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New Class: Shaman

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
make it that there is a delay on placement. Since there are no warm-ups this will provide a time period to allow people to react. (All buff totems should apply buffs instantly)
All other changes I'm cool with, but this one...
1) Totem skills can't have warms (just stating this to clarify)
2) Code for delayed first fire was removed
3) I'm not sure a delayed first fire helps. Instant gives a cheap shot, sure, but already people immediately run from a totem. Not to mention the higher cost already makes placement more of an investment.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
All other changes I'm cool with, but this one...
1) Totem skills can't have warms (just stating this to clarify)
2) Code for delayed first fire was removed
3) I'm not sure a delayed first fire helps. Instant gives a cheap shot, sure, but already people immediately run from a totem. Not to mention the higher cost already makes placement more of an investment.
I should stop trying to please everyone :p
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
I will say that I have not used Shaman in group fights yet, but from what I have seen and my knowledge of PVP mechanics and happenings that the buff totems will almost never be used in PVP and when they are it's because the player does not know what they are doing or clicked the wrong macro.

Simply put the duration is to short for the limited benefits.

Primal vs Shock -
  • Each member standing near the totem gets an increase of 10 melee damage per hit.
  • EVERY enemy within range of the totem takes 30+ damage every two seconds
Ancestral vs Shock -
  • Each member standing near the totem gets an increase of 10-30 damage from INT based spells.
  • EVERY enemy within range of the totem takes 30+ damage every two seconds
Same goes to the healing totem, although there is a chance it would be used in combat, healing your group for 31 hp is a lot less then dealing 50 damage to the enemies. Situationally viable but still often the lesser option.

Force Totem would be good in tight quarters and could disable an entire group in a dungeon or inside buildings and I am not sure that it really needs any love. IMO it can be situation-ally used in tight quarters and if it's modded to be stronger will most likely make it to strong in small areas.

Firestrike Totem I actually like and think it complements ShockTotem well. I would not suggest removing it but making it more situational. Lower the base damage to 15 and keep the fire ticks at 50 over time with the same scaling on damage. This will allow players to use it as a sprint breaking disruptive damage spell as opposed to the pure damage of shock.

CleanseSpirit is very underwhelming with it's two second warm up. I don't see why it's there as the spell is not that powerful. It already has a HUGE cooldown for a heal, it does not need a 2 second warm up.

Engulfing totem I have not tested this totem yet, but if it does apply slow 3 then I believe it will find it's place in use. The agility debuff is honestly completely fluff as you will not find a Ranger standing near this totem trying to fire.


Suggestions:

Primal Totem/Ancestral -
change the buff duration to (30 + 1 per Wisdom point) seconds. Upping the Str amount or adding secondary attributes will not help the fact that it just does not do enough to beat out the other totems. This will allow the Shaman to cast it right as combat starts and then recall it to switch to another tote, costing the Shaman mana and forcing a little prep but still not over powered.

Firestrike Totem - Reduce base damage from 35 to 15 and maintain the scaling and fire ticks. Keep this totem at level 15 and use shocking totem to help speed up the leveling once the player gets into the harder levels.

CleanseSpirit - Remove the warm up completely(or set it to 1 second max) for this huge cooldown low to moderate heal.

Engulfing Totem - Remove the Agility debuff, I cannot see this effecting anything with the speed 3 debuff already there.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
The point of the agility nerf on engulfing is mainly to prevent mobility classes from escaping (I'm looking at you goons/ninjas :p)
In the case of the other ideas I like them.

The concept of using ancestral/primal as a mass buff before battle sounds better than keeping it active (If you go back you can see that discussion I had with naomi about primal totem)

In the case of Cleanse Spirit, reduce the warm-up to 1-1.5 seconds and make it remove more debuffs?

Also, @Kainzo whats your opinion of adding an "Ancestral Totem?"
 
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0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Let's change range then. Make Shock and Force medium range, firestrike very long range lower dmg, and make the buffs/debuffs long range.

As for a buffed force in a small hall, it'd just do what it does now, you'd hit you head and fall.
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
Let's change range then. Make Shock and Force medium range, firestrike very long range lower dmg, and make the buffs/debuffs long range.

As for a buffed force in a small hall, it'd just do what it does now, you'd hit you head and fall.

Regarding Force, it sounded like more effects were being considered. Higher knock up would work I suppose, as long as the player has time to get away from the totem.

Engulfing Totem seems fine, I don't think we need to mod it.

The problem with the buff totems is they do not do enough, not the range. Even if it was +90 STR thats +32 damage to a single target per LANDED melee hit. Instead of 50 damage to EVERY target in an 8 block radius. It just does not make tactical sense. Perhaps a +30 buff to Int, Str and Wis would give enough of a buff to offset the difference of the 25dps from shock.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Regarding Force, it sounded like more effects were being considered. Higher knock up would work I suppose, as long as the player has time to get away from the totem.

Engulfing Totem seems fine, I don't think we need to mod it.

The problem with the buff totems is they do not do enough, not the range. Even if it was +90 STR thats +32 damage to a single target per LANDED melee hit. Instead of 50 damage to EVERY target in an 8 block radius. It just does not make tactical sense. Perhaps a +30 buff to Int, Str and Wis would give enough of a buff to offset the difference of the 25dps from shock.
Maybe change primal into STR and Stamina Regen and Ancestral would be INT and Mana Regeneration? How does 45 second duration on the buff sound?
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Shocktotem is getting the the axe (for now) until a better method of sound can be found - we may just remove the lightning effect altogether in favor of particles (sparks?)

Firestrike needs a change to allow missing. Add projectiles like Firewave used to do (obviously we don't want the one shots though!)

All totems will probably adopt a long (60s) cd to offset placement, probably the best bet for balancing it.

The class has too many offensive skills, with shocking-strike, the offensive totems/etc - it needs to be a bit more tame.

Here's the class line up. We need to make this more of a support class and less of a jack of all trade with super beef-cake damage. I think adding in a SpellPower totem in place of one or two of these will satisfy the damage, with changing how Firestrike damages as well.



ShockingStrike: (OFFENSIVE)
level: 1
mana: 125
cooldown: 10000​
TotemRecall: (N/A)
level: 5
cooldown: 10000​
CleanseSpirit: (Support)
level: 10
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000
delay: 2000​
FirestrikeTotem: (OFFENSIVE)
level: 15
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000​
EarthernFury: (OFFENSIVE)
level: 20
mana: 100
cooldown: 10000​
HealingTotem: (SUPPORT)
level: 25
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000​
EngulfingTotem: (SUPPORT/OFFENSIVE)
level: 30
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000​
HealingSurge: (SUPPORT)
level: 35
mana: 200
cooldown: 30000
delay: 2500​
PrimalTotem: (SUPPORT)
level: 45
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000​
ForceTotem: (SUPPORT)
level: 50
mana: 200
cooldown: 20000​
WindGale: (OFFENSIVE)
level: 55
mana: 150
delay: 1000
cooldown: 15000​
Reincarnate: (SUPPORT)
level: 60
mana: 275
cooldown: 45000
delay: 8000​
ChainLightning: (OFFENSIVE)
level: 65
mana: 150
cooldown: 25000
delay: 1500​
 
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0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
@Kainzo ""sucks at everything" isn't a fair assessment of an entire class setup"

Shaman is a class that to actually live as you need to run and use your mana wisely.
You can spam the normal skills for a few seconds, sure, but then what? You're going to have no mana to work with.
The only way you can sustain mana is through totem use constantly, hence the idea to raise mana cost on them so that it's an investment to throw one out. TotemRecall wasn't coded just to spam totems, it was coded so that you could have placing one as a mana investment while being sustainable to people who actually have skill.
Even with emeralds, all you'd be able to do while spamming totems is use three, and even then spamming totems for just a tick or two is wasteful to the point of not getting much of any return on your mana use which would be all of it because of how totemrecall works.
The Totem skills themselves aren't even like other class' skills. This isn't Wizard, the Totems are situational. You don't Firestrike/Engulfing/Healing/Force/Shock while slowly backing away. At that point, you'd either be spamming them for no effectiveness or not moving.
In a combat situation someone can just charge you (you're squishy as hell) and you either have to run and abandon your totem (which is STATIONARY) or you get murdered because you have useless/reduced heals and no other way to survive.
The only two totems that actually work in all situations are shock and firestrike. Healing (as with all its heals) are too low to be of any practical use (remember that one totem thing?), force does nothing to be useful at all, and engulfing/firestrike have such short range that the enemy is past it in two seconds.
EngulfingTotem: (SUPPORT/OFFENSIVE)
Engulfing? Offense? It's a slow, it deals no damage, it has such a short effect duration and you can run right past the totem just fine. All it does is allow an ally maybe one or two (if they're lucky with land placement) hits. It's support.
Firestrike in particular uses fireballs, which means it only hits once or twice during the entire duration because of the no dmg ticks the fire causes.
Firestrike needs a change to allow missing.
Run around a corner, run behind something, use Earthwall, place two blocks. It's homing but it's not a guaranteed hit. Combine that with the long tick duration and it's not that hard to avoid. The hardest time you'd have is in regioned plains and even then the moment you're out of range you're good.
Primal? +10 dmg per swing doesn't accomplish anything when the enemy is running (away from the totem that GIVES you the buff, I might add, so you get one hit for the investment of an entire totem)

It's one thing to support others, but this thing really does suck at everything without shock.
We can fix that, but listening to Uin shout "60 SECOND COOLDOWNS OR IT'S SO OPPPPP" isn't the way to do it. If you add the changes you said, you have one totem that does dmg that isn't even useful (circle of fireballs? really? walls stop the fireballs as is, the only 100% hit dmg is shock) and the rest of anything possibly useful are skills that still have long cooldowns, don't accomplish much of anything and eat all your mana.

TL;DR/Clarification: I don't mind nerfing offense, but as it stands it *is* useless without, so support needs buffs. Also, I don't like your implementation idea. Once it's changed to work as it was intended it'll be fine.

EDIT 1: Firestrike clarification
EDIT 2: More firestrike clarification
EDIT 3: Engulfing clarification
EDIT 4: TL;DR added.
 
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Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
I can see Naomi's hesitation to actually turn it into a functional longer term buff, and I can understand it from the standpoint of "It's not what the totems are meant to do."

So, to an extent I would backtrack from the longer duration and attempt to make them of equal situational value as the other Totems.

Malik's suggestion of Adding Stamina regen and Mana Regen might pull it off if the numbers were perfect. To much and it quickly becomes too powerful and to little and it will have the same effect.

Gotta think we are dealing with the question - What replaced a 8block AOE 25DPS with a slight knockup? In what scenario does a player drop this damaging disruptive spell to cast Primal? As it stands now, even if all the other members of his group are melee toons, they will not do more damage then Shocking does. If the damage is slightly increased and there was a secondary effect like stamina regen, then perhaps it would be a usable option when there is a large amount of melee toons in the group making it usable in specific instances..
 

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
I can see Naomi's hesitation to actually turn it into a functional longer term buff, and I can understand it from the standpoint of "It's not what the totems are meant to do."

So, to an extent I would backtrack from the longer duration and attempt to make them of equal situational value as the other Totems.

Malik's suggestion of Adding Stamina regen and Mana Regen might pull it off if the numbers were perfect. To much and it quickly becomes too powerful and to little and it will have the same effect.

Gotta think we are dealing with the question - What replaced a 8block AOE 25DPS with a slight knockup? In what scenario does a player drop this damaging disruptive spell to cast Primal? As it stands now, even if all the other members of his group are melee toons, they will not do more damage then Shocking does. If the damage is slightly increased and there was a secondary effect like stamina regen, then perhaps it would be a usable option when there is a large amount of melee toons in the group making it usable in specific instances..
I'm all for swapping Shock out with support, making Firestrike more situational and leaving it with normal skills for offense.
I just don't like Kain's implementation.
As for buff totems, I just see longer duration (to an actual extent, not just one second) as making it like Rejuventation. I'd leave it at making range longer and maybe slightly longer duration as far as the logic of applying goes. What it applies is a different debate.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Another thing, what do you guys think of changing totem's shape? Instead of a plus sign, how about make it a 2 tall tower with the crystal on top. This would allow for better placement in hilly terrain, while making them less of a obstacle in tight situations.
 

LightningCape

Holy Shit!
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Location
Republic City, Earth Kingdom
Another thing, what do you guys think of changing totem's shape? Instead of a plus sign, how about make it a 2 tall tower with the crystal on top. This would allow for better placement in hilly terrain, while making them less of a obstacle in tight situations.
This is kind of what I thought totems would be originally, considering that's what comes to my mind first when I hear "totem".
Raven_Totem_Pole.jpg
The only major problem I see with totems is the inherent one that cant be removed. Dmg acts like a knockback. Totems like shock and firestrike make shaman nearly untouchable to melee or low ranged skills until they've time expires.
 
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malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
This is kind of what I thought totems would be originally, considering that's what comes to my mind first when I hear "totem".
Raven_Totem_Pole.jpg
The only major problem I see with totems is the inherent one that cant be removed. Dmg acts like a knockback. Totems like shock and firestrike make shaman nearly untouchable to melee or low ranged skills until they've time expires.
I'm sure that Naomi can code out the natural knockback that damage totems are currently applying.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
ATM, when ever you are hurt by a totem, it applies a small knockback effect and interrupts sprinting. Is it possible to make it so that doesn't happen? If not, we can go with he plan of having shock replaced and alter the tick rate on Firestrike Totem so it's less spammy.
 

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
ATM, when ever you are hurt by a totem, it applies a small knockback effect and interrupts sprinting. Is it possible to make it so that doesn't happen? If not, we can go with he plan of having shock replaced and alter the tick rate on Firestrike Totem so it's less spammy.
1) Kain doesn't want shock at all anymore.
2) You should know far too well that firestrike doesn't even hit much and has a low tick rate already.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
What do you guys think about lowing the range in which you can place totems? Currently it's 24-ish. Maybe lower it to 12 (Or possibly lower, but scales with WIS?)
 

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
What do you guys think about lowing the range in which you can place totems? Currently it's 24-ish. Maybe lower it to 12 (Or possibly lower, but scales with WIS?)
Requires code changing to even add in, much less configure.
 
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