Karma System Conception...

[Haxnn]

Maybe neutral could also be something and not just the starting point. A way to balance PVP with building. It would be nice to have fewer rewards, but fewer risks for neutral players. They could have strange perks and titles.

Possible titles:

K10 [Observer]
K5 [Insitefull]
K1 [StandBy]

They could have things like faster mana regeneration or the skill farsight. Just minor things that would be fun to have.

Different Karma could get different armor (Dyed).

Evil can use red dyed armor, good blue and neutral black.

 

[PanFlake]

Looking at the thread right now, GOOD seems to be a lot better karma choice than EVIL. At 10k Evil there is level loss on death while Good is just a larger XP loss. Also, there are no positive modifiers for being Evil. I feel it is more sided with Good. Lastly, what if you were dueling town members? Would you not gain or lose any karma while fighting your own townies?

 

[Carbash]

@digger the way you want to play as an "evil" kill everyone you see, rob everyone mentality makes it a chore for people who arent so like minded to do just about anything. Consider that you get everything from us when you kill us. you take our hidden chests our inventory and then you camp us. Now im not directing this all at you, but it seems that everyone has to play your style or not get a chance to play at all. Its probably worse for new people trying to establish themselves.
At lvl 10 there is a huge target on their back, no chance what soever to get a foothold on the server and are forced underground to be capable of doing much of anything. This makes for a poor looking server (because noone wants to build on it).

Now what i feel this will do is give you more of a challenge, which isnt a bad thing.

That said I see a few possiblities with this, one you can make the ability scan useful by allowing the caster to check the persons alignment. (think dnd) You arent going to know peoples intentions right off the bat. Also I would recommend that if you are a good town, you have rules in place that you must follow. Such as you may not attack someone out of the blue. People visiting your town are free to come and go as they please (unless your scan reveals them as evil). It will be the town officials job to punish anyone who disobeys. This could open up to new spells like mask alignment and all sorts of goodies.

No rules apply to evil towns except whatever rules they place on themselves.

I dont know but you may want to have alignment restrictions for classes as well, i dont see a good dreadknight making sense nor do i see an evil paladin being reasonable either.

Quests could be in place that add either way to your alignment.

As for pros and cons, Evil characters should gain progressively more xp from killing anyone, good should get progressively less for pvp (good or bad) Good characters dont see killing as a positive action so it should not be rewarded even if it is against an evil character.

Max Evil characters should not lose a level, perhaps a half level (Reason for this is that when an evil character loses a level its not a big deal, all they have to do is go kill a few people again to gain it back.)
Max Good characters should lose less xp upon death (considering they are the targets and they gain so little from pvping) .

Now for my last suggestion, this i feel would be a really good idea.

Everyone gets 1 /good or 1/evil a day. If you feel someone is helpful you may give them a /good <playername>
and it increases thier good bonus if they have wronged you you can /evil <player> them and they go down a notch. I suggest you only get one a day and can only use it once a day so that it cannot be abused. Other than quests i forsee this as being the only way to raise a character to max good, so that good people are compelled to help others.

Thanks for hearing me out



*edit* I believe no coin should be involved, just exp bonesses and losses

*edit2* At max either alignment /good or /evil no longer works, The only way to reverse the changes is to pay coin to a neutral shrine to bring you back to neutral. Also suggest adding srines and alters to pay coin to alter your alignment, I know its alot... sorry

 

[Psychokhaos]

Maybe neutral could also be something and not just the starting point. A way to balance PVP with building. It would be nice to have fewer rewards, but fewer risks for neutral players. They could have strange perks and titles.

Possible titles:

K10 [Observer]
K5 [Insitefull]
K1 [StandBy]

They could have things like faster mana regeneration or the skill farsight. Just minor things that would be fun to have.

Different Karma could get different armor (Dyed).

Evil can use red dyed armor, good blue and neutral black.

Wouldn't really work. Maybe a title for being Neutral for a certain amount of time, but not sure if possible.
Why: It's a number line, from -10,000 to +10,000.
-10,000 = Pure Evil
o = True Neutral
10,000 = Pure Good

 

[PanFlake]

Maybe neutral could also be something and not just the starting point. A way to balance PVP with building. It would be nice to have fewer rewards, but fewer risks for neutral players. They could have strange perks and titles.

Possible titles:

K10 [Observer]
K5 [Insitefull]
K1 [StandBy]

They could have things like faster mana regeneration or the skill farsight. Just minor things that would be fun to have.

Different Karma could get different armor (Dyed).

Evil can use red dyed armor, good blue and neutral black.

I don't think dyed armor would be possible

 

[Graink]

Not be abused? Towns could easily /good their own members, and /evil others. This would be a super exploit. They could target certain players, (say yourself) and have 40 - 80 players all /evil you then kill you over and over for rewards.

 

[Haxnn]

Yeah makes sense. It was just an idea .

 

[Graink]

I don't think dyed armor would be possible

Colored leather

 

[PanFlake]

Wouldn't really work. Maybe a title for being Neutral for a certain amount of time, but not sure if possible.
Why: It's a number line, from -10,000 to +10,000.
-10,000 = Pure Evil
o = True Neutral
10,000 = Pure Good

I think this is what he means or how I think it means:

Pure Evil= -20k |||||||||||||||-15k|||||||||||||||||||-10k
Neutral= -10k||||||||||||||||0|||||||||||||||||||10k
Pure good=10k||||||||||||||||15k||||||||||||||||20k

^^^This is how I would create my Karma system, although the numbers don't have to be like this.
EDIT: Fixed my typo for the neutral bar. -10k|||||||0|||||||10k <<<no longer negative

 

[PanFlake]

Colored leather

But how would that work? Like you would need a texture pack wouldn't you?

 

[malmenca]

I think the karma system in and of itself is interesting and could be good, but Graink and digger said it; Those who are of a certain playergroup (builders crafters etc...) gain benefits from doing nothing. I can't wrap my head around why, when this server claims to cater to many different play styles and preferences, a specific playergroup isn't treated equally. **

If you want a system in which there are 2 "teams" (2 1/2 cuz of neutral I guess) you shouldn't make one significantly worse than the other, otherwise people won't go that team. There is no way to achieve being good without the evil side, and if evil is bad to be, everyone will remain neutral and you've just created a system that functions, but people don't participate in because it's lopsided.
-Take the karma system from DayZ. In self defense u killed someone, u were still labeld bandit.
-Even if u can check who attacked first, that doesn't necessarily mean that person is evil. If it could be checked who attacked first, I would ensure I was hit first to avoid the negative, yet I would still be the raider and the evil guy.


Furthermore, lets say I am an evil motherfucker, but I want to become good. And now I am raided by some "good" mofo's. What do I do? Let them raid my shit in order to not get more "evil-ness"? I am stuck in a perpetual evil state, even though it was self defense to kill good people.

The main problem I see is that you cannot check the intentions of people through code in minecraft. It isn't like fallout where intentions are pretty clear and the other end of the "Sword" is an npc who has a clear-cut set of actions; For example when u shoot a d00d in Megaton its clear you are the aggressor.





**If u want to eliminate PVP fucking eliminate it.

 

[Haxnn]

I think this is what he means or how I think it means:

Pure Evil= -20k |||||||||||||||-15k|||||||||||||||||||-10k
Neutral= -10k||||||||||||||||0|||||||||||||||||||-10k
Pure good=10k||||||||||||||||15k||||||||||||||||20k

^^^This is how I would create my Karma system, although the numbers don't have to be like this.

Yeah thats what I'm thinking of. Or with neutral going up form the center instead of to the side.

 

[Iarbobray]

But how would that work? Like you would need a texture pack wouldn't you?

That's coming in the new update. You can dye leather.
EDIT: I think it's called the pretty scary update.

 

[PanFlake]

Oh

Yeah thats what I'm thinking of. Or with neutral going up form the center instead of to the side.

Oh yeah typo, I put -10k on the left side instead of the positive 10k

 

[Joka10]

(Note, I started typing this a while ago before most of these posts were made... might not work as well now)

This looks good to me... When I first heard Karma mentioned back in DG, I wasn't too fond of the idea, but it seems to be working out.

My only issue is that there are kind of two types of Evil on the server currently. There are those who just like to PvP, and kill everyone they find in the wilderness. Then there are those who camp graveyards, track new players, rob everyone, camp towns in massively unfair fights, and so on. I don't really feel like those two groups should be treated equally.

There should maybe be multiple forms of Good and Evil in the Karma system (confusing, I know).

• True Good- This is the alignment of people who actively go around killing Evil, saving new players, and all that sort of thing. They would get the positive and negative effects mentioned in the OP. They would also get all the titles mentioned above based on where they fell in the scale.

• Coincidental Good/Average Good- These would be the people who are a little more Good than Neutral, but not really True Good. They might occasionally raid an enemy, or defend their town, and probably avoid killing new players and doing Evil stuff, but they aren't really out there to get massive Karma on the Good side of the scale. These would get minor positive and negative effects that would affect the gameplay a little bit, but not nearly to the extent of True Good/Evil. They would only really get a title like [Citizen], whereas the Average Evil would get that in red, just to show that they are leaning a little towards evil, but not really.

Then there's Evil, which is a little more complicated, because I see it as having more depth to it.

• Jerk Evil- These are the scum of the server who go around camping graveyards to get kill titles, tracking new players for fun, camping towns that have no chance of fighting back, and the stuff like that. They are Evil, but they don't have any sort of honor whatsoever... Generally hated by a lot of people already, they would probably get more negative effects than good effects. They would get Evil titles, but they would be more along the lines of [Bandit], [Murderer], [Scumbag] P)

• True Evil- These are like the Evil form of True Good, in that they are mostly after hitting the Evil end of the Karmic scale. They hunt Good and Neutral players, do Evil stuff, but aren't just jerks. They aren't the people that stoop to camping and the like. They get the positive and negative effects mentioned in the OP. They would also get similar titles (though something other than Murderer).

• Coincidental Evil/Average Evil- These people aren't really looking for any sort of Karmic value, and get the Karmic value they have off of occasional raids, defending town against people who are considered Good, and doing moderately Evil things. They don't get much in the way of positive and negative effects. They would just get [Citizen] in red as opposed to green or something, showing that they aren't really that evil, but are leaning that way.

Lastly, Neutral/Passive.

• Passive- These are the people who just aren't active in PvP at all. They are usually new or just sit in town. They don't get any positive or negative effects. They would get a bland white [Citizen] or something along the lines of that when their Karma was checked. That would be the only special thing they'd get.

• Neutral- These are people who are active in PvP, but don't care who they kill. They don't do stuff like camp graveyards, but just walk around the wild killing people. People who did that would sort of hover between Average Good, Average Evil, and Neutral. There wouldn't be any positive or negative effects for Neutral, but they would be somehow denoted as active PvPer's. Their title on a Karmic check might be [Vagabond], or something similar, showing that they are not really good or evil, but are still PvP-active.

Essentially, I don't think every player just falls into Good, Neutral, and Evil. You could group all people who do Evil things into one group and call it Evil, but you would have a very large variation between people in that group, and they wouldn't neccessarily all deserve the same positive and negative effects. The same is true for Good and Neutral, but not as much. The real issue that I see right now is the whole Jerk Evil/True Evil difference. I feel like there should be a branch within Evil to differentiate the two.

That was really complicated, and probably impossible, but if it were possible, I personally think it would work a little better than the initial proposition (which I do think is great; I just see a couple potential flaws).

 

[malmenca]

#like #what #Joka #said. Too bad it is very complicated.

 

[Psychokhaos]

I think this is what he means or how I think it means:

Pure Evil= -20k |||||||||||||||-15k|||||||||||||||||||-10k
Neutral= -10k||||||||||||||||0|||||||||||||||||||10k
Pure good=10k||||||||||||||||15k||||||||||||||||20k

^^^This is how I would create my Karma system, although the numbers don't have to be like this.
EDIT: Fixed my typo for the neutral bar. -10k|||||||0|||||||10k <<<no longer negative

Karmic Points:
For starters, You start at 0 karmic points. If you kill someone that is GREY or BLUE aligned, you will get say, -10 points. This doesn't immediately move you to the RED alignment. This moves you closer to RED alignment. We can set the amount necessary in order to be aligned with RED Say you go on a killing rampage and you kill 5 GREY, this means that you have -50 karmic points. You would now be aligned with RED.
The scale would look something like this.
<RED-||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||-------GREY-------|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||-BLUE>

That's how I interpreted the scale shown, as the number line I posted here.

Wouldn't really work. Maybe a title for being Neutral for a certain amount of time, but not sure if possible.
Why: It's a number line, from -10,000 to +10,000.
-10,000 = Pure Evil
o = True Neutral
10,000 = Pure Good

@Kainzo - Which of these is it? Unless I missed something, it appears to be number line.

 

[Carbash]

man this kinda sucks, the raiders who are making the server a pain to play on have a valid point, and the people who want to play the way they want to and not have pvp constantly forced down their throat have a valid point as well. Perhaps killing the same person more than once in a certain duration increases your karma, once at max karma you risk losing a level or 2 at death. The same should apply if you kill within a certain range of a graveyard (i know that means alot of people who dont want to pvp as much will congregate their buildings near graveyards, but maybe thats not that bad because they can defend eachother)

If your karma reaches max upon your death you will not rez at the nearest graveyard you will rez at the farthest.

 

[ddrheretic]

I loved the uo karma system. Except you could grind rats to become a great lord... Poor rats...

 

[SemajArchMage]

Killing someone within the same karmic influence will yield minimum gains.

And maximum losses I would hope. Blue on Blue crimes should result in a large karma loss or someone being Blue/Red/Grey/Purple wouldn't make a difference in them posing a threat. In fact, the smart PVPers and clever griefers would just grind their blue points up on red guys then PK other bluebies who trusted them to be saints. As long as you have enough karma points to spend on the murder, you can continue masquerading as a sheep when you're truly a wolf.

Regarding all the complaints about the flaws of the system, what about the ability for PLAYERS to decide whether to punish someone for killing them? If you decide to punish, the penalty is severe, and typically reserved for jerkwads. But if a townie accidentally murders you or you're just out PVPing random people who also like to PVP, they can choose not to punish you and the penalty would be minor. Essentially there should be two different penalties... a light offense automatic penalty, and a heavier offense punishment penalty.

Perhaps implementing PVP flags can also help alleviate issues. If you want to PVP with NO karma penalties, you enable your PVP to ON and are then free to kill players who are also enabled as PVP ON. But if you kill someone who is PVP OFF, you still suffer the karma penalties because that individual did not want to PVP. In this way, people who simply enjoy mass murder can run amok killing like-minded mass murderers and not have to worry about the karma penalties involved. They would still get the occasional penalty for blue kills, but it would be much less severe over time, especially with karma decay resetting them closer to grey.

Finally, to encourage PVP in its finest, balance must be achieved between good and evil. Since Evil currently gets all the free loot from murdering blue players (and let's face it, an evil player rarely carries any loot), perhaps setting automatic bounties onto them would be beneficial. It would be in a Good player's best interest to seek out and hunt down Evil players, fostering PVP between the two factions. The Evil players are thus rewarded by illegitimate gains from neutral players while the Good players are rewarded for keeping the server safe from them and retribution for their crimes. Hunting down evil players for a righteous reward sounds very much like what a good player does, but it would also make evil more wary of them. Thus both sides would get the same penalties for being too evil or too good. The good players have monetary rewards while the evil players have item rewards, and both are encouraged to kill each other.

It's the concept of PK and anti-PK that I found most engaging about the Rallos Zek server in EQ.

So those are my thoughts on the system.
- Punish/NoPunish karma variation for kills
- PVP flagging for the gungho Hero enthusiasts
- Bounties for Evil to breed Good/Evil wars