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Suggestion Dread Knight Harmtouch Idea

teddytazer

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Location
Brampton, Ontario
that was my one problem being dk. they usually run. and there was no way to catch them. Least being necro I can web them before they escape. Sure empathy has added slow now but what good is that when they outta range and running away.
 

Aetosion

Obsidian
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
(Before we begin, let's note I'm a Samurai. The Warrior class intended to have the best DPS of all the Warriors.)


Yes, I often run if a DK begins the engagement, because they can nuke 61% of my health if I fight back. If I don't fight back they can only nuke 36% of my health. Empathy at least has its limitations, and even that nukes for less than the unlimited insta-nuke.

I'm good, but not good enough to fight against someone when I'm starting with 33% of the health of my opponent (given my class's HP after Emp/HT relative to a DK's HP- not even considering armour), especially when there's so many other attacks the DK has.

Harmtouch is wicked, impossible to defend against, and far too strong.
 

teddytazer

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Location
Brampton, Ontario
Yet a samurai. can do the same damage as harmtouch every 3 strokes of this sword. there is no 15min cd on that. doesnt require mp. And inversion whats the damage on that when said Dreadknight has no mp?
 

Aetosion

Obsidian
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Meh, not high enough level for inversion yet >.>

Sword strikes are dodge-able, block-able, knockback-able, and mitigate-able with armour etc. Harmtouch is kind of OUCH. Dreadknights also have axes, they might night do as much damage, but it does a fair bit of damage as well. >.>

Empathy is a similar function to Inversion, Harmtouch has no requisites. It just goes boom.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
It ignores armor too. If a Samurai's sword ignored armor nobody would complain about HT, because three swings of their sword really would be as effective as HT!
 

HolyRane

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Location
In your mothers pants
Going to copy and paste this from my original post for Dreadknight suggestions. The math has changed some, but not anything really game changing.
Ok well lets start off with how DreadKnights are currently looking.
Bash - 10 physical damage and interrupts spells being cast
Disarm - Disarm target for 3 seconds
HarmTouch - 35 dark damage Cost 10 HP 0 Mana 15 minute CD
BecomeDeath - 120 seconds of underwater breathing
ManaFreeze - Prevents your target from regenerating mana for 15 seconds.
Curse - 50% chance for the target to miss attacks
Decay - 21 damage over 21 seconds Cost 25 Mana 10 second CD
SoulLeech - Drain 13 health over 10 seconds, restores 10 of your own health Cost 15 Mana 12 second CD
Empathy - Deals damage equal to 100% of your missing health and slows for 3 seconds, cap of 25 Cost 35 Mana 20 second CD
Any spell with Orange text at the end, sadly is all a Dreadknight has to run to be effective in killing any opponent. Any spell not given Orange text is something that is either for Utility, like BecomeDeath, or pointless, like ManaFreeze. While i'm on the subject of ManaFreeze, with the increased mana pools of casters, this spell has now become pointless because by the time either the DreadKnight or the caster die, their not out of mana, this is mainly due to burst damage from both sides and replenish (Not saying replenish is bad). How I see Dreadknights, are a class that are less Tanky than a Paladin, which right now they are, and a class that has more damage than a Paladin, which they have far too much more damage. If it were down to a 1v1 fight, Dreadknight vs any class, the Dreadknight would almost always win if they have their HarmTouch avaliable, this is where the majority of bitching complaints from the community are coming from. I personally hate the whole idea of Harmtouch anymore, its far too powerful and it really does almost put us in an unstoppable state when it comes to any 1v1. I frown upon using Harmtouch in any fair 1v1 fight for this reason, its just too strong. Heres an example of how most Dreadknight fights go, which the addition of harmtouch.
Decay - 21 damage 21 seconds. The Dreadknight is down 25 mana, 75/100
SoulLeech - 13 damage over 10 seconds. The Dreadknight is down 15 mana, around 65/100.
^^ Easily spammed until the target is tagged with it, even when being silences/interrupted.
Auto attack of 6 damage each
Bash - 10 damage/Disarm - 3 second disarm
Auto attack of 6 damage each
Auto attack of 6 damage each
Auto attack of 6 damage each
Bash - 10 damage/Disarm - 3 second disarm
Auto attack of 6 damage each
Now at this point, the fight is most likely lasted around 20-25 seconds, so lets do some math :eek:
For the sake of ease, lets say this has went 25 seconds long. So we have a Decay, which has taken a toll of 21 damage from the target. Next up we have SoulLeech, which has also taken 13 health from the target, and returned 10 to you. So that alone is 34 fire and forget damage. Now I think its far to say the average health is somewhere from 90-100 on most players. So lets go with 100 for again the sake of ease. That is 34 health from their 100 hp leaving them with 66 health, just from two dots. Now we get to add in the Auto Attacks, which in all honestly you only NEED to do about 4 auto attacks at most. So 4 auto attacks at 6 damage each comes to 24 damage, so that leaves the target with 42 health. Rotate a bash in there for 10 damage and it comes to 32 health. Now at this point, they are within one hit kill range of Harmtouch... But of course we also have to add in the other persons damage inflicted on the Dreadknight. All I typed out above will honestly take a total of 10 seconds of work on the Dreadknights part, the rest is done by the dots. Now of course the Dreadknight is taking damage, which works so much more to his/her advantage than the person inflicting the damage. Empathy, with a cap of 25 damage, and dealing 100% of your missing health is usually used as a finished/slow to prevent running. So back to the fight, the Dreadknight at the point of 25 seconds is most likely around half HP, if the opposition isn't the average idiot pvper. So we have a burst 25 damage coming in along with the 3 second slow onto the target. How this is normaly used by Dreadknights that know their rotation is once they hit half HP they know their dots have taken their toll on the player so all they need to do is pop a Harmtouch for 35 damage and immedietly after a 25 damage Empathy for a total of 60 damage in a matter of seconds. So go back to where I said the dots ended their damage and the auto attacks have hit. That leaves the person with around 32-42 health, without Bash. Thats an overkill of around 18-28 damage, both of which are instant cast spells.
Now what can be done about this? Well we have a few options that won't destroy the Dreadknight class, while still keeping it balanced.
Decay - Lower its damage to around 10-15 with a 15 respective 10-15 second CD
SoulLeech - Make this a drawn out Dot, currently it does 13 damage over 10 seconds. Make it somewhere around 13-15 damage over 20 seconds. When I hear Leech I expect something that takes it time to kill you. Doing this will also delay the health gain to the Dreadknight, which is always a lifesaver.
Harmtouch - Honestly I would love to see this spell scrapped, its far to overpowered with no realy equal among the Warrior classes. If anything I would say nerf it to around 10 damage with a 2-5 min CD.
Empathy - Love the cap of 25 damage, its much better than before, the Slow gives it utility also, big plus. I would say leave it as is, not really a huge factor without the other spells weighing in.
Auto Attacks - I would say lower their damage to 5, 6 seems to be too much for their tankiness.
No you're being absolutely ignorant. Decay does 12 dmg over 20 seconds, it's almost useless. Soulleech does 10 dmg over 20 seconds and heals you for 9 AFTER the 20 seconds.

So if you run into a fight with harmtouch -> Harmtouch -> Empathy = 60 DMG, decay = -12 dmg OVER 20 seconds -> Disarm -> Smack x 20 till empathy -> empathy again. Hopefully you have won. WITHOUT harmtouch DK's cannot win in a 1v1 against a sammurai, it's not possible. Harmtouch is NOT OP, you guys are being close minded to this idea.
 

c12095

Holy Shit!
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
No you're being absolutely ignorant. Decay does 12 dmg over 20 seconds, it's almost useless. Soulleech does 10 dmg over 20 seconds and heals you for 9 AFTER the 20 seconds.

So if you run into a fight with harmtouch -> Harmtouch -> Empathy = 60 DMG, decay = -12 dmg OVER 20 seconds -> Disarm -> Smack x 20 till empathy -> empathy again. Hopefully you have won. WITHOUT harmtouch DK's cannot win in a 1v1 against a sammurai, it's not possible. Harmtouch is NOT OP, you guys are being close minded to this idea.

Do you know how to read the first line of a paper?
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
curse is a great skill and I used it alot as a DK, Don't see any DKs I fight use it.... thought maybe it was removed or something.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
I agree, Dreadknights rely to much on Harmtouch, that doesn't mean buff it @HolyRane imo. It may make the class unique to Kainzo, but skills like Bladegrasp, Mortalwound and Inversion make samurai unique, yet it doesn't require me to use those skills to win a fight. So maybe a small tweak to other skills other than harmtouch, and a change to harmtouch so that Dreadknights don't have to rely on the cooldown of harmtouch to win a battle.

I didn't use harmtouch much when I was Dreadknight, back then it costed 99% of my mana, they changed it and I immediately thought it was way op, because you could literally burst an instant 60 hp, and then some with drainsoul. Here's what harmtouch is to me - mortalwound in an instant 35 dmg shot. Because similar to mortalwound, you use it when you see the opponent is low on health, and tries to use an HP II potion. it's different because it's not a bleeding skill and does approx. 20 more dmg. Also, while mortalwound is not nearly as powerful as harmtouch, harmtouch requires.. i believe 12 stamina, and all 3 of the samurai's unique skills cost 10 stamina.

The reason you're wrong that any samurai can beat a dreadknight without harmtouch, is because in order to play samurai, you need to know how to play samurai. Meaning you can't just run into battle and spam 5 skills at once like dreadknight can. You need to conserve stamina, use your skills at the right time, and watch chat. It's not just tank, swing, smash buttons to use random skills, repeat.

For example, like I said about all our main skills that are "So amazing compared to Dreadknight's skill loadout", cost 10 stamina, and disarm I believe is somewhere around 8. That means, we can use 2 main skills at the start. ONLY 2. And honestly, inversion is COMPLETELY 100% USELESS in 9/10 battles because all it's really good for is killing geos and wizards, and most people seem to be migrating toward stamina based classes. Mortalwound is not needed, since it was nerfed, until late battle where you know they have potions and you don't want them to get that burst of health. Which, may I add, requires you to conserve even more stamina.

Heck, I rarely use bladegrasp in battle, think I've used it maybe 10 times out of the 100s of battles I've fought, just because I find myself too fatigued whenever I want to use it.

Idk, just my two cents, I don't see what the fuss is about, be grateful you have this insta nuke leading to a win for every single 1v1.
 

HolyRane

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Location
In your mothers pants
I agree, Dreadknights rely to much on Harmtouch, that doesn't mean buff it @HolyRane imo. It may make the class unique to Kainzo, but skills like Bladegrasp, Mortalwound and Inversion make samurai unique, yet it doesn't require me to use those skills to win a fight. So maybe a small tweak to other skills other than harmtouch, and a change to harmtouch so that Dreadknights don't have to rely on the cooldown of harmtouch to win a battle.

I didn't use harmtouch much when I was Dreadknight, back then it costed 99% of my mana, they changed it and I immediately thought it was way op, because you could literally burst an instant 60 hp, and then some with drainsoul. Here's what harmtouch is to me - mortalwound in an instant 35 dmg shot. Because similar to mortalwound, you use it when you see the opponent is low on health, and tries to use an HP II potion. it's different because it's not a bleeding skill and does approx. 20 more dmg. Also, while mortalwound is not nearly as powerful as harmtouch, harmtouch requires.. i believe 12 stamina, and all 3 of the samurai's unique skills cost 10 stamina.

The reason you're wrong that any samurai can beat a dreadknight without harmtouch, is because in order to play samurai, you need to know how to play samurai. Meaning you can't just run into battle and spam 5 skills at once like dreadknight can. You need to conserve stamina, use your skills at the right time, and watch chat. It's not just tank, swing, smash buttons to use random skills, repeat.

For example, like I said about all our main skills that are "So amazing compared to Dreadknight's skill loadout", cost 10 stamina, and disarm I believe is somewhere around 8. That means, we can use 2 main skills at the start. ONLY 2. And honestly, inversion is COMPLETELY 100% USELESS in 9/10 battles because all it's really good for is killing geos and wizards, and most people seem to be migrating toward stamina based classes. Mortalwound is not needed, since it was nerfed, until late battle where you know they have potions and you don't want them to get that burst of health. Which, may I add, requires you to conserve even more stamina.

Heck, I rarely use bladegrasp in battle, think I've used it maybe 10 times out of the 100s of battles I've fought, just because I find myself too fatigued whenever I want to use it.

Idk, just my two cents, I don't see what the fuss is about, be grateful you have this insta nuke leading to a win for every single 1v1.
But you can't beat sammys w/o HT... that's the problem.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
that means you rely too much on harmtouch so harmtouch should be nerfed, other skills buffed.

You want to make it worse by making Dreadknights even more harmtouch-dependent.
 

ShizzDawgg

Godly
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Location
Roswell, GA
No you're being absolutely ignorant. Decay does 12 dmg over 20 seconds, it's almost useless. Soulleech does 10 dmg over 20 seconds and heals you for 9 AFTER the 20 seconds.

So if you run into a fight with harmtouch -> Harmtouch -> Empathy = 60 DMG, decay = -12 dmg OVER 20 seconds -> Disarm -> Smack x 20 till empathy -> empathy again. Hopefully you have won. WITHOUT harmtouch DK's cannot win in a 1v1 against a sammurai, it's not possible. Harmtouch is NOT OP, you guys are being close minded to this idea.
DREADKNIGHT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A TANK HYBRID WITH LOW-MID DPS, NOT A DPS CLASS LIKE SAMURAI. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!
 
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