Paladins/other balance things

[Kainzo]

So today I hit a paladin 300 blocks and did 25% of my diamond shovels durability and still didn't kill him. Dreadknight have been nerfed (even though not much) and dragoons have been nerfed really hard. Why have paladins remained untouched? They are impossible to kill unless you're a caster and even then I doubt that'd be a fight a caster would want to deal with.


Edit: Balance has just fucking gone out the window. Geomancers are doing 6-7 hearts in one deep freeze to a lvl 55 dragoon. I'm hearing that wizards are one shotting people as well.

what skills were they using? endurance or what? We don't work off of 'im hearing' - we need hard evidence and to be able to reproduce it.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

what skills were they using? endurance or what? We don't work off of 'im hearing' - we need hard evidence and to be able to reproduce it.

Yeah the pally could've used layhands.

 

[Diffuse]

what skills were they using? endurance or what? We don't work off of 'im hearing' - we need hard evidence and to be able to reproduce it.

I did about 30% of my shovel's durability (main post had low estimate). 1562 uses (according to wiki)/2 (for not hitting dirt though dirt would have fought back better) = 781 max hits. 30% of 781 hits = 234 hits. 234 hits x 7 damage per hit = 1640 damage. I believe he did use layhands and it was a long fight so food healing was a factor, but being able to survive that much damage is ridiculous. Someone should check my math or something, but also note that I am not counting in the 10-15 impales that also were in there. Yes, I am aware that endurance reduces the damage by a bit, but nothing should ever be able to survive getting hit for 300+ blocks without ever sprinting (he also occasionally stopped and we had short 1v1s where I'd hit him 20ish times before he started to walk away again)

I've had similar experiences with dreadknights though they don't last as long. The difference though is that it seems a dreadknight can hit me with melee for about 3 hearts and his spells can do the rest before I can kill him. Geomancers are doing more than half my health in a deep freeze and I can't kill them fast enough between freezes to win a fight.

As for the "I'm hearing," that was because I have little to no experience fighting wizards. I have been seeing tons of complaints in o chat about wizards though and looking at numbers they seem to be just as dumb as geomancers.

I feel that dragoons are slightly on the overpowered side, but being dominated completely by far inferior players really makes the ridiculousness of some specs stand out.

Some suggestions:
-Deep freeze break on any damage
-Ice bolt slow duration slightly shorter (1s or so shorter)
-Dreadknights down to iron boots, legs and chest with chain helm.
-Paladins down to what dreadknight has now
-Drain soul mana cost (DK) up to 20 or 25
-Ninjas/thiefs get chain boots as well (assuming wiki is correct atm)
-Deep freeze and root cooldown up to 20-25 seconds (maybe 20 for root and 25 for freeze since geos get slow)
-Impale to an 8 second cooldown
-Bleed to 15 mana cost

 

[shrimpy77]

I did about 30% of my shovel's durability (main post had low estimate). 1562 uses (according to wiki)/2 (for not hitting dirt though dirt would have fought back better) = 781 max hits. 30% of 781 hits = 234 hits. 234 hits x 7 damage per hit = 1640 damage. I believe he did use layhands and it was a long fight so food healing was a factor, but being able to survive that much damage is ridiculous. Someone should check my math or something, but also note that I am not counting in the 10-15 impales that also were in there. Yes, I am aware that endurance reduces the damage by a bit, but nothing should ever be able to survive getting hit for 300+ blocks without ever sprinting (he also occasionally stopped and we had short 1v1s where I'd hit him 20ish times before he started to walk away again)

I'm scared to approach paladins, I can never kill one due to this insane tanking.

 

[whitemagehealu]

Dreadknights and Paldins need to be balanced bad. Dreadknights have to much damage and damaging skills to even begin to think they are balanced with this armor and hp they have.

Paladins just outright tank any damage but still give it just fine with soulfire and if they ever do get low hp they will just layhands. >_>

 

[zZHeroInSoup]

Paladins arent op ffs quit your bitching. but geos are something we could agree on XD

 

[zZHeroInSoup]

Paladins arent op ffs quit your bitching. but geos are something we could agree on XD

 

[KainBullet]

Paladins arent op ffs quit your bitching. but geos are something we could agree on XD

1+ For geos being OP (For more reasons than the 1hit ko lightning)

 

[zZHeroInSoup]

Guys paladisn are fine the way they are.

Dreadknights and geos are the ones to be focused on.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Some suggestions
-Dreadknights down to iron boots, legs and chest with chain helm.
-Paladins down to what dreadknight has now
-Drain soul mana cost (DK) up to 20 or 25

I disagree with 2/3 of these. Dreadknight armor is fine as is, and paladins, from what I've seen, are tanks as they should be. Drainsoul on the other hand, is the only truly over powered skill Dreadknights have. It does 10 dmg, that heals the caster 10 hp and has a 15 mana cost and a 5 second cooldown. This skill has a RIDICULOUS range (Some 15 or so blocks). This skill is basically the only thing i need in combat along with endurance (which is passive aafter casting) and occassionally decay. BecomeDeath is an extremely useful skill in water combat. I dont agree with changing drainsoul to 20-25 mana. We already have a ton of skills that cost to much to be practical in combat. We will be underpowered if all our skills cost 25+ mana to use because we wont be able to us any of them once we've casted 2-3

The main reason for Drainsoul being OP, is it's cooldown. 5 seconds makes the skill spammable, and FAR better than any other skill we obtain since empathy is currently broken. I think the idea of nerfing Dreadknight armor will simply fuck them over and turn them into a class they were not meant to be.

Diffuse, i know you're upset that you havent been able to kill me. But look at it this way: impale is an EASY skill to combat if you know how to do so. The other day when you attacked me, you just spammed impale and run up to me and tried to tank me. Bad idea: everytime you impaled me i disarmed you and hit you away at any chance you gave me. You made the mistake of fighting me up close. The only reason why I, as a dreadknight are OP, is because I have a ranged attack that if you do try and back off and fight a dk like you should fight a dk, I'd just drainsoul the shit out of you. You got barely any decent hits on me with your shovel, and suddenly you're complaining in o chat about how you hit me a billion times, despite the fact 1/2 the time it was with your fists.

 

[gooscar]

Paladins arent op ffs quit your bitching. but geos are something we could agree on XD

No, Paladins ARE op, and so are Geomancers. Look I got off of my "I don't want a nerf QQ" mindset and can talk about my own class, learn to do the same. Paladins can be hit for as long as the want to, dealing out pretty decent damage. The issue with Paladins is that once you have got through their MASSIVE hp due to armour, they then layhands and it's time for round 2. This makes a Paladin near impossible to fight unless you can avoid taking damage at all simply because you cannot regen your lesser amount of health as fast as they can.

 

[Diffuse]

In case you didn't notice, I was hitting you 4 or more times for every 1 that you hit me greek. Even if half were with my fists that still puts me at a major advantage. Also note that I wasn't just mashing impale, I disarmed you at least 2-3 times as well. The fact that a dreadknight can tank so insanely well while being able to put out decent damage through only abilities is ridiculous.

I may be very arrogant when it comes to pvp, but the only time you should ever be able to beat me in a real 1v1 fight is when your spec way outclasses my own. Having 1v1ed tons of people I realize that there are some that can just beat me (actually the only people that have consistently beaten me in fair 1v1 melee fights have all been banned for reach hacks lol), but you are not one greek. The only reason is because dreadknights outclass dragoons by a ton even when dragoons outclass every rogue, every healer, and every caster but geomancer.

Nerfing drain soul will not be enough, as even without it your natural tankyness outclasses everything but a paladin. There is no solid counter to dreadknights except ranged classes and the only thing nerfing drain soul will do is help casters and ranger vs you. Other than that all melee are still going to get fucked badly simply because it takes them 100 hits to kill you and you only 50 to kill them. The reason why dreadknights and paladins are op (and dragoons before the nerf and still a little after) are because armor in 1.0 got a buff that was absolutely ridiculous. Nothing should be able to take that long to kill. If Kainzo wants fights to last longer then change health pools and damage values, but don't throw a really dumb factor in like armor as it just causes problems. The only ways I see to nerf paladins and dreadknights are to reduce the armor they can wear because it absorbs way too much, or to make a sweeping buff to everyone elses damage so that they are actually able to put a dent in you. The former is clearly better and easier as in order to balance things out with the latter, every melee besides paladin and dreadknight would need to get at least 3-4 damage on their weapon which would lead to more problems mostly focused around rogues dying too fast.

TLDR: I whine about greek being carried by his spec. Paladins are op because of too much tank, dreadknights because of a mix of too much tank with too much damage.

Edit: Also note that the only people who don't think dreadknights are op, are dreadknights. The only people who don't think paladins are op, are paladins. And the only geomancer agrees that they are op.

 

[zZHeroInSoup]

Ok paladins are fine the way they are... they barely can do any damage so dont bash on them until you try them.

This is supposed to be hardcore pvp not complain.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Diffuse, you're too fucking cocky about PvP. While I agree DK is OP, stop whining about people being able to kill you. You're acting like Maxomillion in saying if you die from someone, that class is suddenly overpowered. You want to know why I know Dreadknight is not so bad? The first time you came outside my town screaming random bullshit about feathers, I came out to kill you, and despite you having only pants on, you still got me down to 4 hearts, even with my full armor. Mostly because I didn't use drainsoul more than twice.

Next time you came, you failed and got 3 total hearts on me after my armor was already half broken.

 

[Dielan9999]

Ok paladins are fine the way they are... they barely can do any damage so dont bash on them until you try them.

This is supposed to be hardcore pvp not complain.

Maybe you should try healer ;D

~~~~~

Anyways on topic: I think paladins are fine the way they are. @Diffuse warriors aren't meant to do that much physical damage, more than healers but Rouges and Casters are intended to do more damage than warriors. So you should buddy up with a high damage dealer if you want to take a pally down, or with a healer to keep you going. They can't hurt you very much, but as a dragoon you can provide a really good distraction for a higher damage class to sneak up and beat the shit outta him.

 

[zZHeroInSoup]

Maybe you should try healer ;D

~~~~~

Anyways on topic: I think paladins are fine the way they are. @Diffuse warriors aren't meant to do that much physical damage, more than healers but Rouges and Casters are intended to do more damage than warriors. So you should buddy up with a high damage dealer if you want to take a pally down, or with a healer to keep you going. They can't hurt you very much, but as a dragoon you can provide a really good distraction for a higher damage class to sneak up and beat the shit outta him.

Thank you dielan

 

[GreekCrackShot]

@Diffuse You've NEVER fought me before this map. How the FUCK can you say that I am not as good as you and that my class is the only reason I am good at this time? You need to get your shit straight and realize that just because you got lucky in some 1v1's, doesn't make you better than everyone else. This has turned into a flame war because of you and has made us NO progress in making warriors more balanced.

I've beaten you 4/4 times I've fought you. Once when I did not have Drainsoul either.

 

[Delta788]

@Diffuse Paladins are fine the way they are and maybe if you looked at my skills you would see why i lived so long. on another note i do have to say that Geo are a bit over powered due to their combo they can do but who cares just deal with it, a game will never be perfectly balanced due to people not agreeing on that a perfect balance is. That is what makes the game diverse with classes. If the game was perfectly balanced how would you ever win a 1v1? You would be doing the same damage as your target and both die or both just live.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Haha, trust me, I was not someone you wanted to encounter in classic minecraft PvP. Lol, that's something I did not lose often in

Except @strongholdx beat me in fisticuffs ;-;

 

[Dielan9999]

I think everyone should relax.

Dragoons have very little attacking skills. Sure Impale will slow your enemy but it doesn't REALLY hurt them. Cleave is more of a mob hunting skill. Dragoons are good at distracting high HP classes because they DO hurt, have armor, and are really mobile. However if you could distract a Dreadknight or Paladin (like Greek and whitespot, but not at the same time) while he's doing his routine against you, you could have a ninja come up behind him with backstab, or even have a wizard bolt him, or both. All while he's distracted with the Dragoon. If he turns and tries to take out the Ninja or Wizard, the Dragoon just zips back into battle and starts using impale and hurting him for 7+ damage a melee, thus forcing the DK or Paladin to turn around and start getting distracted with the Dragoon again.



You gotta work with your friends. Paladins are a little easier to 1v1 with because you can out damage them, however it's a real challenge to get around their healing skills. Dreadknights don't really have a healing option except drainsoul(but it's not great) but they hurt more than Paladins, so it's just a battle of attrition. A battle a clever and careful Dragoon could win.



tl;dr
Only Luke Skywalker could take down an AT-AT walker by himself, and even he had help.