Paladins/other balance things

[Dielan9999]

oops double post

 

[gooscar]

@Diffuse You've NEVER fought me before this map. How the FUCK can you say that I am not as good as you and that my class is the only reason I am good at this time? You need to get your shit straight and realize that just because you got lucky in some 1v1's, doesn't make you better than everyone else. This has turned into a flame war because of you and has made us NO progress in making warriors more balanced.

I've beaten you 4/4 times I've fought you. Once when I did not have Drainsoul either.

Greek has never been bad at PvP since as long as I've been on this server... lol

Edit: Also note that the only people who don't think dreadknights are op, are dreadknights. The only people who don't think paladins are op, are paladins. And the only geomancer agrees that they are op.

This is kinda true, I admit I did it for a while too, nerfs suck
But DKs / Palis are OP, Greek is the only DK I know that can admit flaws in their balance haha

 

[gooscar]

EDIT; Double post ._.

 

[ShizzDawgg]

@Kainzo Something seriously needs to be done about a ton of these specs. Wizards and geomancers are decimating anything that isn't a paladin or wizard/geo.

Guess who is a caster rapist? :3
<----

 

[ShizzDawgg]

I did about 30% of my shovel's durability (main post had low estimate). 1562 uses (according to wiki)/2 (for not hitting dirt though dirt would have fought back better) = 781 max hits. 30% of 781 hits = 234 hits. 234 hits x 7 damage per hit = 1640 damage. I believe he did use layhands and it was a long fight so food healing was a factor, but being able to survive that much damage is ridiculous. Someone should check my math or something, but also note that I am not counting in the 10-15 impales that also were in there. Yes, I am aware that endurance reduces the damage by a bit, but nothing should ever be able to survive getting hit for 300+ blocks without ever sprinting (he also occasionally stopped and we had short 1v1s where I'd hit him 20ish times before he started to walk away again)

I've had similar experiences with dreadknights though they don't last as long. The difference though is that it seems a dreadknight can hit me with melee for about 3 hearts and his spells can do the rest before I can kill him. Geomancers are doing more than half my health in a deep freeze and I can't kill them fast enough between freezes to win a fight.

As for the "I'm hearing," that was because I have little to no experience fighting wizards. I have been seeing tons of complaints in o chat about wizards though and looking at numbers they seem to be just as dumb as geomancers.

I feel that dragoons are slightly on the overpowered side, but being dominated completely by far inferior players really makes the ridiculousness of some specs stand out.

Some suggestions:
-Deep freeze break on any damage
-Ice bolt slow duration slightly shorter (1s or so shorter)
-Dreadknights down to iron boots, legs and chest with chain helm.
-Paladins down to what dreadknight has now
-Drain soul mana cost (DK) up to 20 or 25
-Ninjas/thiefs get chain boots as well (assuming wiki is correct atm)
-Deep freeze and root cooldown up to 20-25 seconds (maybe 20 for root and 25 for freeze since geos get slow)
-Impale to an 8 second cooldown
-Bleed to 15 mana cost

Damn, that sounds perfect o.o

 

[Diffuse]

There is little to no skill involved in melee minecraft pvp (it seems to mostly be about connection). It only matters who hits whom more, and I hit people more than they hit me. It is a simple assumption that if I am hitting you more than you hit me and am using all offensive skills at my disposal yet I still lose, there is a clear imbalance. There is no clear way to fight a dreadknight except to hope that you can outhit him to such an extent that you win.

Also @Dielan9999 , saying that they are balanced because you can group up on them is really a bad way of proving that it is ok. Multiple people vs one will almost always go in favor of the group. In a 1v1 fight dreadknights simply never lose except to geomancers and they are still good in a group fight because they have decent damage output.

Also greek, the only personal insult that was even implied by me before you actually called me out was directed toward delta. I literally hit the guy 20 times more than he hit me and when he got into no pvp he started shouting shit like "You mad?" and other stupid things of that nature.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

There is little to no skill involved in melee minecraft pvp (it seems to mostly be about connection). It only matters who hits whom more, and I hit people more than they hit me. It is a simple assumption that if I am hitting you more than you hit me and am using all offensive skills at my disposal yet I still lose, there is a clear imbalance. There is no clear way to fight a dreadknight except to hope that you can outhit him to such an extent that you win.

Also greek, the only personal insult that was even implied by me before you actually called me out was directed toward delta. I literally hit the guy 20 times more than he hit me and when he got into no pvp he started shouting shit like "You mad?" and other stupid things of that nature.

You said you were better than me. That's personal. Just because you "hit someone more than the oppenent" doesn't mean you "auto-win". In a perfect world, in say, classic minecraft pvp, yes, that would be true. Because anyone in that system can wear diamond armor and use diamond swords and bows.

I have better armor then you, more health, and a healing skill, that although overpowered, does NOT need to be nerfed to shit to make Dreadknights normalized. I also use my skills wisely and if you would read chat would show I was ALSO in endurance, meaning I take 8.749% less dmg from each hit you do. You're asking for nerfs the will turn paladin and dreadknight away from their original purpose: tanking. Once again, you fought me all wrong, and just cuz you lost to me in 1v1s 4 times in a row doesn't warrant a nerf. I honestly thought you were better than this and I've lost a ton of respect for your play style and opinion.

You exaggerate nearly all of your accusations.

Example:

30% of 781 hits = 234 hits. 234 hits x 7 damage per hit = 1640 damage.

Seriously, you expect us to believe you hit someone 234 times while walking at a constant rate for a distance that you probably exaggerated too?

This lead to a faulty argument that has simply been blown out of proportion due to these harmful claims. You know how I know you're exaggerating? You have conflicting accusations more than once:

So today I hit a paladin 300 blocks and did 25% of my diamond shovels durability and still didn't kill him.

I did about 30% of my shovel's durability.

I understand you said "My original estimate was a bit wrong in terms of durability", But why not edit the first post and not leave me with something to accuse you of lying about?

Edit: Also note that the only people who don't think dreadknights are op, are dreadknights. The only people who don't think paladins are op, are paladins. And the only geomancer agrees that they are op.

Also note that I have not claimed my class to be balanced. I have clearly stated more than once, I know it's OP, I'm saying you're suggestions will make dragoons and samurais OP compared to DK and pally, and we'll be right back where we started from. You, once again, and failed to see the light in what really matters. You're too busy looking to put yourself on top, but don't think for a second that you may just be making matters worse for the rest of us.

You are suggesting RADICAL change for the TANKS of paladin and dreadknight, that will just hinder us in the long run. I, once again, NEVER said Dreadknight is balanced, but they can be EASILY fixed with a simple nerf of drainsoul.

EDIT: You make these claims, with no presented proof, and you expect the staff to just blindly nerf tanks to kittens? So you can just plow through them like butter and claim yourself to be the great PvP'er you believe you are? You are mistaken buddy. Next time you decide to make such reckless accusations and personal insults; Get proof, think before you post, and act less like my sister.

 

[mt51784]

Pick your targets so far all classes I have noticed have some classes that just can beat them. I avoid Samurai/Wizards at all cost as a bard. This is the way all mmorpg based games are balanced to were you will have equals and classes you should just avoid. Get someone who can kill the pally and focus on a target class for your class. All I hear lately is one class is op Q.Q seriously guys all it means it you need to go back to the drawing board and find a way to win.

 

[Diffuse]

I wrote a massive post describing tons of errors that I see with your post but I really don't feel like constantly arguing about this. You admit dreadknights are overpowered and I appreciate it. We disagree about the extent of their overpoweredness, but the real question remains that if so many people agree, why has nothing been done about it? The least that @Kainzo could do is drop a cooldown/range nerf on drain soul that you believe is necessary and see where that leaves the spec and leave my more massive changes until after we see if it really is necessary.

Also I don't give a damn if my spec is on top, I just want it to have a fighting chance against others (and it currently does against everything but the classes mentioned). If paladins get nerfed to be equal to or even below samurais and dragoons, I would be more than happy to switch to it.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Also I don't give a damn if my spec is on top

Sorry to go on, but you basically said that, "if a different spec can kill me, it's OP." You made it personal by directing the post towards me. That makes me feel like all you want to be is the best, and if your spec isn't better than the others, that's a problem and/or something to QQ about. This was most likely not your intention, and I understand that, but the way you went about complaining/suggesting this should be changed was one positioned in the wrong direction.

 

[Jorict]

We should all just spec the same class! BALANCE!

 

[Dielan9999]

Well @Diffuse , I don't mean to imply that one class that counters more than half the other classes in the game is ever ok in 1v1. However Dragoons shouldn't be able to take Dreadknights if both were properly balanced. It just doesn't make sense.

A ninja, thief, maybe necro, geo, maybe samurai, ranger, maybe disciple SHOULD be able to take a DK in my opinion. The high damage compensates for the high armor and HP of the DK. The rouge classes need to worry about not getting hit, casters too. The samurai might win a face to face slapfight, but that's pushing it.

 

[Dielan9999]

oops double post

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Casters are the warrior killers, Warriors are the rogue killers, rogues are the caster killers, and healers are the support. More deep, I agree with Dielan in saying that balance that you're asking for wouldn't make sense. You shouldn't be able to tank a Dreadknight as a Dragoon. In my opinion, if every single class was balanced perfectly, there would be no use for Heroes and we would be back to Minecraft classic pvp because someone is gonna complain that someone always has something better than someone else.

 

[Kainzo]

We're continuing to balance and adjust to make things fair.

 

[Predator2010]

We're continuing to balance and adjust to make things fair.

Is Geo Getting our Firewall back soon or a "Replacement" ?

 

[shrimpy77]

You said you were better than me. That's personal. Just because you "hit someone more than the oppenent" doesn't mean you "auto-win". In a perfect world, in say, classic minecraft pvp, yes, that would be true. Because anyone in that system can wear diamond armor and use diamond swords and bows.

I have better armor then you, more health, and a healing skill, that although overpowered, does NOT need to be nerfed to shit to make Dreadknights normalized. I also use my skills wisely and if you would read chat would show I was ALSO in endurance, meaning I take 8.749% less dmg from each hit you do. You're asking for nerfs the will turn paladin and dreadknight away from their original purpose: tanking. Once again, you fought me all wrong, and just cuz you lost to me in 1v1s 4 times in a row doesn't warrant a nerf. I honestly thought you were better than this and I've lost a ton of respect for your play style and opinion.

You exaggerate nearly all of your accusations.

Example:

Seriously, you expect us to believe you hit someone 234 times while walking at a constant rate for a distance that you probably exaggerated too?

This lead to a faulty argument that has simply been blown out of proportion due to these harmful claims. You know how I know you're exaggerating? You have conflicting accusations more than once:




I understand you said "My original estimate was a bit wrong in terms of durability", But why not edit the first post and not leave me with something to accuse you of lying about?


Also note that I have not claimed my class to be balanced. I have clearly stated more than once, I know it's OP, I'm saying you're suggestions will make dragoons and samurais OP compared to DK and pally, and we'll be right back where we started from. You, once again, and failed to see the light in what really matters. You're too busy looking to put yourself on top, but don't think for a second that you may just be making matters worse for the rest of us.

You are suggesting RADICAL change for the TANKS of paladin and dreadknight, that will just hinder us in the long run. I, once again, NEVER said Dreadknight is balanced, but they can be EASILY fixed with a simple nerf of drainsoul.

EDIT: You make these claims, with no presented proof, and you expect the staff to just blindly nerf tanks to kittens? So you can just plow through them like butter and claim yourself to be the great PvP'er you believe you are? You are mistaken buddy. Next time you decide to make such reckless accusations and personal insults; Get proof, think before you post, and act less like my sister.

But then again, Endurance lowers the damage he does by 13.75% at lvl 55 .
Meaning, 7 - 13.75% = 6 dmg. + The armour decrease, which could be making him do about 4/hit.
Drainsoul heals 10 hp, with 15mana to use, and a 6 second cooldown. Also, don't forget your max hp is 123.
So really, you culd do about 8 drainsouls in 48 seconds, meaning 80 hp is healed, 80 hp is dealt.
So let's add 80 hp to your max, making 203.
So here we are, theoretically, if he was hitting you and you weren't healing from food, it would take 50 hits to kill you. But no, you have your hunger bar healing you also, and some skills to support doing damage.

From this, IMO, it is safe to say that DK is OP, not just because it can kill Diffuse, but it can kill any other classes/people as well. So don't accuse @Diffuse of saying any class that can beat him is OP.

P.S. Don't reply to this because I'm not in the mood for a flame war.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Once again, I did not say Dreadknight isn't OP, I said DRAINSOUL is the MAIN thing that's OP, which is being FIXED.

 

[shrimpy77]

Also note that I have not claimed my class to be balanced. I have clearly stated more than once, I know it's OP

Hm?

 

[GreekCrackShot]

You're just restating what I already said. If you're trying to contradict my last statement, you need to re-read. what I wrote:

Once again, I did not say Dreadknight isn't OP, I said DRAINSOUL is the MAIN thing that's OP, which is being FIXED.