Final Attribute Stats vs Base Attributes

[Egorh]

What is the point of decreasing the stats? I actually thought you would increase it. This just makes mana-based or healing classes useless.

I think you may be getting stats per level, or at certain levels that work up to the final build (I am not completely sure about this)

 

[Kainzo]

What is the point of decreasing the stats? I actually thought you would increase it. This just makes mana-based or healing classes useless.

There's several ways to go about it - but as I stated numerous times - a number crunch has to happen. When and if items start giving +10 to a single stat, big things will start happening.

You cant go from "top" and then go over it. This is the balancing effect.

 

[Kainzo]

I think you may be getting stats per level, or at certain levels that work up to the final build (I am not completely sure about this)

Attributes will ONLY come from buffs or items. These will be starting attribute points.

 

[MalaWolf]

But reduced stats will make classes such as Goon/Zerker alot stronger initially - and turn the game into a "who has the better gear/ more teime to grind for rare mob drops" than another player leaving new players at a worse advantage then it is now.

With those reduced stats - people won't be using skills as much because of harsh manna costs, they won't be doing as much damage and skills such as lunar lance will remove a large % of classes manna - making them even worse.

It will also make it harder for new players who don't have custom items, and leveling to gain attributes (as it is now) isn't nearly as bad as hoping for lucky item drops (that players who grind will have)

IMO it's a bad idea Kain. Keep them as is, because even with high +10 weapons/armor, it's not going to be as bad as this.

 

[Kainzo]

Pushing these forward now on Visions:

 

[Irishman81]

Pushing these forward now on Visions:
can

With these changes, most of the classes that you can't attribute dump into got hit pretty hard, especially the casters/healers. Let's take beguiler for example: with already shit mana regen, having 14 wisdom will make leveling and low level pvp just based on kiting for mana regen. The damage and healing for the rest of the casters/healers are also going to make the warriors very very strong.

 

[Kainzo]

With these changes, most of the classes that you can't attribute dump into got hit pretty hard, especially the casters/healers. Let's take beguiler for example: with already shit mana regen, having 14 wisdom will make leveling and low level pvp just based on kiting for mana regen. The damage and healing for the rest of the casters/healers are also going to make the warriors very very strong.

Mana regen per-level and base regen can be set to fix these issues.

While these aren't the "final" numbers above - its a good base to start with. We have Visions as the testing server during this time to do just that. So test around, give us input and we'll do what feels right.


We arent 100% dead set on the 20-30% reduction but we need people to test on Visions and give us feedback.

 

[Irishman81]

Mana regen per-level and base regen can be set to fix these issues.

While these aren't the "final" numbers above - its a good base to start with. We have Visions as the testing server during this time to do just that. So test around, give us input and we'll do what feels right.


We arent 100% dead set on the 20-30% reduction but we need people to test on Visions and give us feedback.

I'm on visions and the mana regen needs to be set higher

 

[Digger360]

While this opinion is purely qualitative, it seems to be in past builds casters had a considerably lower risk-to-reward in terms of material wealth then warriors. While Paladins, Dreadknights and other such required a bank vault of diamonds and iron to arm themselves to effect, casters merely needed some random odds and ends and like two diamonds to reach potential.

Depending on how attributes are acquired on items, (socketing diamonds?) it seems perhaps this potential equipment unbalance could restore the disparity of wealth required to be combat ready for each class. Perhaps by sacrificing gold or other such valuables a (profession?) could bestow attributes and perhaps unbreaking to leather armors.

 

[Egorh]

Pushing these forward now on Visions:

To me it seems pointless to have all of the stats add up to equal 80. Since we use allocation points all the classes can have the same 'power'. That 25'th point in intellect is worth much more than the 4'th point in charisma. You are treating each stat like it is worth the same value when they are not that way.

The Disciple build (Disc on live) - 262 left over allocation points
The Pyromancer build (Pyro on live. Thanks @whiteninja1970 ) - 234 left over allocation points

Pyromancer uses more allocation points, and can be considered better.

That is the one of the main problems I see. The other problem I see is that these base stats do not really match up with the class that well. For example, Disciple has no need for charisma. Or berserker has no need for wisdom or intellect

 

[malikdanab]

To me it seems pointless to have all of the stats add up to equal 80. Since we use allocation points all the classes can have the same 'power'. That 25'th point in intellect is worth much more than the 4'th point in charisma. You are treating each stat like it is worth the same value when they are not that way.

The Disciple build (Disc on live) - 262 left over allocation points
The Pyromancer build (Pyro on live. Thanks @whiteninja1970 ) - 234 left over allocation points

Pyromancer uses more allocation points, and can be considered better.

That is the one of the main problems I see. The other problem I see is that these base stats do not really match up with the class that well. For example, Disciple has no need for charisma. Or berserker has no need for wisdom or intellect

I agree that it's strange to give attribute to classes which are useless to them. In terms of allocation points, those are gone now and everything is based of a total amount of stats not points.

 

[Watermelon_01]

I know that the system alredy mentioned will probably go through since it's already in dev but can't we just make the att. building like now but without the point system (make each lv. give a certain amount allocation points to be added to attribute(s), ie point cost not determined by attribute level) and make a set of items to buff one's stats based on what att. that item will buff? I see the idea of weapon power being a good idea but then it makes it unfair for the newbs, especially those who can't play for more than like 3 hours a week or something like that. Keep a standardized way that allows the player to decide their powers for themselves and special items to give rewards for effort to players that are dedicated (like a form of donating but with morale support).
And just for those who don't like a spread of time management and items: make the items rarer or make them received for acheivements (hint, hint ), ie a limited amount per player.

 

[Air_Restraint]

That's not how it works. Due to diminishing return - it was like this so players could effective spread more stats if they went the "average" method.

I do understand. but if I could recommend bringing the strength down a little. Maybe to 8?

Edit : Didn't see the new attribute update.

 

[Kainzo]

This is a "base" of attributes - we want all classes to have "some" even in things they don't necessary "need". These are sweeping changes. Things won't be exactly the same but we are moving towards a better system. This is a necessary step.

What I want from you guys is, are the numbers correct? what needs to be adjusted, is something grossly taking up a classes attribute pool and could be used better (without going overboard) etc.

To me it seems pointless to have all of the stats add up to equal 80. Since we use allocation points all the classes can have the same 'power'. That 25'th point in intellect is worth much more than the 4'th point in charisma. You are treating each stat like it is worth the same value when they are not that way.

The Disciple build (Disc on live) - 262 left over allocation points
The Pyromancer build (Pyro on live. Thanks @whiteninja1970 ) - 234 left over allocation points

Pyromancer uses more allocation points, and can be considered better.

That is the one of the main problems I see. The other problem I see is that these base stats do not really match up with the class that well. For example, Disciple has no need for charisma. Or berserker has no need for wisdom or intellect

The entire system is changing. Whether its the 30th point or the 3rd point. It will all be the same for players and they will decide what gear to wear to increase these stats (or buffs to acquire/get).

The old system is scrapped, you cannot use points per-level any longer. The balancing and changes are on the table for debate!

 

[MalaWolf]

You wanted a suggestion?
Been discussing this with @malikdanab and @jazza441

So our Goals when working out the best way to approach this.

• Keep classes balanced - not have one more powerful than other
• Keep pre-selected attributes - we agree allocation was a bad idea
• Keep custom weapons as a neat/powerful addition to attributes
• Have a small/non-existent level severity base it on skill not time/levels

Our Solution -

Set all attribute to 0, and change /stats (hp,magic resist ,mana, mana regen, stamina regan, armor) and skill damage to a realistic value for the maximum attributes of that class. (A standard build as displayed in the inital post) This is the same for the damage on skills and armor weight.

Custom Items will now raise your attributes - and apply the same bonuses they normally would, it's just now they are boosting from 0.

This means that custom items will be the only factor in player/level severity. There will no longer be a growth in attributes as you level up, it's purely on items but not in a way that forces you to rely on them.

Classes are also no longer stunted - there aren't the manna issues that come up from having limited attributes (the preset 80 that currently is on visions).

Realistically this would mean -custom items would only be able to grant 2-5 of a stat (maybe multiple +2's or a rare +10 ect)

For the Base in our suggestion we are looking at the initial post with the non reduced attribute builds.

 

[Kainzo]

Attributes will not be set to zero.

 

[Irishman81]

@Kainzo

• All classes should have at least 0 agility
• Casters/Healers (besides Disciple and Pyromancer and maybe Shaman) don't need like any endurance, put the points into constitution/wisdom
• Buff base mana regen for all casters/healers: right now warriors can just dominate because of a lack of dependence on mana

And can we talk about the base armor??? That really needs to be looked at

 

[MalaWolf]

Then don't reduce stunt classes stats - it's bad for casters who need to stat dump to be competitive in fights, it's bad for classes that spread stats and gives classes such as dragoon an advantage. It's not balanced with a 20-30% reduction because we never planned/balanced classes for that.

 

[malikdanab]

@Kainzo

• All classes should have at least 0 agility
• Casters/Healers (besides Disciple and Pyromancer and maybe Shaman) don't need like any endurance, put the points into constitution/wisdom
• Buff base mana regen for all casters/healers: right now warriors can just dominate because of a lack of dependence on mana

And can we talk about the base armor??? That really needs to be looked at

Basically this. Don't give stats to classes that don't use them.

 

[Egorh]

Then don't reduce stunt classes stats - it's bad for casters who need to stat dump to be competitive in fights, it's bad for classes that spread stats and gives classes such as dragoon an advantage. It's not balanced with a 20-30% reduction because we never planned/balanced classes for that.

^This
Some classes are much better at 'not complete' attributes compared to a different class at the same point.

Classes are normally looked at by their 'max' or by their 'min'. Not normally somewhere inbetween