Suggestion Conceptual Class - Guardian

[Eldrylars]

@Angyles could you do me a favor and change the title of this post to
Conceptual Class - Guardian

 

[Vongard]

@draconis99

 

[Ryunko]

16 class already, we really need more? o-o'

 

[malikdanab]

16 class already, we really need more? o-o'

You can NEVER have too many classes. And considering HC doesn't have multi-classing, this isn't even that much.

 

[Solidze]

You can NEVER have too many classes. And considering HC doesn't have multi-classing, this isn't even that much.

This. But we first must balance the current classes, then we can look in this direction. However, regarding this class....I don't think its what we need. It's too much like a paladin/cleric, something unique as a support class would be cool. Like a chemist who throws potions that supply different buffs out (stronger than alchemist potions), aka a SKILL shot healer.

 

[Angyles]

@Angyles could you do me a favor and change the title of this post to
Conceptual Class - Guardian

Changed sorry for the delay was out of town.

 

[Keache]

PSA: You are able to change the title of threads that you create by yourself

 

[Angyles]

PSA: You are able to change the title of threads that you create by yourself

As of a few months back it was not possible, that is why he tagged me.

 

[Delfofthebla]

In my opinion, this class is not viable for Herocraft for multiple reasons.

1) Little to no offensive abilities is very off-putting. It makes leveling extremely slow and extremely difficult. Additionally, his skillset will provide little actual aid to his leveling experience, and only slightly improve group play. However, group leveling is still a very slow, unviable, uninteresting experience, even with the recent mob scaling changes. It is still more productive to level by yourself, which detracts from group play for power-levelers. Having a few players have to "carry" the guardian is not something that many people will want to do.

The mob scaling has made the above even harsher than ever before.

2) Entirely too powerful for group fights. I understand the "support" should be be useful at supporting, but there are things that can and can't work on Herocraft. As seen through the duration of Bastion, groupwide abilities, be they offensive or supportive, were far too powerful. Might, MassPiggify, Chakra, PlagueBomb, Conviction, Wisdom and GroupHeal were easily the strongest abilities for the majority of the map. All it took was for a group to bring 1-2 of these classes to win every fight. Stacking even more than that lead to a spiraling benefit that was impossible to counter without equal levels of these overpowered classes. Some of these abilities are still topics of issue (such as PlagueBomb). Groups on Herocraft are too large for powerful AoEs to be fair, and this is something the server has still not yet worked out the kinks on. Adding more wood to the fire is not something I think we should do.

2) Too much survivability for a support class. Support classes are monstorous in teamfights--this is why we bring them. However, they can be countered by focusing them down. A truly skilled support player will know this and position himself accordingly in order to prevent being caught. However, the Guardian has no need to do so, as he has enough self-escape and CC that it would be impossible for any group to bring him down. He's a support that brings god-tier levels of usefulness to his party, and yet it is impossible to remove him from the equation. We can interrupt cleric heals, burst down disciples, CC and burst Wizards, outrun warriors. But the Guardian? I don't see it being feasible. This may be exaggerating things, but I would compare it to giving a Cleric jump, blink, and smoke. It just doesn't feel right.

3) Block based skills are prone to lag and desyncing. Do you all remember how unreliable Web was early last map? That's due to the delay required for doing block checks and placing the actual blocks. It's impossible to circumvent this, and while web has gotten a bit better, it's still possible to run out of it without actually being affected by it. I worry that creating more of these skills, and using them for pure CC (defensive or offensive) is likely to cause issues. I'm not 100% on this of course, and if I was more motivated, I'd test it out, but it's definitely not something to ignore.

---
The Guardian class would be required in full fledged teamfights in order to compete at an equal level. It would be likely that any tournament match fought without a Guardian would be nothing more than a waste of time. Overall, if this class were to be implemented, I see the following happening: Only a very very small portion of the Herocraft community would bother leveling the class. I'd wager that Eldry, maybe one to two more from AD, and then a few noobs that think it sounds cool.The noobs would likely not master the class, and AD would tote the class around in every future tournament, forcing the rest of the server to do the same.

That fact itself isn't bad--players should be willing to go the extra mile for the sake of winning a competitive event. However, like I said in point #1, this class would be borderline somebody-please-kill-me-I-can't-take-it-anymore levels of boring to master. I do not believe in forcing the server to go through the agonizing process of leveling a class with no offensive abilities so that they can be on the same level. Cleric is already harsh enough to level, and I'd still argue it's a must for tourny events. I'm especially against it due to me not agreeing with the design of a zero damage support with high levels of defensive / offensive CC in the current HC PvP Meta.

But hey, I'm just a guy. Several of the individual skill ideas are certainly cool, and I've thought of creating the kinda CC that you described in the past (Just check out the bone block constructs on test, if they're still around), however I decided that it was better for the server if I did not create them. Between the teamfight / server issues, it just felt like a bad idea. I know that I barely even play these days, but I really don't think this is a class that should be implemented on HC.

 

[Dakinara]

delf always harshin the mellow lol. although i agree that at least shift would need some kind of cooldown or something cause yeah, no cooldown essentially blink is crazy. Phase seems like an "interesting" escape skill in that its random - would require you adapt quickly after use based on where you end up, but could also just totally screw you over lol.

anyways, lots of cool ability ideas on this class, some may need some balancing but still, kainzo is talking about having access to lots more skills and learning from books or something? maybe some of these could be incorporated if not into new class then new abilities at least.

 

[Eldrylars]

3) Block based skills are prone to lag and desyncing. Do you all remember how unreliable Web was early last map? That's due to the delay required for doing block checks and placing the actual blocks. It's impossible to circumvent this, and while web has gotten a bit better, it's still possible to run out of it without actually being affected by it. I worry that creating more of these skills, and using them for pure CC (defensive or offensive) is likely to cause issues. I'm not 100% on this of course, and if I was more motivated, I'd test it out, but it's definitely not something to ignore.

Yeah, I figured for the smaller 3x3 CC block based spells you would have to create the blocks and then teleport the target to the inside to the correct spot to avoid lag issues.

The larger glass bubble was not intended so much as CC as a short block against spells, similar to the way Earthwall can be used.

 

[Eldrylars]

delf always harshin the mellow lol. although i agree that at least shift would need some kind of cooldown or something cause yeah, no cooldown essentially blink is crazy. .

Yeah, I am surprised no one brought that up before, I never meant to have it on a 0 cooldown lol. I just changed it to 15s. Slightly longer then blink.

 

[Eldrylars]

In my opinion, this class is not viable for Herocraft for multiple reasons.

The Guardian class would be required in full fledged teamfights in order to compete at an equal level. It would be likely that any tournament match fought without a Guardian would be nothing more than a waste of time.

Yeah, that's the idea. In most games with full fledged support classes, they will make or break team fights as that is their sole purpose. Now in a 5v5 Tournament I am not sure that this would be worth the loss in dps, or more important then a team with a Cleric. Hard to say, but in a 10v10 any high-pure support class is going to make a major difference.

Honestly, I cannot stand the hodgepodge class/group makeup in the current HC class lineup. Bard is still broke afaik, Clerics Mana pool is so small that it's dreadfully painful to manage it's mana atm. Wisdom is gone from guilers but they still have the best CC and AOE burst. I was personally never convinced that Chakra was as much an evil as it was to you, but Paladins Conviction was a blessing to groups.

What's fun for me is large coordinated group fights, which I used to run all the time in Bastion, and as you know I was very successful in it. This 3-8 solo class hodgepodge as I have called it so far in Haven has not appealed to me at all and I have thus been much less interested.

Now, all this being said, I know I am as much responsible as anyone else to report and suggest changes to the classes to fix some of the issues I just complained about and how not given it the time it's due, but even with the fixes moving away from coordinated group combat and into hybrid little bits of support spread across 8 different classes is not my idea of a fun time.

I believe there should be a place for:
1-3 person groups consisting of mostly damage with maybe a little support, 3-6 person groups consisting of at least one full on support and then whatever potent mixture you can come up with, and then 6-10 person groups that consist of 2-3 full on supports matched with their dps to make a formidable team.

 

[Eldrylars]

As of a few months back it was not possible, that is why he tagged me.

Thanks!
I jut posted it a little while ago so, so no problem.

 

[Eldrylars]

This. But we first must balance the current classes, then we can look in this direction. However, regarding this class....I don't think its what we need. It's too much like a paladin/cleric, something unique as a support class would be cool. Like a chemist who throws potions that supply different buffs out (stronger than alchemist potions), aka a SKILL shot healer.

It's funny you mention this, because I had a class design sketched that was very similar. Relying on potions, both conjured and Alchemist based. It was not sitting as well with myself, so I never really pushed it forward, but I had started working on a "chemist" class.

 

[Keache]

Just to re-emphasize what Delfofthebla said, that's the problem with a lot of classes that are purely support/defensive. They almost always wind up being the difference between a victory and a defeat between two opposing groups. It's hard to balance around that, and nobody wants that to exist in Herocraft or any RPG game. I love the ideas, they all sound neat, but at the end of the day that's what it really comes down to. Though it's also worth noting that lag and other important issues must be considered.

 

[Dakinara]

meh, i dont think there should be one uber support class that defines a good group, but if your 5 man group cant get at least one bard or cleric or druid or paladin or disciple, etc, someone should respec lol. is a line between having to have one of every support vs just at least one support for sure though.

how else are we gonna get rid of all these ninja / wizard / ranger / dragoons wink wink ^~.

 

[Ultanian]

If this class had an offensive, I think skills similar to pulse would work great, aoes to anyone who gets close.

 

[Eldrylars]

Just to re-emphasize what Delfofthebla said, that's the problem with a lot of classes that are purely support/defensive. They almost always wind up being the difference between a victory and a defeat between two opposing groups. It's hard to balance around that, and nobody wants that to exist in Herocraft or any RPG game. I love the ideas, they all sound neat, but at the end of the day that's what it really comes down to. Though it's also worth noting that lag and other important issues must be considered.

I believe that this is wrong,

It's hard to balance around that,

It's not, if you want to balance around it all you need to do is add MORE support. Don't want to be forced to have a Cleric in your 5 man group? Then create 4 more classes that have strong support to use instead! Don't want to use a support in your 5 man group? Expect to die. as you should. If you want a good and balanced system give players the option to play real and organized combat and balance it by making several viable options, not by removing them.

I believe this is extremely wrong,

nobody wants that to exist in Herocraft or any RPG game

This is just trash talk, you are talking your opinion and smearing it over the faces of everyone, I have talked to more people that want organized large group battles then I have talked to ones that were against it. Saying no one likes the idea of organized fights with actual support based classes is just being blind to reality. Saying that no one wants to have to organize a proper group to have a edge in large battles is an even further streatch.

but at the end of the day that's what it really comes down to

is the difference between players that want to run solo classes/small raiding classes wanting to be viable in large group fights against organized group leaders that want to run competitive groups. It comes down to solo players screaming that a 10 person group of Wizards, Ninjas and Goons would lose against an organized group that includes proper support, and it should.

I don't know if you have noticed or not but dozens of players have seen the writing on the wall and the current distaste for actual organized group fights this map and have left because of it. There is no such thing, all the support classes have been gutted and the only thing to do right now is run teams consisting of random DPS/Solo toons.

Bastion was the pinnacle of large group fights and there were dozens of organized teams that would go head to head creating the best fights and pvp experiences I have had in the two years I have played. Haven has has exactly ZERO organized teams of players because all the support classes have been gutted and killed.

 

[Dakinara]

Bastion was the pinnacle of large group fights and there were hundreds of dozens of organized teams that would go head to head creating the best fights and pvp experiences I have had in the two years I have played. Haven has has exactly ZERO organized teams of players because all the support classes have been gutted and killed.

I agree, although i think part of it is class balance, but also it would help if there was more for towns to fight over. That town v town thing LO / AD was building for olympics sounded awesome, but it sounds like a lot of the people that were working on it have not been playing much lately. I would be more than happy to help with such a thing, although what help i can provide dunno, not much of an engineer or anything lol.