Bible/come to Jesus

[xDaemonic]

Gravity may be a fact to us humans, but we don't know if there is anywhere where gravity is not a fact, therefore making it not not a fact, but also not proven as a fact.

I'm sorry to interject on your argument but...

how is stating that gravity may not exist somewhere else disprove that Earth has gravity being a fact?

Earth has gravity. That's a fact.

Whether or not some other planet has gravity will not change the fact that Earth does.

 

[Weikauno]

One word: what?!

You believe that gravity cannot be conceived a fact because gravity might not be present somewhere else? That is by far the most idiotic statement is recent history.

Here is a simplified version of your silly statement: apples do not exist because they are not present on Mars. Mars is not there because it is not here. My brain is not within my skull because it is not outside my skull. Maggots do not come from fly eggs because maggots do not come from bird eggs. A monkey is not an animal because it is not a plant.

Now I certainly believe you are just playing dumb, for the sake of playing dumb.

look, gravity is not an object, like a monkey or an apple. It is a law. A rule. My statement was simply stating that something is not able to be proven as a fact in the entire universe, because we cannot possibly observe the entire universe, because it is too big. Yet, that may not be true either. All I am saying is, we aren't omniscient so we can't be really sure of anything.

edit: plus, the "scientifically proved facts" that I have been claiming false, are not facts, just theories. They are somewhat possible, but again, such as evolution, they are just as far a stretch as a creator, so there's really nothing to do but research it all your life if you want to, and try to prove it as clearly as gravity is proven. If you can do that, then come back to me then when you can answer any question I give you about evolution.

 

[Jackrox256]

look, gravity is not an object, like a monkey or an apple. It is a law. A rule. My statement was simply stating that something is not able to be proven as a fact in the entire universe, because we cannot possibly observe the entire universe, because it is too big. Yet, that may not be true either. All I am saying is, we aren't omniscient so we can't be really sure of anything.

I was making a comparison, because in essence you are saying exactly that.

Gravity is not a rule, gravity is a part of the universe. The rule you speak of is what we use to explain gravity, gravity itself is not a rule.

Also, how on Earth do we have to be omniscient to be sure of something?

Before I go on, what happens to an Apple when you drop it? It falls.

What happens if I throw you off a cliff? You fall.

The internet is not an object. Yet we are sure of its existence. Neither are radio waves, yet we know they exist because of radios. Air is not an object, but we know it is there because we breathe it. So you are going to honestly tell me you believe that these things are not there because they are not objects? Of course bloody not, unless you just want to disagree to disagree.

We are a part of the universe, yet we do not exist everywhere in the universe. I am apart of the universe as is Earth, as is Mars as are each individual stars. They however do not exist everywhere within the universe.

Gravity exists. You cannot say it does not exist by claiming it does not exist in some unknown planet. You are truly just pulling these things you call arguments out of nowhere.

 

[Weikauno]

I was making a comparison, because in essence you are saying exactly that.

Gravity is not a rule, gravity is a part of the universe. The rule you speak of is what we use to explain gravity, gravity itself is not a rule.

Also, how on Earth do we have to be omniscient to be sure of something?

Before I go on, what happens to an Apple when you drop it? It falls.

What happens if I throw you off a cliff? You fall.

The internet is not an object. Yet we are sure of its existence. Neither are radio waves, yet we know they exist because of radios. Air is not an object, but we know it is there because we breathe it. So you are going to honestly tell me you believe that these things are not there because they are not objects? Of course bloody not, unless you just want to disagree to disagree.

We are a part of the universe, yet we do not exist everywhere in the universe. I am apart of the universe as is Earth, as is Mars as are each individual stars. They however do not exist everywhere within the universe.

Gravity exists. You cannot say it does not exist by claiming it does not exist in some unknown planet. You are truly just pulling these things you call arguments out of nowhere.

Tell me, what do you believe in? If you can tell me in elaborate detail what and why you believe in it, and prove that it is good, then I will listen to what you have to say. But right now so far you have just tried to find all the flaws in my beliefs. Let's take a peek at yours.

 

[Dwarfers]

What does it matter what either of you believe in? Just live your life and stop arguing. I talk about things like this in my English class all the time, not that is matters. lol It all comes down to how/where/who you were raised by for you to get the beliefs you have.

 

[Jackrox256]

Tell me, what do you believe in? If you can tell me in elaborate detail what and why you believe in it, and prove that it is good, then I will listen to what you have to say. But right now so far you have just tried to find all the flaws in my beliefs. Let's take a peek at yours.

You seem to just be ignoring your own flawed statements by changing the argument but if you truly wish to know I am atheist. I do not believe in some supernatural God because there is no proof that he exists.

At this given time I believe in Science because there is proof behind it. if they make a mistake they correct it. They do not try to keep enforcing their experiments as true without proof and if one scientist does they are asked for proof.

I believe in many things and disbelieve in many things. For example I do not believe that if you follow some all powerful being that you will go to heaven when you die. I believe that when you die, you die. But if it turns out I am wrong and someone comes forward with real proof I will change my belief.

If you find a flaw in my belief by all means point it out. I would be happy to address it.

What does it matter what either of you believe in? Just live your life and stop arguing. I talk about things like this in my English class all the time, not that is matters. lol It all comes down to how/where/who you were raised by for you to get the beliefs you have.

I believe this argument is a good thing. It forces me to think and him to think and has rekindled a lot of old and new thoughts for me. His request to hear my belief is fair considering how I am asking questions about his own.

 

[Ostadar]

I find the argument about whether something actually exists or not to be silly. The way any living creature(if there is multiple, see the rest of my statement) observes the universe is inherently flawed in the first place. Every individual piece of data the brain processes is first filtered through one of the senses i.e, the eyes, the nose, etc. Since these sense are not perfect and can be easily tricked the data the brain receives is faulty to begin with.

Let me not forget Brain in a Jar theory as well. Remember The Matrix? For your brain all that matters is data and energy. As long as your brain can continue to function and be fed data your world can continue to exist. That means science, religion, family, friends, the universe in its entirety might only exist within only your mind. It is a distinct possibility.

Also, as a good thing to mention, saying something is a Fact is a Very flawed statement. We know that there is(probably) something that holds massive objects together, we call it Gravity, but we do not know what Gravity is. We do not know how it actually works. We have both Newtons law on it and some theories on it though.

Too bad theories are meant to be changed or dis-proven, or at least that is proper use of the Scientific Method. We only use a theory until we can disprove it.

An addition to my statements. All knowledge has a half-life; It only takes so long before it becomes false and an new "Fact" takes it's place. If I remember right the field of Psychology's half-life is Two years.

 

[EvilThor]

We know that there is(probably) something that holds massive objects together, we call it Gravity, but we do not know what Gravity is. We do not know how it actually works. We have both Newtons law on it and some theories on it though.

All particles will be drawn to each other, because a force between the protons and neutrons (don't kill me if, because this was a horrible way to say it, but I can't come up with a better one). So in theory, if you travel so far from any celestial bodies that you are completely out their gravity zone, you could throw a bad of sugar out in the space, and it would after a long time gather and form a ball-ish structure, this would not happen close to for example earth, because the gravity of earth, will always be bigger than the other sugar particles.

To prove my point, there is a point between all celestial bodies, (earth and the sun for example) where the gravity force is as big from both objects. This results in a constant non gravity "zone".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point

 

[EvilThor]

Well I'm sure there are many theories about this but this is what I think.

Before the flood, in the atmosphere there was a layer of water. In the flood God brought this layer down over 40 days and nights of rain.

This is what I believe caused people to live for so long in Biblical times. The atmosphere before God brought this down was more oxygen rich and better nurturing to the body.

Note: this is my opinion on this subject and it may change

But the water in the atmosphere, where did it come from?
And where did it go afterwards?

(The atmosphere is technically a part of the earth).

 

[Weikauno]

You seem to just be ignoring your own flawed statements by changing the argument but if you truly wish to know I am atheist. I do not believe in some supernatural God because there is no proof that he exists.

At this given time I believe in Science because there is proof behind it. if they make a mistake they correct it. They do not try to keep enforcing their experiments as true without proof and if one scientist does they are asked for proof.

I believe in many things and disbelieve in many things. For example I do not believe that if you follow some all powerful being that you will go to heaven when you die. I believe that when you die, you die. But if it turns out I am wrong and someone comes forward with real proof I will change my belief.

If you find a flaw in my belief by all means point it out. I would be happy to address it.



I believe this argument is a good thing. It forces me to think and him to think and has rekindled a lot of old and new thoughts for me. His request to hear my belief is fair considering how I am asking questions about his own.

Ok. First question. This one's about evolution.

If every living thing started from one single-celled organism and it reproduced and slowly evolved over time, would that mean you are very distantly related to every living thing on the Earth, and would it be murder, and immoral to kill something, such as a cockroach?

 

[Bob_de_Blastoise]

But the water in the atmosphere, where did it come from?
And where did it go afterwards?

(The atmosphere is technically a part of the earth).

In the bible it says God made the mountains rise and valleys sink so I suppose some of the oceans and lakes we have today are made up of the flood water.

I believe either the water was their from when God first created the Earth or he put it their later specifically for the flood.

 

[Ostadar]

All particles will be drawn to each other, because a force between the protons and neutrons (don't kill me if, because this was a horrible way to say it, but I can't come up with a better one). So in theory, if you travel so far from any celestial bodies that you are completely out their gravity zone, you could throw a bad of sugar out in the space, and it would after a long time gather and form a ball-ish structure, this would not happen close to for example earth, because the gravity of earth, will always be bigger than the other sugar particles.

To prove my point, there is a point between all celestial bodies, (earth and the sun for example) where the gravity force is as big from both objects. This results in a constant non gravity "zone".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point

The physics are not the same in the microscopic universe and macroscopic universe, hence Quantum physics. Gravity is less of a factor on atoms and particles that construct them, what does affect them greatly though is the electromagnetic force and strong nuclear force since that allows them to even exist. All Gravity does is cause objects in the macroscopic universe to have an attraction(or pull) over a vast distance in relation to their mass(and velocity since that affects mass). At least that is some of my understanding on this.

In the bible it says God made the mountains rise and valleys sink so I suppose some of the oceans and lakes we have today are made up of the flood water.

I believe either the water was their from when God first created the Earth or he put it their later specifically for the flood.

I have to apologize but I will admit that I am not a fan of that story. There are a few alternate views on it though that I thought up to make it easier to speak with family on the subject.

As I might have mentioned before some scientific theory of the universe does not conflict too badly with the Bible as long as some of the stories written within it are not taken as complete fact. It is an old book and it is very likely that much was written inside of it was a way to explain major events that they could not quite grasp. Science does much the same thing but with scientific method it tries to disprove itself and adapt to new information, but because of that it suffers the same fatal flaw of people taking it as complete Fact.

So as I was saying, the story of a great flood and the earth being covered in water is held by many cultures. Likely though it is just a way to explain how the water on Earth got to be here and since all that people had to observe was rain and flood events within their immediate lifetimes it is easy to come to the conclusion that all water had to come from flooding, especially since the water from floods resides for a length of time.

Added onto this if someone did figure out that the Earth was created or formed by itself and that the water needed to come from somewhere later, the water might have came down in the form of comets and meteors which is a very popular theory on the matter. Who is to say that an all powerful being, i.e. God, did not manipulate the universe in a direct manner to make sure this world was plentiful in water by sending those comets and meteors? It's feasible. On top of that plate tectonics could be a direct design choice by the God that created the universe and let it shape the Earth in its own manner instead of doing it directly.

Study both science and religion, you will get some interesting ideas.

 

[Weikauno]

Alright I admit in those comments, I was being real retarted, and I apologize for not answering your questions well. Anyways, here's something to think about, evolutionists

edit: here's another one.

edit:something to explain a little about my personality, gives a little insight on why I was being retarted, yet it was wrong, I admit and I am sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISTP_(personality_type)

 

[Weikauno]

Here's the answer to that question/statement about "God is evil"/"Why did God create evil?".

http://www.ucg.org/ebooklet/why-am-i-suffering/why-suffering-where-does-it-come/

 

[Weikauno]

Here's about "Hell" and why people aren't tormented for eternity if they disobey God.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/heaven-a...h/will-loving-god-punish-people-forever-hell/

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today-daily/doctrinal-beliefs/do-you-have-immortal-soul

edit: more on the subject. http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-less...did-god-create-mankind/reward-and-punishment/

 

[Weikauno]

Here's something to think about. If the world did not have punishment, then nothing would be stupid. Therefore, character is non-existent. Without evil, there is no free will of choice. If evil didn't exist, we would just be a bunch of robots, and if punishment didn't exist, then we would be really stupid, because being wrong and knowing you are wrong is a punishment mentally, so we would be very simple minded beings knowing nothing really about anything.

 

[Jackrox256]

Alright I admit in those comments, I was being real retarted, and I apologize for not answering your questions well. Anyways, here's something to think about, evolutionists

edit: here's another one.

edit:something to explain a little about my personality, gives a little insight on why I was being retarted, yet it was wrong, I admit and I am sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISTP_(personality_type)

The first video is laughable. He is basing the incredibly complex and confusing evolutionary theory and warping it to a terrible Math equation.
Now if I am to work under his stupid math equation 10 to the power of 70 is not impossible as he states. It is 10 to the power of 70.

The second video actually points out a big flaw within the theory. There are a lot of missing links within the theory of evolution and is one of the main reasons it is still considered a theory in the first place. Evolution is not a fact, nor am I claiming it to be so, it is just one probable theory in which many scientists are still working to prove, and/or disprove.
He claims that Evolution requires more faith to believe in than Religion. I disagree. Religion practices on the sole principle of faith and requires only that. Evolution requires you to look at its theories and facts and to decide if you wish to believe in it. I personally believe it to be a possibility much more realistic than religion, but if it were to be dis-proven I would look elsewhere.

And in regards to your personality type I don't particularly care too much. but from the little bits of information I have seen you do not seem to match the criteria in which that personality type dictates.

Here's the answer to that question/statement about "God is evil"/"Why did God create evil?".

http://www.ucg.org/ebooklet/why-am-i-suffering/why-suffering-where-does-it-come/

So let me get this straight: God is all knowing, and gave Adam and Eve the choice of good or evil and because he is all knowing knew that they would choose evil? Seriously, you are looping with this question and giving me the same answers.

That link itself ironically solidifies my view on this. It tells us by all these random acts of chance evil happens. Yet God is everywhere at once while possessing the power of knowing everything there he could tell what and when anything would happen. Therefore God himself can logically be held responsible to not preventing all death, suffering and torment because he has the knowledge to stop it occurring.

God is not all good because someone who is good would work to prevent these things, not leave billions upon billions to die.

Here's about "Hell" and why people aren't tormented for eternity if they disobey God.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/heaven-a...h/will-loving-god-punish-people-forever-hell/

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today-daily/doctrinal-beliefs/do-you-have-immortal-soul

edit: more on the subject. http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-less...did-god-create-mankind/reward-and-punishment/

First link is just telling us that Christianity is brought up around false beliefs in hell. But even if hell did not exist why is it that God wishes for all to join him in heaven but decide that people who do not believe in him do not have the right to do so. Is that not a form of punishment in itself?
Ironically it seems the first link also contradicts your fact that God is not evil by rekindling one of my old statements. God promises that any who die believing in him will rise again. This is like saying that I am allowed to chop off your hand without permission and give you a robot one. You will be stronger, faster and better but you will suffer a lot for it to happen without permission. I am sure many would call me mad, cruel and evil if I were to do such a thing; even Christians.

Your second link supports my statement that God favors those who believe in him but apparently seeks all to join him. So God wants everyone to join him only after he receives a lifelong worship from this person. If this does not contradict God's words is still seems like he is rather dickish. To simplify his wish: "I love you but only if you love me how I want to be loved can you join me in eternal bliss." Congratulations, I just summed up the word of God in regards to having an immortal soul.

Your third link just seems to sum up the other two.

Here's something to think about. If the world did not have punishment, then nothing would be stupid. Therefore, character is non-existent. Without evil, there is no free will of choice. If evil didn't exist, we would just be a bunch of robots, and if punishment didn't exist, then we would be really stupid, because being wrong and knowing you are wrong is a punishment mentally, so we would be very simple minded beings knowing nothing really about anything.

Indeed. Without choice there would be no evil yet God gave us choice knowing that to be the case. He created evil because he gave us choice knowing that we would choose evil due to the fact that he is all knowing.

In all, God created evil, is evil and gives punishment to those who don't love him the way he wants. If God were to be real the righteous choice would to deny his offer of eternal life, rather than join him and his false sense of righteousness.

 

[Weikauno]

The first video is laughable. He is basing the incredibly complex and confusing evolutionary theory and warping it to a terrible Math equation.
Now if I am to work under his stupid math equation 10 to the power of 70 is not impossible as he states. It is 10 to the power of 70.

The second video actually points out a big flaw within the theory. There are a lot of missing links within the theory of evolution and is one of the main reasons it is still considered a theory in the first place. Evolution is not a fact, nor am I claiming it to be so, it is just one probable theory in which many scientists are still working to prove, and/or disprove.
He claims that Evolution requires more faith to believe in than Religion. I disagree. Religion practices on the sole principle of faith and requires only that. Evolution requires you to look at its theories and facts and to decide if you wish to believe in it. I personally believe it to be a possibility much more realistic than religion, but if it were to be dis-proven I would look elsewhere.

And in regards to your personality type I don't particularly care too much. but from the little bits of information I have seen you do not seem to match the criteria in which that personality type dictates.




So let me get this straight: God is all knowing, and gave Adam and Eve the choice of good or evil and because he is all knowing knew that they would choose evil? Seriously, you are looping with this question and giving me the same answers.

That link itself ironically solidifies my view on this. It tells us by all these random acts of chance evil happens. Yet God is everywhere at once while possessing the power of knowing everything there he could tell what and when anything would happen. Therefore God himself can logically be held responsible to not preventing all death, suffering and torment because he has the knowledge to stop it occurring.

God is not all good because someone who is good would work to prevent these things, not leave billions upon billions to die.



First link is just telling us that Christianity is brought up around false beliefs in hell. But even if hell did not exist why is it that God wishes for all to join him in heaven but decide that people who do not believe in him do not have the right to do so. Is that not a form of punishment in itself?
Ironically it seems the first link also contradicts your fact that God is not evil by rekindling one of my old statements. God promises that any who die believing in him will rise again. This is like saying that I am allowed to chop off your hand without permission and give you a robot one. You will be stronger, faster and better but you will suffer a lot for it to happen without permission. I am sure many would call me mad, cruel and evil if I were to do such a thing; even Christians.

Your second link supports my statement that God favors those who believe in him but apparently seeks all to join him. So God wants everyone to join him only after he receives a lifelong worship from this person. If this does not contradict God's words is still seems like he is rather dickish. To simplify his wish: "I love you but only if you love me how I want to be loved can you join me in eternal bliss." Congratulations, I just summed up the word of God in regards to having an immortal soul.

Your third link just seems to sum up the other two.



Indeed. Without choice there would be no evil yet God gave us choice knowing that to be the case. He created evil because he gave us choice knowing that we would choose evil due to the fact that he is all knowing.

In all, God created evil, is evil and gives punishment to those who don't love him the way he wants. If God were to be real the righteous choice would to deny his offer of eternal life, rather than join him and his false sense of righteousness.

Ok, so you are telling me you would rather be a mindless entity that roamed the Earth for no apparent reason, with no freedom of choice, or freedom at all, to be more precise. Ok. That's you're preference, but I prefer having freedom. If you think God is evil, that's your opinion, and I will respect that. But it's not changing mine.

 

[Weikauno]

I am done here. Weikauno, signing off.

 

[Fjordsen]

Ok, so you are telling me you would rather be a mindless entity that roamed the Earth for no apparent reason, with no freedom of choice, or freedom at all, to be more precise. Ok. That's you're preference, but I prefer having freedom. If you think God is evil, that's your opinion, and I will respect that. But it's not changing mine.

How is choosing not to believe in any particular religion considered not having freedom of choice, not having freedom whatsoever and being a mindless creature?

>You have more freedom following a religion than not doing so
I hope this is a joke, for your own good.