Heroes... we need to talk.

[gabizou]

@gabizou - in regards to 1.8 - none of these changes would come in beforehand (1.8 is scheduled sometime this/next week?) - on top of that, these changes would require some work/retooling to make sure they are up-to-snuff. The reason why we are throwing out ideas is to see what we can do for 1.8 to evolve Heroes into a better system.

EDIT: I expanded it a bit, might want to re-read.

I understand that but most people don't know what changes come in 1.8 other than endermen and maybe biome changes, few people pay any attention about the food or new lighting etc.

 

[Sleaker]

I understand that but most people don't know what changes come in 1.8 other than endermen and maybe biome changes, few people pay any attention about the food or new lighting etc.

Yah that's probably true. I have very mixed feelings about the healing adjustments, I would really like to see some potions, so we can let alchemists craft them but we'll see if notch considers this.

 

[wolfgang784]

@Sleaker I'm not sure exactly how far you guys can do with recipes and item changes and such, but is it possible for the server to make an item heal hearts instead of food?

I read that and thought that it would work pretty perfect if you could make mushroom soup heal hearts instead of food and make sure shrooms can't craft it anymore. The recipe would need to be slightly difficult and of course alchemists only.

Is that possible for potions? I suspect the effects of soup might be too client sided for this, but I figured I'd ask.
_____________________________________

Back on topic, I have not read anything but the OP quite yet but I will when I get home from school so I can properly comment, but so far it seems like a good idea.

I don't see why having a crafting side and a combat side is a bad thing. Almost every game does it that way because every other game out there realized neither type works the best without being able to have a bit of both.

With this you could still happily build your buildings and craft your chainmail crafters, but when someone sneaks up and attacks you, you can don that chainmail you just made and fuck them up with some combat skills.

EDIT quick :: Having said I don't see how it's a bad thing, I still need to read everyone's opinions when I get home so don't rage too hard please =P

 

[Kainzo]

We arent interested in adjusting food to heal hearts instead of hunger.

Healers will heal hearts.

 

[jwplayer0]

We arent interested in adjusting food to heal hearts instead of hunger.

Healers will heal hearts.

Generally i would like that idea, me being the GM.Healer and all, but when everyone ask for heals due to the lack of healers, it gets fairly anoying. I wanted to be a combat healer not a guy who does patchups after the end of battles and such.

With food requiring time to be eated now, i was hoping you could make some sort of modification, to increase the time, and alow for like a MMO style HoT break on combat type Potion. So that in the mist of battle, healers can make or break your team, but out of combat, when your in no danger, you can just eat some steak for 20s or so and be back up to full health. The main problem would be how the potion would be obtained. My suggestion would be...

1: Kainzo has a chestshop or NPC set up with an inf amount of potions, being sold at a rediculously high price, all while people who choose alchemist can craft them and sell them for a price thats lower than the NPC's but make profit.

2:Just alchemist would craft them

3: The would be a drop from mobs

Im going to put more info and such but am about to change class, i'll post more in about 1hour

Well, if we are going to be able to pick a secondary specilization I'm not sure I want warrior one I'd like it to be another crafting one like mason, and Alchemist, or smithy... so I could actually do stuff I want to on the server. which does not include pvp.

However,
I completely understand what the intent is to balance the play with warrior/crafter, and there are probally a lot of loopholes for too powerful characters with double mage/fighter or fighter/healer to allow any 2 specs. so I guess beingable to pick any two wouldnt work.

but I wish it would , as I lust for mason and alchemist and smithy abilitys.

Re read it, and now i understand that you understand

I still dont think you understand it, that or i dont undertstand what your saying.

My first question is have you played games like WoW or Rift, were going go a main pvp type class, and they you have a crafting class as a secondary thing to do.

What we are discussing is making crafting a secondary thing to do, so that everyone will be part crafter and part pve/pvp. Their will be NO DUEL SPECS. So no double crafter and no ninja warriors or double mages and such

 

[Kainzo]

Potions are possible.
We wont be adjusting food for instant healing properties - we're staying away from food edits.

However, we will continue to have bed healing do what it does best.

If you dont want to heal, dont be a healer

Anyways, stay on topic for what this poll pertains to or ill delete your post with great fury.

 

[Airbus101]

Well, if we are going to be able to pick a secondary specilization I'm not sure I want warrior one I'd like it to be another crafting one like mason, and Alchemist, or smithy... so I could actually do stuff I want to on the server. which does not include pvp.

However,
I completely understand what the intent is to balance the play with warrior/crafter, and there are probally a lot of loopholes for too powerful characters with double mage/fighter or fighter/healer to allow any 2 specs. so I guess beingable to pick any two wouldnt work.

but I wish it would , as I lust for mason and alchemist and smithy abilitys.

 

[Kainzo]

Well, if we are going to be able to pick a secondary specilization I'm not sure I want warrior one I'd like it to be another crafting one like mason, and Alchemist, or smithy... so I could actually do stuff I want to on the server. which does not include pvp.

However,
I completely understand what the intent is to balance the play with warrior/crafter, and there are probally a lot of loopholes for too powerful characters with double mage/fighter or fighter/healer to allow any 2 specs. so I guess beingable to pick any two wouldnt work.

but I wish it would , as I lust for mason and alchemist and smithy abilitys.

It would be awesome I agree but completely unbalance and impossible to balance.

We'll only be doing Combat vs NonCombat conjunctions (if we do opt for this)

 

[Dielan9999]

I still support this.

I've watched Ironee play HC, as a crafter there is nothing you can do about PVE. At least in SSP you stand a chance, a good chance if you are prepared with armor and weapons.

SOME people (you know who you are **cough**Diffuse**cough**) change their specs every other week to fit the needs of what they are doing. How they come up with the money for that is beyond me.

Like kingtom mentioned, it's not like combat classes can't build. However we want cool shit too. Take @RedEchoRanger for example. I'd never expect him to go crafter, but he seems to always need one

 

[TechNinja]

It would be awesome I agree but completely unbalance and impossible to balance.

We'll only be doing Combat vs NonCombat conjunctions (if we do opt for this)

I believe the only way a dual class system (Combat + Combat) would work on heroes is if, like many have suggested, the second/sub class has a smaller portion of the abilities it would have as a main class.
This would allow you to select what combinations are possible, avoiding "OP" setups and loopholes, though I would imagine take much more work and time to accomplish.

I think Combat + non-combat would be most plausible, convenient and easily balanced, allowing full sub-classes of one of the four Craftsman specs.
This setup can implement a dual Crafter choice,who can opt for a purely industrious path and still have the "Craftsman's edge" so to speak.

 

[RedEchoRanger]

lol, what can i say i like gadgets in everything i build. I need an engineer and a mason as well to pimp out the subway station i'm working on haha

 

[toadsworth29]

This setup can implement a dual Crafter choice,who can opt for a purely industrious path and still have the "Craftsman's edge" so to speak.

I like this idea.

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

The way I always imagined this system is similar to how vocations work in LOTRO. While there are no non-combat classes, every player can choose to pick up a vocation. That vocation, for instance the one I usually chose, could be Yeoman. Among others, Yeoman could create light armor, cut wood, and I believe farm, although I'm not 100% on that. In total, there were around 10 skills, light/heavy armor crafting, woodcraft, farming, prospecting, smithing, and several others, and different vocations occasionally would share skills, although they may not have the prerequisite skill or they may be the base skill to the end product.

In this system there was also leveling, but it was not for the entire vocation, rather it was purely for the skill you gained exp in. For instance, if you mined an ore, you would only gain exp towards the prospecting skill, not towards your entire vocation. This encouraged more rounded game-play, making players use all 3 of their skills as opposed to using one skill they found easy to use and benefiting in every other skill.

In this way, the warrior/crafter specialization system could be modified to fit a system like this; where you can level up your woodcutting and tool making, but not while you leveled your mining. This way, you make sure players have to do a bit of everything in order to become a true 'master.' In short, it's like a system of sub-skills that you must master before you can master the main skill, which I think would be very neat.

I also really like the system proposed at the start of this thread.

 

[Kainzo]

We arent interested in having dual combat or dual non-combat. Nor is Heroes anything about a 'skill leveling' plugin. We're a class rpg plugin.

 

[RedEchoRanger]

I'm really only a paladin for the purposes of kickin a little ass when i need to, i would definately be nice to be able to place pistons and repeaters every now and then

 

[Dustyman]

On second thought(and viewing Kingtom's post) I really don't like this idea, the fact of being a PvP class or casual class really balances the server, that way townships will die if they don't have both kinds of classes. Making one person able to be both kinds of classes will destroy that idea; shops will pop up everywhere, the economy will get even worse, even walking past your city gates or out of your house will get you killed. It will just destroy the balance this server has, like KingTom said, if you want to build and fight, sucks for you.

 

[RedKhan]

like KingTom said, if you want to build and fight, sucks for you.

If the votes are anything to go on, it really doesn't.

 

[richfish57]

Finally had the chance to read through all the posts and I'll admit I'm less against the idea then I was at first.

I come from the lonely end of the scale like airbus. I have little interest in the PvP or even PvE side of things. I enjoy that screaming terror of night when I have to run through an army of skeletons any one of which could slaughter me. Many a time I wish I had the skills to take on some enemies, but I like the way crafter has worked.

People have addressed the problems of caster/caster or mixing other classes. Kain I believe has already said no to crafter/crafter (Which is unfortunate in my opnion. I know a couple of people who are ok with the weakness for PvE or PvP and would love having pistons and ICs for example)

What I think hasn't been mentioned so much, although someone came a bit close mentioning GW.
Let people focus crafter/(other fighting class) as well. It's been said the crafter classes as they are will be modified which they will have to be, but I'll use them for an example. Make it so that you lose out on the tip-top fun things of the lower side. I'll just take ninja and smith since they seem to be ones people have used.

A ninja/smith can, if the crafting side is all leveled up get repair, have the uses there and full ninja skills. BUT they dont get the highest of smith. They lose repair all, flameshield, auto repair. The very nice things at the top, but keep the general abilities of the class.
A smith/ninja is the other side. They get the repair all, the auto repair. BUT they dont get the top of ninja tree, no smoke. Maybe no blackjack.

Following this idea, it allows some form of specialisations still. It gives people the crafter benefits, but those who want an extra bit for crafter can trade a smaller combat loss for some extra building abilities. I know it's not going to quite work like this but for example let it be that once -one- class is over 45, the other is capped at 45. Be it left at lvl 1 or someone who has kept them both even.

 

[Kainzo]

On second thought(and viewing Kingtom's post) I really don't like this idea, the fact of being a PvP class or casual class really balances the server, that way townships will die if they don't have both kinds of classes. Making one person able to be both kinds of classes will destroy that idea; shops will pop up everywhere, the economy will get even worse, even walking past your city gates or out of your house will get you killed. It will just destroy the balance this server has, like KingTom said, if you want to build and fight, sucks for you.

Your argument of balance is completely invalid and biased. What you have summarized is .. I want to pick on people who cannot defend themselves because they aren't a 'combat' class.

ChestShops / Other abilities are things that can easily be re-tiered, as I said the BASE crafter would be split between 4 (or maybe even add another) spec to crafters.

The economy is completely player driven. If it sucks, it's because you aren't peddling the right wares or your prices are too high.

 

[Shortyy_oD]

Your argument of balance is completely invalid and biased. What you have summarized is .. I want to pick on people who cannot defend themselves because they aren't a 'combat' class.

ChestShops / Other abilities are things that can easily be re-tiered, as I said the BASE crafter would be split between 4 (or maybe even add another) spec to crafters.

The economy is completely player driven. If it sucks, it's because you aren't peddling the right wares or your prices are too high.

I agree. Picking on crafters is so easy because they cannot defend themselves, therefore it is easy exp and loot. I am not to happy about this because the crafter class will most likely die out and everyone will be Lvl 50 DreadKnights Samurais Ninjas etc. It will be harder for us Main PvPers to level up as a result.