Heroes... we need to talk.

[Kainzo]

I agree. Picking on crafters is so easy because they cannot defend themselves, therefore it is easy exp and loot. I am not to happy about this because the crafter class will most likely die out and everyone will be Lvl 50 DreadKnights Samurais Ninjas etc. It will be harder for us Main PvPers to level up as a result.

You have obviously missed the entire post or any follow posts.
The non-combat and combat classes arent going anywhere, it will just allow you to choose ONE combat and ONE non-combat class.

I'll spell it out for you in another way.

You can remain a level 1 warrior and get level 50 engineer and have no desire to do anything in relation to the warrior. Which I assume several players will opt for since they may not care to adventure, but the choice is there if they will it.

 

[Shortyy_oD]

You have obviously missed the entire post or any follow posts.
The non-combat and combat classes arent going anywhere, it will just allow you to choose ONE combat and ONE non-combat class.

I'll spell it out for you in another way.

You can remain a level 1 warrior and get level 50 engineer and have no desire to do anything in relation to the warrior.

Yes I know. What I think should happen is you should just get SOME skills of the crafter spec if you choose to go as a Combat class and vice versa. If you want the whole package, I think the person would need to spec as it first. That way there are beneifits to going crafter or warrior first.

 

[toadsworth29]

We should add three more non-Crafter non-combat paths so there are four Comabt and four non-Combat paths.

Idk... there should just be other noncombats so not everyone is a Crafter.

 

[RedKhan]

We should add three more non-Crafter non-combat paths so there are four Comabt and four non-Combat paths.

I don't get it.. What would a class that doesn't fight or build do?

I try and avoid sucking up like the plague; but Kainzo's idea is the most straight forward and the most appealing.

Crafter class and combat class for everyone. Still plenty of different combo's. System put in place to stop OP combinations, like the previously mentioned ninja smith (I'd say just have the combat class dictate weapons and armour and the crafter class dictate tools).

I see a lot of comments against the idea that seem to stem from a desire to deny people skills and for no other reason (Despite a lot of basically made up or incorrect statements about economy, uniqueness, hardcore play etc). I think the bottom line is this would open up a lot more of the game to everyone and make things more balanced.

This just makes it a Win-Win situation, there is no consequence to your choice of Crafter or Not. You don't get that feeling of success from winning a situation you can't lose at. While, if you manage to survive that raid as a Crafter, you can go "HELL YAH. Beaten by a CRAFTER bitches." Or if you are a pvp class, and you make the most epic jumping puzzle, you can go "No need of Fancy Gadgets for this KIDDES. OWNT" But, with both getting both, no majour sense of accomplishment of breaking the bounds can be felt... because the bounds have been expanded.

Maybe I'm alone, but I have never thought either of those things.

I have thought "Man, wish I could make gates and bridges" though, as well as "I'm pretty sick of killing mobs, wish I could get exp for crafting or mining".

There would still be consequences to your choices, it still costs money to change. I'm curious, would /hero reset take both the combat class and crafter class back to nil?

 

[Dielan9999]

You have obviously missed the entire post or any follow posts.
The non-combat and combat classes arent going anywhere, it will just allow you to choose ONE combat and ONE non-combat class.

I'll spell it out for you in another way.

You can remain a level 1 warrior and get level 50 engineer and have no desire to do anything in relation to the warrior. Which I assume several players will opt for since they may not care to adventure, but the choice is there if they will it.

I think you should just go for this

It would benefit everyone. While disadvantaging no one. What Shorty said about leveling up is bogus, because PVP is a terrible way to level up in the first place. Also people who favor their crafter side over their combat side will always have good loot, and be weaker than a high level combat favored person.

GENIUS IDEA INCOMING. I think we should... Make a Tier 3 Class. It would require having Mastered a spec in 1 pvp and 1 crafter. I.E. Master DreadKnight and Master Smith ---> Tier 3 class that mixes the two, but not fully getting both. As well as maybe adding cooler-er stuff since, of course, it IS T3.

Not a ripoff of my Hybrid idea. Not at all ;D

It's true, its not; your hybrid idea was a ripoff of his T3 mix idea, you just traveled forward in time, taking the idea, which is what somehow inspired his idea, thus, it's a Paradox. Sorry computers/A.I. everywhere.

Then again, that Idea was to mix specs of the same path. For those ppl who are always switching between two masteries in the same path **cough**DIFFUSE**cough** but w/e

I see a lot of comments against the idea that seem to stem from a desire to deny people skills and for no other reason (Despite a lot of basically made up or incorrect statements about economy, uniqueness, hardcore play etc). I think the bottom line is this would open up a lot more of the game to everyone and make things more balanced.

That's what I was thinking.

How OP can a combat class + smith really be? Just change the smith so they have a warmup on armor repairs or something. It's not that big a deal.

And yeah, the rest of the opposition I see is about denying people skills. Like what Shorty said:

This just makes it a Win-Win situation, there is no consequence to your choice of Crafter or Not. You don't get that feeling of success from winning a situation you can't lose at. While, if you manage to survive that raid as a Crafter, you can go "HELL YAH. Beaten by a CRAFTER bitches." Or if you are a pvp class, and you make the most epic jumping puzzle, you can go "No need of Fancy Gadgets for this KIDDES. OWNT" But, with both getting both, no majour sense of accomplishment of breaking the bounds can be felt... because the bounds have been expanded.

Well tom. Thing is, is that nobody needs crafters to build anyway. Sure gates and bridges and lifts from a mason are cool, and the engineers pistons.

However before we all came to HC, we were used to never having them anyway. So really the best part about Kainzo's idea IMO is crafters being able to PVE at last. I find that to be more important. The combat classes won't benefit that much in comparrison, they just get shears, pistons, falsebook, or repairs. All things we can live without anyway.

Maybe I'm alone, but I have never thought either of those things.

I have thought "Man, wish I could make gates and bridges" though, as well as "I'm pretty sick of killing mobs, wish I could get exp for crafting or mining".

There would still be consequences to your choices, it still costs money to change. I'm curious, would /hero reset take both the combat class and crafter class back to nil?

I don't see why our coders couldn't do something like, /hero reset combat and /hero reset crafter

 

[Kingtom404]

GENIUS IDEA INCOMING. I think we should... Make a Tier 3 Class. It would require having Mastered a spec in 1 pvp and 1 crafter. I.E. Master DreadKnight and Master Smith ---> Tier 3 class that mixes the two, but not fully getting both. As well as maybe adding cooler-er stuff since, of course, it IS T3. This would ONLY be between a Crafter/Pvp class. So no Cleric/Dreadknight T3 etc. Or maybe not even "Tier 3" Technically, but a "Blend Class". Idk.

Not a ripoff of my Hybrid idea. Not at all ;D

What?

I try and avoid sucking up like the plague; but Kainzo's idea is the most straight forward and the most appealing.

Crafter class and combat class for everyone. Still plenty of different combo's. System put in place to stop OP combinations, like the previously mentioned ninja smith (I'd say just have the combat class dictate weapons and armour and the crafter class dictate tools).

I see a lot of comments against the idea that seem to stem from a desire to deny people skills and for no other reason (Despite a lot of basically made up or incorrect statements about economy, uniqueness, hardcore play etc). I think the bottom line is this would open up a lot more of the game to everyone and make things more balanced.

This just makes it a Win-Win situation, there is no consequence to your choice of Crafter or Not. You don't get that feeling of success from winning a situation you can't lose at. While, if you manage to survive that raid as a Crafter, you can go "HELL YAH. Beaten by a CRAFTER bitches." Or if you are a pvp class, and you make the most epic jumping puzzle, you can go "No need of Fancy Gadgets for this KIDDES. OWNT" But, with both getting both, no majour sense of accomplishment of breaking the bounds can be felt... because the bounds have been expanded.

 

[Psychokhaos]

Not a ripoff of my Hybrid idea. Not at all ;D

It's true, its not; your hybrid idea was a ripoff of his T3 mix idea, you just traveled forward in time, taking the idea, which is what somehow inspired his idea, thus, it's a Paradox. Sorry computers/A.I. everywhere.

Then again, that Idea was to mix specs of the same path. For those ppl who are always switching between two masteries in the same path **cough**DIFFUSE**cough** but w/e

You actually just proved my paradox further than it was prior to your post; The United Peoples of Paradoxi shall win. All will bow before us and the Grammar Nazis *cough* @toadsworth29 *cough*. (I know it's supposed to be Paradoxes, but Paradoxi sounds cooler. There can be some exceptions. )

@TheMormon we're gonna find you, hide yo kids hide yo wife.

And "gonna" isn't a real word. Unless you were just tagging me because I need (almost literally ) correct grammar and spelling...
~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~ -=- ~
Anyway, On-Topic; I think that this idea is great, and people can adapt to what Kain decides to have added, and that once you have tested it on the game and seen, nay, experienced the new functions, you can write out well thought out suggestions for change in the system, and it could very well be changed based on the support from the community and if it can fit in to what Kainzo's plan of what Herocraft is and is to be in the future.
(Disclaimer: This section of my post was not directed to any one specific person, or even two, just people that are or were {depending on if the past few posts have changed your mind} against this idea)

Remember, as Kain said, you don't have to use the dual class system if put in, since you could only level your combat and not crafter if you wanted, and vice versa.

 

[Dazureus]

I like Kain's original idea the best at the moment. I think there is something of a case to be made for Crafters being Crafters and nobody else, but here's something: Nobody needs a Crafter. You can gather materials and build houses and run a town without a Crafter in sight. And once you are one, fighting is going to be... pretty tough, even versus mobs, which were powered up to accommodate the fighting classes. Having a non-combat spec would spread around the extras and restricted vanilla features that once were Crafter-specific.

 

[vudani]

The only thing a change like this will do is better promote PVP combat. With two specs crafters actually have the viable option to defend Airbus' shop. The only con of this is that crafters won't be as rare so business for players who currently do not wish to PVP and just craft will inevitably be lessened. However, as a whole a boost in the economy as well as real battles should be seen.

 

[Dielan9999]

The only thing a change like this will do is better promote PVP combat. With two specs crafters actually have the viable option to defend Airbus' shop. The only con of this is that crafters won't be as rare so business for players who currently do not wish to PVP and just craft will inevitably be lessened. However, as a whole a boost in the economy as well as real battles should be seen.

There are only like 3 alchemists i can name off the top of my head that play actively. That's Gin, ironee, and atvrider.

There are also only 4 Beastmasters i can name of, myself, Alator, Oryinn, and SpicyCheez.(i heard Dmil respec'd)

Yet we have so many active players on HC today.

Think of it this way, more people to try out other classes! Like alchemist and BM

it wouldnt be possible to have Diamond armor and ninja weapons.

I know. Ninjas only use chain helm and leather armor. I don't see how being a ninja smith could be OP.

 

[Dustyman]

Your argument of balance is completely invalid and biased. What you have summarized is .. I want to pick on people who cannot defend themselves because they aren't a 'combat' class.

ChestShops / Other abilities are things that can easily be re-tiered, as I said the BASE crafter would be split between 4 (or maybe even add another) spec to crafters.

The economy is completely player driven. If it sucks, it's because you aren't peddling the right wares or your prices are too high.

Well, considering I am a crafter, I do not think I am being rude to crafters, I can easily walk around and not get killed(wanna know my secret? Don't walk down roads) I am not saying this idea is completely terrible, I am saying it will need revising, like I said in my earlier post(not the one being quoted by Kainzo) there should be a primary and secondary that way(like many have quoted) you cannot "rape" being a paladin or ninja smith.

 

[RedKhan]

Well, considering I am a crafter, I do not think I am being rude to crafters, I can easily walk around and not get killed(wanna know my secret? Don't walk down roads) I am not saying this idea is completely terrible, I am saying it will need revising, like I said in my earlier post(not the one being quoted by Kainzo) there should be a primary and secondary that way(like many have quoted) you cannot "rape" being a paladin or ninja smith.

I don't think you're listening. The combination of classes being overpowered (ie ninja smith) has been mentioned several times already. Clearly something that unbalanced wouldn't be allowed (Using both the best armour and weapons).

A delay between changing classes. Seperating armour/weapons and tools per class.
There's no need to make it any more complicated than either of the above solutions.

 

[Kainzo]

it wouldnt be possible to have Diamond armor and ninja weapons.

 

[Demonxman]

I would like to ask this question.

is a healer considered non combat? or is it just the crafter that is labeled non combat?

 

[Malphugus]

Say whaaaa? This makes no sense to me, and not just because it would 'invalidate' my grandmaster-crafter title

We can already have a combat spec and a crafter spec.

Hell,given enough time, we can have every spec!
We just can't have more than one spec 'active' at the same time. Well, that plus the hefty 500c fee to swap between them - that's really the only thing stopping me from PvPing. I never have enough money to be able to swap.

Personally I think this idea is the wrong way to deal with the problem(s).

Problem 1: crafters are weak in PvP.
Solutions:
a) use the solution you already have!- level up a pvp spec and swap into it when you are in a PvP mood/to get revenge.
I think the 500c is the main limiting factor here. It is a LOT of money to throw away on a spec change, especially if you want to swap back again. Perhaps it can be dropped a little, or maybe it reduces over time. e.g. if it has been less than one day since your last swap it's 500c, 1-2 days 300c, 2-3 days 150c, 4+days 80c

b)
Come up with some more defensive/offensive cababilities for crafters. They should never be better combatants than the other four paths but at least give them a chance to evade/escape the PvPers.
The other specs tend to have: a tank class, a mobility class, a damage dealing class and an 'all rounder'.

• Maybe smith is the crafters 'tank' - give them the ability to use a shield and some, limited, combat repairs.
• Masons might be the Mobility spec - give them some sort of speed boost. Here's a crazy idea - maybe a skill that lets them instantly craft and get into a boat. Sure they'd need to be near water to use it but if so they could escape most pvp classes. Another possible skill could creates a wall (3high x 5wide x 1thick) of ice (or maybe bookcases since you can't mine them to get free mats), used well (like in a tunnel) these could give the mason a good chance of escaping. (if possible to do without lagging the server the wall should dissapear after x minutes)
• Alchemists could be the 'offensive class', with damage dealing abilities, and some reductions to health/armor to compensate - I mean what self-respecting alchemist doesn't know how to create some vicious acids or explosive formulae? Combined with their flameshield skill, a self-centred alchemical explosion might be ... fun
• Perhaps engineers become the all-rounders: a small boost to weapon damage and armor capabilities and maybe a skill like 'shock' which slows the target(s) for a short time ... giving the engineer a chance to escape. Or how about a 'burrow' skill that instantly tunnels them down say 10 blocks, and forward 5 blocks (filling in the tunnel behind them). Most PvPers won't have the tools, or desire, to tunnel after them. Especially if the skill takes the engineer in a random direction (and he crouches).

Problem 2: PvP'ers want to build cool stuff too
Solution: stop whining and level up a crafter spec. Also: reduce the cost for swapping specs (see a) above)

I'm not 100% sure, will need to check with Kainzo - but repeatedly using the swap system to levelup multiple specs was never an intended function of the system.

Ahh, I didn't make my meaning clear. Swapping specs would still have the same limitations as it does now: if the spec you are currently in is not lvl 50 then swapping out of it will instantly lose you all of the levels/exp in that spec. I was thinking more of someone that has mastered both a combat spec and a crafting spec (or even 2 crafting specs or 2 combat specs). At the moment it's a bit too expensive to be able to swap to a pvp spec for a bit then back to your crafting spec. That said, we don't want a return to the days when it was free and people were swapping specs mid-fight.
Perhaps a cheaper cost combined with a cooldown before you can swap again...?

 

[Sleaker]

I agree. Picking on crafters is so easy because they cannot defend themselves, therefore it is easy exp and loot. I am not to happy about this because the crafter class will most likely die out and everyone will be Lvl 50 DreadKnights Samurais Ninjas etc. It will be harder for us Main PvPers to level up as a result.

Your position and feelings on the suggested changes are based on wanting easy rewards to reap for picking on people that can't defend themselves. Your statements only show you up as a bully, and someone that prefers to have a statistical advantage over others and claim it as 'fair play'

In all - your response lacks maturity.

Problem 1: crafters are weak in PvP.
Solutions:
a) use the solution you already have!- level up a pvp spec and swap into it when you are in a PvP mood/to get revenge.
I think the 500c is the main limiting factor here. It is a LOT of money to throw away on a spec change, especially if you want to swap back again. Perhaps it can be dropped a little, or maybe it reduces over time. e.g. if it has been less than one day since your last swap it's 500c, 1-2 days 300c, 2-3 days 150c, 4+days 80c

I'm not 100% sure, will need to check with Kainzo - but repeatedly using the swap system to levelup multiple specs was never an intended function of the system.

 

[Shadownub]

I love the idea, it's great. The only thing is, that would make every class sort of PvP-Orientated, which is a bit.. idk?

Also, what would happen to signshops?

 

[KrojinKin]

No offense but why bother, Kainzo has already decided or atleast I believe has. The only way this would of been discontinued is if their was a popular vote to say nay on the subject. No use arguing now. The hierarchy has ruled.

 

[Aerokii]

No offense but why bother, Kainzo has already decided or atleast I believe has. The only way this would of been discontinued is if their was a popular vote to say nay on the subject. No use arguing now. The hierarchy has ruled.

Such things should always be open to further discussion, as it's always possible to find better ideas and better ways of doing it. Hell, I've seen some great ideas here on both sides of the metaphorical aisle. Since coding hasn't begun yet, now's the perfect time to, well, perfect the idea. Let's keep this going down to the wire and beyond if possible!

And maybe to make things more fair to those who have taken the time to master crafter and spec it, and not make it so all their hardwork can now be gained by typing /hero choose ____, we can still make people level basic crafter before being able to choose those four specs. Just a thought.

Disregard and delete this, I meant to just edit another post.

 

[7thKnight]

I can't press the yes button enough for this. Having both a pvp and a crafter spec would open up the game to such a devastating degree of fun. Maybe bring back some of the early age speculation classes for the secondary class? Diplomat, Mayor, etc. Get Tax breaks, cheaper herogates, maybe even slightly larger town regions Or a banker sub-class that gets interest on their gold! No need to force it to only crafter specs and maybe try the Secondary class route and add an amazing in depth style to it. Oh the options!

I meant that all crafters plus additional classes would be secondary classes. Can't really call a banker or diplomat a crafter so I used "secondary"

But the idea of retaining a single main Crafting class with lots of bonus's(Most if not all the secondary classes) for giving up all pvp abilities(and signing a written and verbal contract to never whine about not being able to kill anything) would be pretty neat.