Suggestion Upcoming PvP party limits and concerns

[Trazil]

@Eldrylars all I remember from the tourney is leo w0nder and them chasing me around then I turn and bonespear

 

[Eldrylars]

@Eldrylars all I remember from the tourney is leo w0nder and them chasing me around then I turn and bonespear

Lol, I was trailing behind them going, "Is anyone hurt yet? Does anyone need a heal? No? Ok Just keep me informed!"

 

[TimForReal]

Thread cleaned, stay on topic or don't say anything at all.

 

[Ellron23]

Kind of depressed @Ellron23's post got removed

It's kay. The community has spoken.

 

[Holidaze]

bump

 

[werwew19]

Now that the change is implemented this thread needs to become active again
Hopeful Patch Notes:
-REVERT IT BACK TO 10

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

I agree with returning it to 10. Reducing it is a mistake. 10v10s make PvP fun. 5v5s lack epicness

 

[pigeonsnackwrap]

10v10 is more fun and is more appealing to newer people.

 

[Dwarfers]

10v10 is more fun and is more appealing to newer people.

More appealing meaning getting ganked by 10 other people which is exactly what happened to me when I was new and the limit was 10. The party sizes meant nothing to me when I was new, but that's me. So far, most of the people who I have seen argue for a size limit of 10 are people who mostly travel in groups larger than/close to 10 and are known for out numbering/ganking to win. We need more input from other players who travel in smaller groups such as myself in my opinion.

What about this, raise the party size to 7 or 8 instead of 10?

 

[Dakinara]

Isnt one of the purposes of clans to kind of give you a raid group of people you pvp with, and giving you pvp flag protection from hitting each other? Wouldnt you really mostly only want to pvp with your clan members to get ratings / elo or whatever?

I guess i just dont see the issue. If clans is working properly, the only problem is that smaller groups = smaller gtp / aoe buff / healing support. Which are all pretty op in bigger groups. But you can still run with multiple parties without any real issue so long as everyone is in your clan, right?

 

[malikdanab]

Isnt one of the purposes of clans to kind of give you a raid group of people you pvp with, and giving you pvp flag protection from hitting each other? Wouldnt you really mostly only want to pvp with your clan members to get ratings / elo or whatever?

I guess i just dont see the issue. If clans is working properly, the only problem is that smaller groups = smaller gtp / aoe buff / healing support. Which are all pretty op in bigger groups. But you can still run with multiple parties without any real issue so long as everyone is in your clan, right?

That was removed.

 

[Dakinara]

That was removed.

what was removed - clan pvp protection? why . if towns have pvp protection, clans should definitely have pvp protection.

 

[pigeonsnackwrap]

what was removed - clan pvp protection? why . if towns have pvp protection, clans should definitely have pvp protection.

i'm pretty sure if clan protection was enabled, there would just be clan raids which will be larger than 10 and defeat the purpose of the 5 person/party limitation.

 

[Dakinara]

i'm pretty sure if clan protection was enabled, there would just be clan raids which will be larger than 10 and defeat the purpose of the 5 person/party limitation.

I guess I dont know what the devs intent / purpose was for the 5 person / party limit. If the purpose was to reduce the power of aoe support (heal, buff, and gtp) abilities in large groups, then it was a good change in that it obviously would reduce the effectiveness of those. If the intent was to give smaller, tight-knit / organized groups a more even playing ground against larger but unorganized / "zerg" groups, the only way that will work is with full on friendly fire (against party ,town, clan, everything), which unfortunately i dont think herocraft can support well with some of current ability mechanics.

I thought the purpose of clans was for clan raids / conquests. That you would have more of a "team" that you stuck to throughout the season, rather than grouping up with different randoms every couple days.

 

[Dwarfers]

I guess I dont know what the devs intent / purpose was for the 5 person / party limit. If the purpose was to reduce the power of aoe support (heal, buff, and gtp) abilities in large groups, then it was a good change in that it obviously would reduce the effectiveness of those. If the intent was to give smaller, tight-knit / organized groups a more even playing ground against larger groups, the only way that will work is with full on friendly fire (against party ,town, clan, everything), which unfortunately i dont think herocraft can support well with some of current ability mechanics.

I thought the purpose of clans was for clan raids / conquests. That you would have more of a "team" that you stuck to throughout the season, rather than grouping up with different randoms every couple days.

Main reason was to challange players a bit more and to nerf aoe's which are strong with groups of 10 and are still pretty effective in groups of 5 if you watched the 5v5 tournament.

 

[Dakinara]

Main reason was to challange players a bit more and to nerf aoe's which are strong with groups of 10 and are still pretty effective in groups of 5 if you watched the 5v5 tournament.

yeah i did play in last tournament and it was fun, but it did highlight the power of support stacking. I think the 5 man group thing helps some in that regard, so long as towns / clans are pvp off flagged (or toggle-able if nothing else so townies can still duel / fight when they want).

I dunno, i read this thread and basically agree with @Delfofthebla post that party sizes should be smaller to limit aoe support but allow "raid groups" so that you dont harm allies. I thought clans was a good system for designating your raid group basically (allows people to be in different towns for building purposes, but one clan for pvp purposes) but other people seem to have issue with that for one reason or another.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I will say this: While I do stand behind my previous post on groups and raids (groups of groups), I also understand how fucking retarded AoE's get in big teamfights.

Back in Bastion, if you were goin to a big teamfight, do you know how you won that fight?

Beguilers.
Wizards.
Bards.
Clerics.

and less relevantly:
Paladins.

notable mentions:
Any warrior ever.


Why? Because of the clusterfuck of AoE's present in Herocraft. And I'm not just talking about damaging ones either. Heals and buffs were immensely powerful for these fights, if not more so.

AoE effects are more powerful the more people present.
PlagueBomb was doing somewhere around 230ish damage during Bastion.
230 damage is not much on it's own, but what about if there's a 5 man teamfight?
230 * 5 = 1150 damage.
what about 10?
230 * 10 = 2300 damage. Double. Cool!

This of course goes for heals as well...
GroupHeal can take that same 230 heal and turn it into a 2300 heal very easily. Individual buffs are less quantifiable, but the result is the same. The larger the party size, the more beneficial these things are.

I am not a fan of any class being that much more useful when you stack the party size up to the max. However, if I had an opinion towards whether I hate support or dps being more effective, I'd argue that I hate support more. Dropping the party size limit to 5 helps this immensely, despite some of the arguments I've seen people spouting lately.

Things like Clerics, Bards and Paladins being so useful in larger teamfights is directly due to the potency of AoE abilities. Paladins (and all other warriors) play a slightly...different role in all of it, but it all stems from the same issue. The tankier something is, the less it is affected negatively by AoE effects. (Whether they be positive or negative).

While I was active for balance in Bastion, I hated this so much that I did everything I possibly could to reduce it. I did things like increase healing cast times, lowering AoE radius', and in the case of something like BloodBoil, adding an actual maximum number of targets.

On the note of that one, I know people raged in the forums before I actually put it in, and may think that the reason I did so was because of the rage. However it was always planned to add it. I had decided to be selfish and delayed putting it in until I actually saw people cry about it. Naturally, It didn't take long, because it was just as bullshit as they said it was. I regret nothing, by the way.

----
So, with all that in mind, I am not entirely against the current state of the HC party system. It prevents both sides of the issue. It prevents support from stacking heals on too many people, and it prevents the AoE damage spam due to the increased danger it poses to your own team assuming you have "too many people" hanging around.

However I am also aware of how clunky and disgusting it is to actually PvP in Minecraft, and how it feels like there is no real "team" if you can't actually be in a party together. Adding in this extra layer of difficulty that is "being aware of your fucking team" is not something that the Herocraft community would really care to do, or care to have present. If this were any other game, I'd probably tell everyone to suck it, but it's not, so I can sympathize.

The raid system is probably the best way to go about it to quell the communities rage. (Assuming anyone actually cares about quelling the rage that is)

 

[Sirdemonic3]

let the rage become a part of you

 

[Eldrylars]

----
So, with all that in mind, I am not entirely against the current state of the HC party system. It prevents both sides of the issue. It prevents support from stacking heals on too many people, and it prevents the AoE damage spam due to the increased danger it poses to your own team assuming you have "too many people" hanging around.

One important thing to remember is townships cannot hurt each other with their offensive spells. So it really only debuffs support/healers as you will not be AOE damaging your townies even when they are not in your party.

 

[Dakinara]

One important thing to remember is townships cannot hurt each other with their offensive spells. So it really only debuffs support/healers as you will not be AOE damaging your townies even when they are not in your party.

It is true, which is why i kind of prefer the idea of reducing aoe radius even further on both group heals and aoe damage abilities. I really wish we had a pvp server... dedicated to only pvp, with no lag, so things like projectiles, ground targeting, movement abilities and the like all worked great the vast majority of the time. And then maybe we could replace some of the skills that are just "huge aoe around here" to be more precise.

But Kainzo has mentioned removing mobs from the pvp server as the primary source of latency issues, and some people really pooped about it. Generally the same people that complain about lag, but ya know, thats how it goes lol.

Im actually pretty happy with the latency this reset except for random 3-5 second spikes, but have been mostly on pve server - dunno how its going on pvp but will find out soon.