Townships 2.0: What went wrong? What do we want?

[devotedworker]

@Dutchgirl619 @DaBur @malikdanab @MariusAbyssal @Naxet91 @devotedworker and anyone else who has been active from Amoria. We have heard extensively from the more vocal of Sanmak-kol but not much from Amoria. What are your take always from Townships 3.0? I know that when I first joined Herocraft I didn't know what a township plugin was and over the past year I am still learning about our current plugin. The learning curve is steep. This being said yes, Township 3.0 is new and different and will have its own learning curve. For someone who knows all the in's and out's of the current system they may see it as complicated. Knowing little of the current system though I myself find it no more complicated than what we have now.

I've heard complaints about it being restrictive. How so? Nearly all blocks are incorporated into the config files. If one is missing it can easily be added. In fact there are more block options in this than engineers have for bridges. Size restrictions? Nothing says that you can't overflow the building region so long as the minimum requirements are met for the region you have bought. I've done this in my builds. The number of blocks required for a build actually leave a lot of leeway, you can meet the requirements and still have over half of the region to use whatever blocks you want. Want an "L" shape build? Make the region on one side of the "L" the overall super region still protects your build much like the current system. The new region protections will be effective in the regioned part of the build.

I've heard how the PVP crowd doesn't like that they can't kill people inside the towns. I honestly don't get this one. I agree that the damage buff was ridiculous, it was subsequently removed. The poison damage to attackers? Over the top if it is on all the time. Rebalance the cost, damage applied, and add a cool down to it. What I'm reading is "if we can't waltz into a town and kill who we want and take what we want, it's no fun for us" am I reading it wrong? I'm a member of Sanmak- kol and I'm pro PVP when it doesn't devolve into "I killed you, now I'll sit here and kill you again and again till your death chest timer is up and I can take everything you have while you are naked and can't fight back" (this has been my experience with PVP repeatedly on live, never anything else)

I have not heard though what Amoria doesn't like about the plugin. Are costs too high? Region sizes restrictive? Too easy to upgrade? Missing block choices? What do you not like/want to see changed?

I also have not heard from Sanmak-kol what you DO like about the plugin... Honestly have you tried doing anything with it yet other that to reduce the opposing towns power via killing town members? Am I causing a detriment by being responsible for building the town and creating the regions? if so i can pass this off to one of the town leaders.

What we need to do here is an After Action Review (anyone here with a military background should be familiar with this... annoying after a long day in the field but definitely worth the time!) essentially this comes down to this:

- What was supposed to happen?

- What did happen?

- What are some improves?

- What are some sustains?

- What can be done to improve the training (plugin) next time (for live servers)?

I have posted numurous times on the subject... but my Opinion has gone largly hated :_: #MeanPeople, but I guess I'll give it a shot again. Just for you @agedbear

The town plugin doesn't seem to be restrictive on building ( Besides size, and that can be avoided with time and money ) , I think people can live hidding a few blocks they don't like in their builds. I managed to make my favorite house build just fine Maybe Multi can give a few more options but thats easyly configurable!``

The PVPers have been vocal on their hate for for the new PVP in towns... Multi ( Dispite the fact he doesn't have to ) has tried to appeal to them, and I find it has exceedingly becoming an issue as nothing is good for them unless 5 people can bring down a 50,000s town in one hour. Towns are ($%* expensive to build, it should take at least as much as it took to build it to take down an active town.

Amoria loves the plugin. There was a point where 12 members where talking in TS about it, and it seemed to have 95% good reviews. We had a few suggestions, but mostly I say at least I am satisfied with the plugin. Good Job @Multitallented

I do not recall anything they have said not out of hate for the plugin, but I may be wrong! Sowwie if I'm offending anyone XD

 

[Kainzo]

So this is what I've gathered.

1) townships were too protective, make it more fluid
2) heroes got too complex, make it more simple
3) lostsoul is worthless, let players jump right into their class (with maybe advanced specs after)
4) money is hard too obtain, bring back gold shops
5) mobs are dumb, bring out bosses
6) events are awesome, do more of them

Did I miss anything?

 

[devotedworker]

So this is what I've gathered.

1) townships were too protective, make it more fluid
2) heroes got too complex, make it more simple
3) lostsoul is worthless, let players jump right into their class (with maybe advanced specs after)
4) money is hard too obtain, bring back gold shops
5) mobs are dumb, bring out bosses
6) events are awesome, do more of them

Did I miss anything?

Hrm... I think the Township aspect is ok, I think people are just too used to constant kiklling without any fight back. I think this is a lot better than having people hide out in undercitys, so... Go Townships 3.0!

Hero's is a tad complex, but to the new player its massive. But it should be ok for the time being.

Lostsoul may need to be removed, :_: It will incress the retention if people don't have to wait as long to get a class... Or make LostSoul more powerfull

Money is just fine. I don't believe I've heard any complaints about this... EVER

Bosses will be cool, but don't remove mobs, they still have their uses.

We do need more events though, simples ones are ok! Revive the Event team

 

[Trazil]

@Multitallented @Kainzo the poison needs to be gone totally, even a small thing makes a huge impact on people of equal skill and there should be NO safe zones in towns IMO unless you want people to just camp there until they come out.

 

[Irishman81]

It also nullifies skills like sneak, fade, smoke, and camouflage. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Trazil]

It also nullifies skills like sneak, fade, smoke, and camouflage. Just something to keep in mind.

But gives use to telekinesis if the doors are kept the same

 

[JupiterRome]

omfg My Paladin Build = Stun = Turret 1 shot = GG

 

[Multitallented]

It also nullifies skills like sneak, fade, smoke, and camouflage. Just something to keep in mind.

What if the effect only started once you deal damage or take damage from something else?

 

[malikdanab]

This is just my personal opinion, but there needs to be a more consistent way of getting money. ATM (besides trading) all you do is mine in hope that RNG shows favor.

 

[Multitallented]

This is just my personal opinion, but there needs to be a more consistent way of getting money. ATM (besides trading) all you do is mine in hope that RNG shows favor.

Towns do that with trade runs and farming.

 

[Carbash]

Make the poison a resource drain instead of health. Stamina and or mana drain slowly both with seperate costs where stamina is more expensive. Not a major one but enough to make a difference. Have it affect both sides unless they are wearing respiration chanted helms (gas masks)

Or make it suffocation where the helm would prolong your exposure.

 

[devotedworker]

Make the poison a resource drain instead of health. Stamina and or mana drain slowly both with seperate costs where stamina is more expensive. Not a major one but enough to make a difference. Have it affect both sides unless they are wearing respiration chanted helms (gas masks)

Or make it suffocation where the helm would prolong your exposure.

That is a creative way to look at it. Maybe make Mana and stamina not regen, so they have to leave to refill This does solve the issue with people complaining about the stuff killing em XD
@Multitallented hows that sound? Or maybe we can make that another seperate effect :3

 

[Egorh]

You guys are too hooked up on the DOT aspect. No matter what you have it will be a major factor in trying to fight a town. I think that the turret is enough as defences go and a small damage increase around 2-5% would also be reasonable.

 

[Trazil]

@devotedworker get out, you don't PVP and you know nothing on the subject, I don't care if you think something sounds cool or is creative when it just won't work in ANY way possible that is fair to both sides.

@Multitallented i don't care what you think will happen on PVP once this is put in but first, if I can't go to a town and kill them because they sit inside right infront of me I will stay there for a while until I kill them, if I can kill them right away and get my loot I move on. Safezones don't help the defending or the attacking players and they are just a waste of time, I don't care if any of the PVE community agrees with this because it doesn't affect them at all unless PVE is scrapped and back into 1 map

 

[devotedworker]

@devotedworker get out, you don't PVP and you know nothing on the subject, I don't care if you think something sounds cool or is creative when it just won't work in ANY way possible that is fair to both sides.

@Multitallented i don't care what you think will happen on PVP once this is put in but first, if I can't go to a town and kill them because they sit inside right infront of me I will stay there for a while until I kill them, if I can kill them right away and get my loot I move on. Safezones don't help the defending or the attacking players and they are just a waste of time, I don't care if any of the PVE community agrees with this because it doesn't affect them at all unless PVE is scrapped and back into 1 map

Meane :_: ( Also I do pvp thank you very much... )

 

[Phoenix_Frenzy]

@devotedworker get out, you don't PVP and you know nothing on the subject, I don't care if you think something sounds cool or is creative when it just won't work in ANY way possible that is fair to both sides.

@Multitallented i don't care what you think will happen on PVP once this is put in but first, if I can't go to a town and kill them because they sit inside right infront of me I will stay there for a while until I kill them, if I can kill them right away and get my loot I move on. Safezones don't help the defending or the attacking players and they are just a waste of time, I don't care if any of the PVE community agrees with this because it doesn't affect them at all unless PVE is scrapped and back into 1 map

I think what devoted was doing was trying to make suggestions. This thread is mostly complaints and whining from most people. Instead this should be a thread of suggestions. @MalaWolf made a few suggestions and told us what he liked and didn't like. What I would have liked to have seen from everyone is useful info and suggestions. It seems like any time someone has a different opinion than the other it results in complaints and name calling. Reminds me of preschool. Is this really how everyone would like to solve things? Why not just say if you can't play nice together then do not play at all? OR we can work this out.

If you do not have something nice/constructive/helpful then do not say anything at all. Forget the idea of what PVP vs PVE is in Herocraft at this time. If I build a town over 2 weeks, I expect that I can at least be semi safe inside my town to organize chests. No I don't expect to be completely safe and that adds to the fun. I disagree with being able to walk into a town and kill someone. I do not want that at all. What are these "safezones" you speak of? If you hit someone in town they are tagged in combat and you can kill them inside their home or any other structure. We have said this multiple times on separate occasions.

Make a suggestion. Do you guys want a Townships 3.0 Suggestion thread? What regions would you guys like to see? There may be arrowturrets, but what if you could build a region to "jam" the arrowturret for a temp amount of time and do a rush into the town? I have said this before and I will say it again "Strategic PVP" is what we are looking for. I also want a region to counter another. If there is a defense I want an offense to counter it. Make suggestions, but right now we are testing the plugin in the CURRENT state so we can improve and add regions. We do not want to continue adding so much stuff and realize that there is something wrong in our foundation plugin. The plugin is not at all done adding offenses and defenses, but we need to test what we currently have so we CAN add more SOON.

 

[Trazil]

@Phoenix_Frenzy last time I checked if they were in a building they had to hit you first, those are the safe ones I'm talking about. The way towns are protection wise now is fine. You say that you want strategic PVP however you are trying to push it WAY too far over the top where it is almost impossible without a paladin Druid or cleric which shouldn't be the case, none of the classes should be hindered by your plugin. I did give constructive input many times while I was on the server and said I thought the plugin was near perfect when it was just the turrets defending towns ( although they still shouldn't have done 3 hearts ) but then you put it over the top adding more unneeded and highly UNWANTED things like the poison. PVP vs. PVE is something to look at when the defenses only affect the PVP side of the server yet both communities have input on it.


The last time I raided on siege we were able to blink onto the walls drop down, they activated poison. I looted one chest in the middle of the road then we killed 2 people this was all under 5 mins before we had to leave because of the poison being too strong, even with my op absolution and holy aura. The only way we could escape the poison was because they had stairs to the top of their walls still. If there were no stairs we would have died from the poison, if they had a graveyard they could just rush us until we died from being trapped. Do these not seem like problems to you? They make raising absolutely pointless if you want any kind of reward.

So let's say you add something to heal the players from an outpost for the same amount the poison does at the same rate, it would just be a waste of money and turn into a grindfest of whoever can mine more and have better luck rather than off of any sort of skill. I know I am easily not the best pvper but I would rather have my town raided and burnt to the ground than just kill the players with poison. The problems you are trying to fix with your extra defense such as camping will always happen whether I have to wait outside regions and track or bring 9 clerics with me, people will find ways around it. There is no way of getting rid of some of those problems.

If you still insist on keeping the poison because it seems like you will anyway here's what I would like to see:
1. Town walls cut in size from a max of 30 blocks down to 12-15 at any given point to allow every class a better chance at getting into a town with assistance from another and allow them a chance at getting out
2. The poison cannot do more than 10% of your health which may not seem like a lot but in PVP that's tons of hp to miss
3. Put a 1 minute PVP timer on players reap awning INSIDE town graveyards to prevent rushing and it gives them a little time to re gear however get rid of death chests inside towns so they can't just grab their stuff put it away then fight naked. This would prevent camping players right out of the graveyard, however not the whole town. DO NOT Make the graveyard a safezone.
4. Lastly I do like the turrets they probably shouldn't do 3 hearts but, they need to be able to be reached by EVERY class. I don't want to try and raid a town just to be shot at by something I can't destroy ( another reason I hate the poison)

Those are my suggestions, any thoughts?
Sorry for any typing errors, type this on my phone

 

[Multitallented]

@Phoenix_Frenzy last time I checked if they were in a building they had to hit you first, those are the safe ones I'm talking about. The way towns are protection wise now is fine. You say that you want strategic PVP however you are trying to push it WAY too far over the top where it is almost impossible without a paladin Druid or cleric which shouldn't be the case, none of the classes should be hindered by your plugin. I did give constructive input many times while I was on the server and said I thought the plugin was near perfect when it was just the turrets defending towns ( although they still shouldn't have done 3 hearts ) but then you put it over the top adding more unneeded and highly UNWANTED things like the poison. PVP vs. PVE is something to look at when the defenses only affect the PVP side of the server yet both communities have input on it.


The last time I raided on siege we were able to blink onto the walls drop down, they activated poison. I looted one chest in the middle of the road then we killed 2 people this was all under 5 mins before we had to leave because of the poison being too strong, even with my op absolution and holy aura. The only way we could escape the poison was because they had stairs to the top of their walls still. If there were no stairs we would have died from the poison, if they had a graveyard they could just rush us until we died from being trapped. Do these not seem like problems to you? They make raising absolutely pointless if you want any kind of reward.

So let's say you add something to heal the players from an outpost for the same amount the poison does at the same rate, it would just be a waste of money and turn into a grindfest of whoever can mine more and have better luck rather than off of any sort of skill. I know I am easily not the best pvper but I would rather have my town raided and burnt to the ground than just kill the players with poison. The problems you are trying to fix with your extra defense such as camping will always happen whether I have to wait outside regions and track or bring 9 clerics with me, people will find ways around it. There is no way of getting rid of some of those problems.

If you still insist on keeping the poison because it seems like you will anyway here's what I would like to see:
1. Town walls cut in size from a max of 30 blocks down to 12-15 at any given point to allow every class a better chance at getting into a town with assistance from another and allow them a chance at getting out
2. The poison cannot do more than 10% of your health which may not seem like a lot but in PVP that's tons of hp to miss
3. Put a 1 minute PVP timer on players reap awning INSIDE town graveyards to prevent rushing and it gives them a little time to re gear however get rid of death chests inside towns so they can't just grab their stuff put it away then fight naked. This would prevent camping players right out of the graveyard, however not the whole town. DO NOT Make the graveyard a safezone.
4. Lastly I do like the turrets they probably shouldn't do 3 hearts but, they need to be able to be reached by EVERY class. I don't want to try and raid a town just to be shot at by something I can't destroy ( another reason I hate the poison)

Those are my suggestions, any thoughts?
Sorry for any typing errors, type this on my phone

Thanks for the feedback:
1. I also want town walls reduced in size. That's why I'm going to be experimenting with Teleporters and forcefields. The goal is to make extremely high town walls unnecessary. I also don't like the advantages that underground towns have, and will be implementing a drill or something to help raid them.
2. I've made it so the poison doesn't start to hurt you until you are in combat. Poison is really expensive (goes up in price too as the town gets bigger).
3. I don't want to make people pvp immune. The graveyard is a no-pvp zone (except in combat) so that's fine.
4. I've made changes to the firing speed and accuracy of turrets. I'm looking into decreasing the damage on them. Other than that, turrets are doing their job as intended, which is to strongly deter enemies who can't destroy or disable them quickly. Towns can not build many of these and they are easy to avoid.

 

[MariusAbyssal]

I really like the teleporters / forcefields ideas.
I would like to mention that the poison is not only to stop camping, in my opinion the main problem with current towns is that enemies are also immune in the safe zone, so once a player gets into a safe zone you'd have to try to suffocate him or fill it with lava to be able to make him leave.
I also believe that all that telek opening doors will do is make everything have dirt doors...
I was thinking maybe we could have different types of towns, for example a bandit camp that is more tailored to people that have no desire for building, economy, politics.

 

[Trazil]

I really like the teleporters / forcefields ideas.
I would like to mention that the poison is not only to stop camping, in my opinion the main problem with current towns is that enemies are also immune in the safe zone, so once a player gets into a safe zone you'd have to try to suffocate him or fill it with lava to be able to make him leave.
I also believe that all that telek opening doors will do is make everything have dirt doors...
I was thinking maybe we could have different types of towns, for example a bandit camp that is more tailored to people that have no desire for building, economy, politics.

The dirt doors are fine and have been used on every map. There shouldn't be safezones ANYWHERE in a town for people to run to or stay in @Multitallented and you still don't understand this do you? The problem with the poison is taking damage and pvping, it's annoying to any kiting class first and is just too strong of an advantage for defending players. As a necro defending a town sure I would like another 15 or whatever dmg per tick but that shouldn't happen because it's too much. If a town takes time to map out placement of everything they can make turrets very effective and hard to dodge. Teleported sand force fields are useless if I don't want to/ don't have the extra money for them which is why the wall height should just be lowered. Only the richest people will actually try and destroy other towns most people just want some PVP.