Suggestion Samurai Needs a Nerf

[Ordinary]

Samurai needs a change. They have a 5 second melee/bow invuln, two 150 damage bleeds (with 3 and 4 second CDs), a 136 damage melee AOE, a 30% damage buff, a 15 second speed 3 buff, and the ability to remove any movement impairing effects for 7 seconds.
All of this along with 91 diamond sword damage, and 6.5 armor bars creates an incredibly powerful class, that is almost un-killable by any melee, and most caster classes.
My three ideas to make Samurais more balanced are:
1. Increase the cooldowns on their bleeds so that they can't be used back to back.
2. Decrease their base sword damage.
3. Lower their health or armor.
Suggestions? Ideas?

 

[northeaster345]

Samurai needs a change. They have a 5 second melee/bow invuln, two 150 damage bleeds (with 3 and 4 second CDs), a 136 damage melee AOE, a 30% damage buff, a 15 second speed 3 buff, and the ability to remove any movement impairing effects for 7 seconds.
All of this along with 91 diamond sword damage, and 6.5 armor bars creates an incredibly powerful class, that is almost un-killable by any melee, and most caster classes.
My three ideas to make Samurais more balanced are:
1. Increase the cooldowns on their bleeds so that they can't be used back to back.
2. Decrease their base sword damage.
3. Lower their health or armor.
Suggestions? Ideas?

Also how much damage does mortal wound do? I think c12 says 197?

 

[Digger 360]

Samurais are basically a mobile ninja with armor and a DK's DoTs.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Also how much damage does mortal wound do? I think c12 says 197?

Checked this in-game just now. When I'm not wearing armor it does a whopping 227HP over 15 seconds. While wearing leather armor it does 179HP over 15 seconds. I know the Wiki is seldom correct, but it advertises it as 150HP over 15 seconds... how in the hell is 227 ok?

I only checked MortalWound, but there may be other skills that are dealing more damage than advertised. 227HP is hilariously overpowered. Hell, Bloodboil does 225HP over 15 seconds, and has a 20 second cooldown as opposed to a FOUR second cooldown. Lest we forget that the bloodmage TAKES 125HP damage to cast it. Lest we forget that MortalWound also decreases healing by 50%. The hardest pill to swallow is that MortalWound probable isn't even a Samurai's best skill. Most classes would kill to have THAT kind of damage with a 50% healing reduction at such a low CD and Stamina cost.

 

[c12095]

Checked this in-game just now. When I'm not wearing armor it does a whopping 227HP over 15 seconds. While wearing leather armor it does 179HP over 15 seconds. I know the Wiki is seldom correct, but it advertises it as 150HP over 15 seconds... how in the hell is 227 ok?

I only checked MortalWound, but there may be other skills that are dealing more damage than advertised. 227HP is hilariously overpowered. Hell, Bloodboil does 225HP over 15 seconds, and has a 20 second cooldown as opposed to a FOUR second cooldown. Lest we forget that the bloodmage TAKES 125HP damage to cast it. Lest we forget that MortalWound also decreases healing by 50%. The hardest pill to swallow is that MortalWound probable isn't even a Samurai's best skill. Most classes would kill to have THAT kind of damage with a 50% healing reduction at such a low CD and Stamina cost.

http://www.herocraftonline.com/main/threads/mortalwound-bug.30066/#post-275136

I've still been waiting on a fix. Feel free to bump.

 

[LightningCape]

While it's DoTs are a big issue I think that its initial damage is also too high. It does more damage with diamond or gold weapons than any other Warrior spec. The damage with a diamond sword is in the 90s, which is in the realm of Ninja. I don't think there should be a class that has the health and armor of a warrior and the damage output of a rogue.

Leaving the health as it is and reducing damage would make it a more balanced class. It's a particle fix and the only people I see apposing it are ppl who play Samurai or have friends who play as samurai.

 

[victim130]

Samurai needs a change. They have a 5 second melee/bow invuln, two 150 damage bleeds (with 3 and 4 second CDs), a 136 damage melee AOE, a 30% damage buff, a 15 second speed 3 buff, and the ability to remove any movement impairing effects for 7 seconds.
All of this along with 91 diamond sword damage, and 6.5 armor bars creates an incredibly powerful class, that is almost un-killable by any melee, and most caster classes.
My three ideas to make Samurais more balanced are:
1. Increase the cooldowns on their bleeds so that they can't be used back to back.
2. Decrease their base sword damage.
3. Lower their health or armor.
Suggestions? Ideas?

You forgot our 30% buff having a 20% damage intake increase as well. Also, Impermanence only gets rid of any ACTIVE slowing effects (This does not include stuns or cc that is non-heroes specific; so like piggify for instance). Cleave is worthless it takes way too much stamina for the low damage it does. Bladegrasp only blocks melee swings, not arrows or skills.

So on to why you think Samurai is overpowered: The fact that I can take on almost any class and win. First off I want to say something most of you lack is the ability to adapt, if you can't kill me by rushing me, take another approach. However, you still charge in head strong against the samurai and lose. What warrior is beaten by a rogue who rushes him? DK is too tough along with Paladin to even worry about your damage and Dragoons will kite you until they have the advantage. So why should Samurai be any different? Well for one, we are the weakest in defense of the warrior specs so we were given bladegrasp (This is also our unique skill which makes a samurai what it is.) So we fell off after the Early Bastion nerf and Kain replied with Imper.

When you open with a slow, you know my finger is reaching for imper (YOU KNOW THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING) so why waste the time using it?

I laugh while fighting most of you, seeing obvious ways to win against myself. For instance a ninja (Our supposed weaker forms) ran at me once full tilt dash into wild swings. A simple blade grasp and then I can win. If he was smart he would bait my bg with his smoke then open from behind and backflip when I turn on him.

So my advice, stop trying to get your way and learn your classes. Not to mention, clerics being able to solo entire groups? And yet we are here complaining about Samurai :/

EDIT: Just wanted to state this: other warrior specs and some healers dominate Samurais as well as casters having the potential to do so.

(I apologize if any of this is all over the place, I'm rather tired) Also I want to state that I am not fully doubting any claims on the class being above others, I'm just stating the problem I see with others fighting against Samurai. Aside from correcting the skill effects you had listed.

 

[Dsawemd]

1. Samurai needs a change.

2. My three ideas to make Samurais more balanced are:
1. Increase the cooldowns on their bleeds so that they can't be used back to back.
2. Decrease their base sword damage.
3. Lower their health or armor.
Suggestions? Ideas?

1. Samurai has been performing very well for some time now, lets take a look at it.

2. Single target DoTs are not overly insane with Samurai, imo. Armor could be lower lore-wise, but as far as HC warrior spec goes, health and armor is ok. I do think that their sword damage combined with One, which sometimes allows them to get several extra hits, is a bit high.

What if Samurai lost a few points of damage to their sword and gained them in their bows? Samurai used Bows irl. This could change up the way that samurais SEEM to dominate, which is currently: Charge in with One, rely on warrior armor and health to survive while smashing everyone who can't invuln or who has better armor than Sammy(

Just wanted to state this: other warrior specs and some healers dominate Samurais

). This would make them more cautious in melee situations. Real samurai darted in and out of combat gracefully, they did not remain engaged for such a high percentage of the time that samurai's do now.

Also: I tend to remove Victim's performance (not ideas!) from any considerations for Sammy, since he claims to be an outlier (and I believe it!).

 

[lioIIoil]

The reason why mortal wound and disgrace have low cooldowns is beacuase they really drain your stamina. If you windwalk then use mortalwound and then use disgrace then you have used almost all of your stamina. This is how I think warrior classes should be, low cooldowns but high stamina costs.

Anyone who used bash or strike is not fighting well beacuase that is just a waste of stamina. So this means that samurai's only good skills are: Disgrace, Mortalwound, Windwalk, impermanence, Bladegrasp(which is really good but has a really high cd) and fearless.

Also how much damage does mortal wound do? I think c12 says 197?

It is the exact same as Disgrace. Except for it reduces healing. it does 30 damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds.

EDIT: I always thought it was 150 for mortal wound. C12 must be correct if he tested it in game.

 

[Fjordsen]

The reason why mortal wound and disgrace have low cooldowns is beacuase they really drain your stamina. If you windwalk then use mortalwound and then use disgrace then you have used almost all of your stamina. This is how I think warrior classes should be, low cooldowns but high stamina costs.

Anyone who used bash or strike is not fighting well beacuase that is just a waste of stamina. So this means that samurai's only good skills are: Disgrace, Mortalwound, Windwalk, impermanence, Bladegrasp(which is really good but has a really high cd) and fearless.


It is the exact same as Disgrace. Except for it reduces healing. it does 30 damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds.

EDIT: I always thought it was 150 for mortal wound. C12 must be correct if he tested it in game.

The warrior skills are pretty crappy except Disarm, Impermanence is useless with a 120 sec CD and 10 stam cost (Ruins your ability to use any combo whatsoever), MortalWound is good against armored foes and healers because of the armor penetration and healing reduction. Disgrace is a good allrounder, deals less damage to armored foes ofc, but is good to keep someone tagged and add up damage, Bladegrasp is useful but can be easily shut down but simply running away, using a stun/slow or use abilities like Jump, Superjump or blink to keep the distance the next 5 sec. One (Windwalk) is probably our most useful skill because it makes up for our few skills in general and lets the samurai have some kind of mobility. Fearless is a glass cannon, it makes you deal more damage, yes, but with the 20% weakness it's in most cases not worth it unless you active it with a Might/Warsong.

 

[northeaster345]

You forgot our 30% buff having a 20% damage intake increase as well. Also, Impermanence only gets rid of any ACTIVE slowing effects (This does not include stuns or cc that is non-heroes specific; so like piggify for instance). Cleave is worthless it takes way too much stamina for the low damage it does. Bladegrasp only blocks melee swings, not arrows or skills.

So on to why you think Samurai is overpowered: The fact that I can take on almost any class and win. First off I want to say something most of you lack is the ability to adapt, if you can't kill me by rushing me, take another approach. However, you still charge in head strong against the samurai and lose. What warrior is beaten by a rogue who rushes him? DK is too tough along with Paladin to even worry about your damage and Dragoons will kite you until they have the advantage. So why should Samurai be any different? Well for one, we are the weakest in defense of the warrior specs so we were given bladegrasp (This is also our unique skill which makes a samurai what it is.) So we fell off after the Early Bastion nerf and Kain replied with Imper.

When you open with a slow, you know my finger is reaching for imper (YOU KNOW THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING) so why waste the time using it?

I laugh while fighting most of you, seeing obvious ways to win against myself. For instance a ninja (Our supposed weaker forms) ran at me once full tilt dash into wild swings. A simple blade grasp and then I can win. If he was smart he would bait my bg with his smoke then open from behind and backflip when I turn on him.

So my advice, stop trying to get your way and learn your classes. Not to mention, clerics being able to solo entire groups? And yet we are here complaining about Samurai :/

EDIT: Just wanted to state this: other warrior specs and some healers dominate Samurais as well as casters having the potential to do so..

While it is true that samurais tend to lose to pallys and dks, I would argue that samurais weren't losing to that many healers. Samurais have mortal wound, making them one of the few classes that could beat clerics (pre-nerf). You have enough armor to out tank disciples.
As for your example with ninja, why would you bladegrasp immediately after a smoke? He's not hitting you immediately in any case, and he's burned a lot of stamina if he wants to be able to backflip away. That's your own fault if you lose because you use bladegrasp too early.

From my perspective as a wizard, if I can't slow a samurai (ignoring the fact that people run at full speed through a root), I'm dead in about 3-4 seconds. I have to bait out an impermanence, and maybe get a fireball, then run for my life as the sammy charges after me. It's not simply that I don't know how to play my class, it's just that samurai is really way too all around. I'm not saying I can't kill samurais ever, but even in a 1v1 situation, where I'm not being focused, saying don't root a sammy just means I die.

Also Clerics have gotten the nerf bat pretty hard, so I think it's high time to talk about Samurai. The main point is that samurais hit as about hard as ninjas, have significant mobility and also an escape, bladegrasp, and a decent amount of armor and health.

 

[Kwong050]

Ninja's can beat samis (though it is not a guarentee, it is still possible).

victim130 , this is not about you but your points are quite valid.

 

[NuclearCouch]

They deal completely broken damage. I'm pretty sure all there skill damages do more then they should.

 

[macura]

Ninja's can beat samis (though it is not a guarentee, it is still possible).

victim130 , this is not about you but your points are quite valid.

With the recent blackjack nerf it is next to impossible to 1v1 a sammy.

 

[Kwong050]

With the recent blackjack nerf it is next to impossible to 1v1 a sammy.

you are probably right

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Impermanence only gets rid of any ACTIVE slowing effects (This does not include stuns or cc that is non-heroes specific; so like piggify for instance).

You can 100% get out of piggify with impermanence. Learn your class.

 

[victim130]

You can 100% get out of piggify with impermanence. Learn your class.

Doesn't work unless it was changed recently, it pops up saying "You are not under the effects of a movement impairing effect"

 

[alexhoff1]

Samurai needs a change. They have a 5 second melee/bow invuln, two 150 damage bleeds (with 3 and 4 second CDs), a 136 damage melee AOE, a 30% damage buff, a 15 second speed 3 buff, and the ability to remove any movement impairing effects for 7 seconds.
All of this along with 91 diamond sword damage, and 6.5 armor bars creates an incredibly powerful class, that is almost un-killable by any melee, and most caster classes.
My three ideas to make Samurais more balanced are:
1. Increase the cooldowns on their bleeds so that they can't be used back to back.
2. Decrease their base sword damage.
3. Lower their health or armor.
Suggestions? Ideas?

Lowering the armor does not help casters at all, unless they are stupid enough to go in for the melee hits against a samurai. lol.

just fyi

 

[victim130]

I'm not defending Samurais though, we are powerful, but if we get nerfed we will just lose to everything instead. When we lost one back in Zeal, we couldn't catch anyone nor could we kite or regroup. BG was broken, but it got its nerf. Imper is iffy, probably just good for fill atm. When Mortal Wound broke, we had to rely on bash for our damage... etc

Maybe we need a total rework? I just feel if a nerf comes in we will lose more ground as a class than you all think we will. The reason for this is because our class compliments each skill with each other and because our combo is so simple, nerfing it will do damage to the whole combo rather than just one skill.

idk I don't think Kainzo really plans to work on Samurai at this time, but this is my input.

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

Sammy needs to lose Imper all together, and MW needs to do 150 armor piercing damage. That will fix most issues. I've noticed that most people who are bitching about sammy haven't played it. They think its just left click to win. I, myself, victim, pcmonkey, and what777 can attest to how EASY it is to die as a sammy. You just think we stand there and soak up damage. MANY times I have been on the brink of death in team fights.

A lot of you are also complaining about 1v1 match ups. We are supposed to be THE dueling class. What we make up for in 1v1 power we lose in team fights. Sammys can get MELTED in a team fight rather quickly. btw MW is doing 197 on unarmored targets, not the 227 or whatever STDs is claiming.

BTW folks, disgrace doesn't stack on itself. So if a sammy is retarded enough to waste stam on popping it 4 seconds after the first one, then the ticks are reset, not stacking to do 300 damage. but of course you don't put that in your argument because you want it to sound like we are some unstoppable force. You have some large misconception of damage output. We also don't have a retarded nuke skill like evis, HT, Empathy, bolt, megabolt, plaguebomb, blitz, etc.

Let's quickly discuss other classes. Wizards do something like 800 dmg in 5-7 seconds, beguilers do something like 450 dmg every 10 seconds with MASSIVE CC. However the ones dumb enough to stand 3 blocks in front of a sammy bitch that they died. Ordinary, a good sammy "should" beat a ninja 75%+ of the time. Beguilers, wizards, necros, and good pyros destroy sammys, which is how it is supposed to be. Not to mention that we can lose to 50% of the other warrior specs. BooHoo sammys kill Dragoons, ninjas, runeblades, rangers, and bards, along with some of the healer specs.

You all seem to lack to ability to realize that if you put an evenly skilled caster against warrior, caster wins a large majority of the time. You are taking the easy way out. Instead of learning how to play your class to near 100% effectiveness, you just want other classes to get nerfed.

We have the lowest armor of any warrior as well as the lowest health. Warriors have better armor than sammys. Armor and Heath are fine. Lower them and rogues will be able to kill us, and then they will require a nerf.

So lets recap. Lose Imper and the caster rape will stop, and fix mortal wound so everyone stops crying that its not doing "correct" damage.