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Revamp #4

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Let's make things better! :)

I'm seeing a bit of insight from classes we perhaps are not balancing enough or play testing properly.

Namely Mystic / Ranger.
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Yeah I think if we put off Ranger again we might get some heavy flak, the few rangers around are worked up it seems lol. Been thinking a bit on "Rework ideas" What if we lowered base damage and gave them two new skills:
"Provisions" Allows the Ranger to eat gaining mana, stam and health.
"Sure Kill" First shot landed on a target does bonus damage. (Resets after 10-15seconds?) -Not sure if this can be coded-

As it stands, maybe mobility isn't what we need to give them, but instead, survivability. Rangers in real life have poor as shit mobility and rely on landing the killing blow as quick as possible. Though they are hunting deer and not some 40 mile-per-hour samurai. Just a thought though.
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
I know mystic needs a lot of attention and possibly a full rework like bloodmage and runeblade got, it just seems like a really hard class to keep balanced since everyone wants to compare it to the other sole healer class on the server, cleric. It has more skills than any class and some of them are probably not needed for the class.

Also, I have a concern about the new bloodmage. It occurred to me last night that when bloodbond is active and boilblood is used on 10+ targets, it can heal your party members for 420+ hp. Is this intended, because if so, that is an extremely large and unnecessary heal to ALL party members. Perhaps boilblood can be made so only 10% of the magic damage is returned as hp to party members instead of 35%?
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Actually, been wondering if giving most classes a "Survival" skill is something worth doing. We want to prolong combat, why not allow players to restore resources (On long cool downs probably). Just a thought.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Let's make things better! :)

I'm seeing a bit of insight from classes we perhaps are not balancing enough or play testing properly.

Namely Mystic / Ranger.

The ranger stuff I agree on, but Mystic...not so much.

I truly did playtest the living crap out of that class during the last update period. I playtested and playtested, and playtested some more. That class is freakin amazing. It's exciting, it's interesting...it's...fun.

The players that were...expressing their displeasure of Mystic in the update thread are not active PvPers in any way shape or form. I have barely seen them participate in any fighting at all. I would take their comments with a grain of salt.

Unless of course, you are wishing to improve their PvE prowess. As many of you know, I am a PvPer, and I balance around PvP. While I -try- to take PvE into consideration, I do not playtest the PvE, nor do I try to work around it. And until Herocraft actually acquires some PvE content, I don't really intend to focus on it.

However, I agree that I properly went a bit overboard with their mana costs in some areas. I think we can improve this for the next update.

I know mystic needs a lot of attention and possibly a full rework like bloodmage and runeblade got, it just seems like a really hard class to keep balanced since everyone wants to compare it to the other sole healer class on the server, cleric. It has more skills than any class and some of them are probably not needed for the class.

Also, I have a concern about the new bloodmage. It occurred to me last night that when bloodbond is active and boilblood is used on 10+ targets, it can heal your party members for 420+ hp. Is this intended, because if so, that is an extremely large and unnecessary heal to ALL party members. Perhaps boilblood can be made so only 10% of the magic damage is returned as hp to party members instead of 35%?

The BoilBlood + BloodBond stuff was a bit of an oversight on my part. I had a rough idea that it would happen, but I did not anticipate so many people going BloodMage and then stacking the effects on top of each other.

However, I do believe that people are overlooking some very important facts about BoilBlood, as well as the heal it gives from BloodBond.

BoilBlood requires 3 BloodUnion, which takes at least 12 seconds to build up. Building that BloodUnion requires time, mana, and even health via transfuse. Additionally, if the Bloodmage spends his BloodUnion on BoilBlood immediately rather than getting the DoT from CombustBlood's 3 BloodUnion requirement, they are missing out on a bit of single target damage.

I've seen people spam the crap out of this "220 damage" on BoilBlood. What they don't realize is that it takes 12 seconds for this full amount to play out. It's only 120 damage instantly, and then 100 over 12 seconds. The DoT can be purged via Chakra / HealingChorus, and any party members that aren't nearby when that DoT procs do not get healed for the damage.

Not to mention, when stacking multiple Bloodmages, BoilBlood does not heal for the "full 220" per Bloodmage, because the DoT overrides itself. Meaning that if two Bloodmages BoilBlood at the same time, it will deal 240 damage instantly, and 100 over the next 12 seconds. The maximum damage two BoilBloods can accomplish is 340, not 440 as people would like to think.

And finally, it's unrealistic to hit more then 5 targets at any given moment. It of course can happen, and has, but it's not as common as people like to think.

----
With all of that said, I do agree that there is an issue, and there are several ways we can solve it.

1. Set a maximum amount of targets that can be hit by BoilBlood.
2. Increase DoT duration / decrease tickrate of BoilBlood
If we increase that duration to say...18 seconds, but retain the overall damage, this will significantly lower the effectiveness of the BloodBond heal.​
3. Lower BloodBond range. (It is currently 12 blocks)
4. Lower BloodBond healing percentage. (currently 35%)
5. Prevent BloodBond from stacking with other BloodMages.

We can do a large mixture of these or even just one or two. We have a lot of options here. What do you guys think is the best route?

As a sidenote: I plan to change the way that BloodUnion expires. Rather than expiring by 1 every 15 seconds, I think it would be more balanced to have it reset completely every 15 seconds. (Note: this would only occur 15 seconds after the Bloodmage stopped increasing his BloodUnion. I may also increase this to 20 due to the change. Maybe.)
 

Warmachinexp

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
1. Could work, makes a max healing to party through BoilBlood
2. no input
3. I don't think this should be done, with the mana costs of the skills combined with bond drain decreasing the range seems like a bit much, if any maybe to 10 blocks.
4. This is probably the easiest thing to do to help the class. I have no idea for numbers but 25% comes to mind for some reason, not to low, not to high
5. This would make parties with more then one Bloodmage useless. Bloodbond is what makes a Bloodmage so good for teamfights.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Lower the healing %, bring it to 20% - 35% is just outrageous by any standards.

Bloodmage should never be able to outheal a main healer like cleric / mystic.
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
I think the range and the fact that bloodblond stacks with other bloodmages should stay the same, but reduce the healing to about 25% and make boilblood be able to hit a maximum of 5 targets. (Like others have stated)

Also, I heard there is a bug with decaying bloodunions, is this known and if so, being fixed?
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Alright, so let's reduce the heal to 25%. I'll create a config option for BoilBlood to set a maximum number of targets, this will make it easy to change if we need to in the future.

I think the range and the fact that bloodblond stacks with other bloodmages should stay the same, but reduce the healing to about 25% and make boilblood be able to hit a maximum of 5 targets. (Like others have stated)

Also, I heard there is a bug with decaying bloodunions, is this known and if so, being fixed?
Yes, I've already got a fix for it.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Changes on test:

Code:
BloodUnion now expires completely when not increased for 15 seconds.
 
BloodBond healing percentage reduced to 25% (from 35).
 
BoilBlood now has a maximum target limit of 5.
BoilBlood no longer has expire text for the DoT effect.
 
Awaken warmup increased to 7.5 seconds (from 6).
 
ThickenBlood health cost reduced to 30 (from 45).
 
Infusion health cost fixed--it was not properly requiring health before.
Infusion health cost reduced to 35 (from 50).
 
Bloodgift health cost reduced to 75 (from 85).
Bloodgift is no longer required to be name-bound in order to be used.

Something to take into account here, is that with the lower healing % on BloodBond, the Bloodmage has lost some solo capabilities. BloodBond worked, even when not in a party, and for 1v1 situations, it was hardly overpowered by any means. With this reduction, he may have become too weak in these situations.

Just an offhand concern, I haven't actually tested anything yet.

Regarding Infusion / BloodGift / ThickenBlood, after playing with these things more, their excessive health costs are very apparent. It's important to keep the healthcost on Infusion due to it being a self-heal, but on BloodGift, I felt as though such a high cost was not necessary, due to it not working on the Bloodmage himself.

ThickenBlood already costs a large amount of mana, and has a large cooldown to boot. I feel that due to these two things, it does not need a health cost as large as the one it has--especially with the nerf to BloodBond.
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
leftovers5 we need some pro input from a lifetime Ranger.

Suggestions on ways to give the class it's place as the master of archery
Problems playing the class and pitfalls that make it of the the least played classes.

Come on man! You finished your Jr year and you must have wrote a dozen papers, it's time to write a paper on the Ranger! :D
 

leftovers5

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
USA
leftovers5 we need some pro input from a lifetime Ranger.

Suggestions on ways to give the class it's place as the master of archery
Problems playing the class and pitfalls that make it of the the least played classes.

Come on man! You finished your Jr year and you must have wrote a dozen papers, it's time to write a paper on the Ranger! :D
Well I left Ranger a few months ago after playing it for over a year because it had become such a weak class. Heartshot was needed, but in my opinion an escape move completely necessary. Ranger has very little to prevent people from coming closer to it. You may argue for punch bows: I think they should be removed as a class should NOT require an enchantment to play correctly. Otherwise, there is IceArrow but that is simply not enough. I've been preaching for a "Disengage" like ability like this for awhile now to account for this situation, but it hasn't really become acknowledged.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
So...I had a few teamfights today and it has come to my attention that Awaken for Bloodmage is entirely too strong. The warmup is rather small, (which I've already fixed on test), the cooldown is pretty decent (2 minutes) and the costs, while excessive, just aren't hindering enough for the support it provides to the class.

I was easily able to cast it whenever I needed it. Casting it was a bit taxing, but the costs were easily worthwhile and I made no hesitation to use the ability. My desire to use the skill also seemed to line up perfectly with the cooldown. It was just too convenient for me in every sense of the word.

I'm thinking we need to jack up the cooldown and mana costs. I think the health cost is probably in a good place though.

Don't have time to edit test right now, but this is what I was thinking for when I get time tomorrow:
Increase Awaken cooldown to 2 minutes (from 1).
Increase Awaken mana cost to 55 (from 40).
 

yoIyo

Obsidian
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Highland, California
Delfofthebla BloodBond has a range of 12 blocks for party members to gain the effect of the healing if I'm correct.
Wasn't our goal to reduce the range of AoE radius' so you must have proper positioning and not a free roam deal?
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Delfofthebla BloodBond has a range of 12 blocks for party members to gain the effect of the healing if I'm correct.
Wasn't our goal to reduce the range of AoE radius' so you must have proper positioning and not a free roam deal?
I thought it was about time for you to show up. Let's get started then, shall we? :)

The goal was to reduce the effectiveness of instant cast AoE heals. It isn't that big of a deal when you have one of the relevant classes in the party, but when you start stacking multiples of them, I think the AoE heal spam is a bit absurd. It's instant, it's unstoppable, and it essentially makes a large amount of class skills completely worthless (Samurai DoTs, Pyromancer Fire/Withering, Necromancer DoTs, all class slows, and possibly stuns?)
I'll admit that I used the term "instant cast AoE heals" pretty hard back in that original post. However, my emphasis was on the fact that they were instant and that they purged debuffs, as shown above. The healing, if high enough, can be a bit of a concern too, but it wasn't (and isn't) my primary concern when dealing with HealingChorus / Chakra. My apologies for not wording this as well as I could have.

As I stated in the underlined text above, purging debuffs is an action that effectively kills several classes. While it may be fun players (such as yourself) to be able to freely spam Chakra or HealingChorus in the midst of a fight to support your allies, I feel as though those abilities are rather game-breaking and thus must have weaknesses to compensate. A low radius forces you to put more effort into using the ability, and if you don't, it isn't quite as effective.

However, healing alone does not do that at all, and can be countered (ala MortalWound). If the heal has a warmup, it can be countered even further by using interrupt abilities. If we take the Cleric's GroupHeal as an example, it has a pretty decent radius too (more than Chakra). However, it has a warmup, and thus, can be interrupted. A Cleric's GroupHeal cannot remove debuffs either. Chakra / HealingChorus are the only two abilities on HC that allow you to do this in an AoE. Sure, you can silence them, and you can reduce the healing via MortalWound, but you cannot interrupt them, and you cannot prevent them from removing debuffs. These two aspects are very powerful strengths that must be accounted for when balancing the abilities.

From the other side of the fence, you have classes like the Necromancer. As I said, a Necromancer absolutely cannot prevent players from having his debuffs purged. It's impossible. No matter what he does, Chakra / HealingChorus cannot be stopped other than perma silence. But perma silence is impossible. if these abilities had warmups, things would be much much more different. At the time, I did not wish to add warmups to these abilities, and so I opted to reduce the radius instead.

---------------------------------------


With that said, let's talk about BloodBond. So what about it? Well, like GroupHeal, BloodBond is just an AoE heal. It does not purge debuffs. This already would warrant having an acceptable radius to it. Additionally, BloodBond itself is much more easily countered, and despite the fact that it "appears" to be instant, it isn't. I am not entirely convinced that it needs a range reduction. Despite the fact that it seems rather strong, there are a lot of factors that play into the balance of the ability.


  • I'd like to once again point out that all healing can be countered by MortalWound. BloodBond is no exception. Additionally, a Cleric, Beguiler, or Scribe can dispel BloodBond off of the Bloodmage to remove the healing all-together. Dispelling it off means he also has to pay a decent portion of his HP to put it back on, countering the ability further.

  • BloodBond only heals players when the Bloodmage deals damage. The class has only 3 sources of dealing damage. 1 of those sources can only be used once or twice per fight, and requires the Bloodmage to build up his BloodUnion to be used first (BoilBlood). The other two require you to cast warmup abilities that can be interrupted. Due to there being a plethora of interrupt abilities on nearly every class these days, (many of which are AoE) I do not consider this ability to provide "instant healing". He cannot "control" the healing in any way. It is impossible for him to think "hey, I want to heal my party that's 6 blocks that way!" run in, and then instantly do so. BloodBond just isn't that reliable.


  • Another interesting fact to consider is that these skills, being the warmups that they are, have decent ranges to them. This is to prevent the Bloodmage from being absolutely destroyed by melee classes in teamfights, but also to make the warmups more comfortable. The thing is, all of the BloodBond healing is centered around the Bloodmage, not the target that he is damaging. Because of this, a Bloodmage has to position himself closer to his allies if he wishes to heal his whole party. A Bloodmage that sits in the back of the fight and deals damage from afar will heal nobody. The Bloodmage already has to make positioning decisions if he wishes to be an effective group healer.

Unlike the Disciple and Bard, who have several abilities that can be used to escape or distance themselves from targets, the Bloodmage has none. ThickenBlood appears to allow this, but it does not put you below sprinting levels, and thus, has no effect on anyone that isn't already low on stamina. And unlike the Disciple, the Bloodmage cannot heal himself endlessly while he runs away. He only has one reliable self heal, and it is very ineffective. The costs, the cooldown, and the health gain just simply aren't enough to allow him to survive against a close-range enemy. Reducing the radius of BloodBond and forcing the Bloodmage to stick closer to his targets and his allies will make the ability worthless. He just can't survive in the midst of a fight like Disciple and Bard can. I understand that even those classes have survivability issues to them, but they have tools at their disposal to protect themselves. The Bloodmage doesn't.

In short, I was directing my statement towards instant cast, AoE heals that remove debuffs, as well as the classes themselves. If HealingChorus / Chakra did not do these things, I would not have pushed so hard for a radius reduction on them. Conversely, if they were to lose these effects, I would increase their ranges to compensate.

The Bloodmage cannot simply run around in circles and spam a single button to instantly heal his entire party while also removing some of the highest damaging abilities/status effects in the entire game from his allies like a disciple was previously able to do. Now, I'm not saying I'm 100% against reducing the radius. It may actually be too large. But right now, before we've had a chance to see it played more, I do not plan to reduce the radius. If, after reading this post, you still disagree with this, feel free to post your reasoning.
 

yoIyo

Obsidian
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Highland, California
Delfofthebla I never mentioned anything about Instant Heals. I'm talking about the direct AoE radius...

Almost all classes who have an AoE effect have a range to 5-8ish blocks... The point in this is to have proper positioning and not more free roam feel. Just as the changes were made to Despair, Masspigify, Voidsong, and other AoE's.. Once used it goes on cooldown; making it sure that you have better positioning. This has nothing to do with Chakra/ HealingChorus.

Remove the grudge and get your head out of your ass.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Delfofthebla I never mentioned anything about Instant Heals. I'm talking about the direct AoE radius...

Almost all classes who have an AoE effect have a range to 5-8ish blocks... The point in this is to have proper positioning and not more free roam feel. Just as the changes were made to Despair, Masspigify, Voidsong, and other AoE's.. Once used it goes on cooldown; making it sure that you have better positioning. This has nothing to do with Chakra/ HealingChorus.

Remove the grudge and get your head out of your ass.
Err..You brought up something I said in one of the previous update threads. Because of this, I decided to explain why I said the things that I said, and what I was directing those words towards. I then proceeded to explain that BloodBond does require proper positioning, and why it has the radius that it does. I feel as though you didn't even read the post.

Not sure where the "remove the grudge and get your head out of your ass" comment is coming from, I simply replied to your statement with my reasoning for doing things the way I do while commenting on your suggestion.

The point of my entire post was that BloodBond is a unique ability with unique mechanics, and because of that it should not be treated the same as every other ability.
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
To be honest, a 12 block radius isn't that bad, especially since the old radius was 21 blocks with a 50% heal rate. Along with that, as delf said, the healing that comes out of bloodbond is all up to the bloodmage, often times the healing is scattered and almost always unreliable so I don't see why it couldn't have a bit larger range than other healing skills.
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
One thing I have noticed and was wondering if anyone else was getting a dirty feel from it as well.
The global warmup of 1 second just feels dirty. I have been playing a Bard recently so I assume I have been feeling it worse then a lot of classes, but it just does not feel natural.

I know the idea is to slowdown casting to help make fights take longer by not spamming skills for huge burst damage but as most skills have a warmup already it's very gritty feeling having two "warmups."

What about just increasing the warmup of skills that are seen as to burst-e to help balance the casting as opposed to a total block of all skills using a global?
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
One thing I have noticed and was wondering if anyone else was getting a dirty feel from it as well.
The global warmup of 1 second just feels dirty. I have been playing a Bard recently so I assume I have been feeling it worse then a lot of classes, but it just does not feel natural.

I know the idea is to slowdown casting to help make fights take longer by not spamming skills for huge burst damage but as most skills have a warmup already it's very gritty feeling having two "warmups."

What about just increasing the warmup of skills that are seen as to burst-e to help balance the casting as opposed to a total block of all skills using a global?

It feels dirty when a lot of warmups are involved. I've been meaning to ask Kainzo about having global cooldown start when a player begins to cast a warmup, rather than after he finishes. This would make warmups transition to normal abilities in a much smoother manner. Not to mention, this is how all RPGs with global cooldowns function. It is a change I believe needs to be made to HC, and will greatly improve the global cooldown situation while still retaining the meaning behind the decision.

Code:
Overall changes on test
 
Crafters:
The Recall skill has been reworked to accomodate the new Runestone system.
 
Scribe:
(Scribe has been revamped)
--Many abilities have been moved around to make leveling smoother or more sensical--
-Removed Dispel
-Removed SafeFallOther
-Removed Superheat
-Removed Ultravision
-New Skill: MinorRunestone
-New Skill: MajorRunestone
-New skill: ImbueRunestone
-New Skill: GiganticRunestone
-New skill: RechargeRunestone
-New skill: AncientRunestone
 
Bloodmage:
Updated BloodUnion description to state that it now expires completely when not increased for 15 seconds.
 
BoilBlood now has a maximum target limit of 5.
BoilBlood no longer has expire text for the DoT effect.
 
Awaken mana cost increased to 50 (from 40).
Awaken warmup increased to 7.5 seconds (from 6).
 
Infusion health cost fixed. (It was not properly requiring health before.)
Infusion health cost reduced to 35 (from 50).
Infusion cooldown increased to 8 seconds (from 4).
 
ThickenBlood health cost reduced to 30 (from 45).
ThickenBlood range reduced to 10 blocks (from 14).
 
Bloodgift is no longer required to be name-bound in order to be used.
Bloodgift health cost reduced to 75 (from 85).
Bloodgift cooldown increased to 15 seconds (from 10).
 
Mystic:
Soothe mana cost reduced to 9 (from 10).
 
Ire range reduced to 12 (from 15).
Ire mana cost reduced to 18 (from 20).
 
Entangle mana cost reduced to 16 (from 18).
 
EarthWall mana cost reduced to 18 (from 20).
 
Bolt mana cost reduced to 24 (from 26).
 
Rejuvenate cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (from 16).
Rejuvenate mana cost reduced to 18 (from 20).
Rejuvenate healing per tick reduced to 38 (from 48).
Rejuvenate duration increased to 20 seconds (from 16).
(Overall healing throughout spell duration has increased by 3.)
 
Regrowth cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (from 18).
Regrowth mana cost reduced to 23 (from 27).
 
HealingBloom can now be used when you are not in a party.
HealingBloom mana cost increased to 30 (from 25).
 
Samurai:
Fearless removed.
New Skill: UndyingWill
(Active ability. Upon use, applies a buff to the Samurai that prevents them from dropping below 1hp for 4 seconds.)

The Samurai thing isn't something I've run by Kainzo, or something I'm necessarily sure is a good idea. But I'm playing around with it because I feel as though the ability fits their "theme" much better than Fearless does.

In all honesty, if they are to keep the new ability, I feel as though their damage output might need to be lowered a little bit more than it already has been.


On the horizon:
I'd like to lower Dragoon damage output--they're just too damaging for the mobility/tankyness they possess.

I'd like to give paladin a good balance sweep to make them more tank/support focused. They are easily one of the higher damaging classes right now and that doesn't sit well with me.

I want to make dispel / debuff purging less easy. It should be single target / warmup based. Not AoE, and not instant cast. These effects are very powerful, and need to be less reliable.

Ninja still isn't as stealth based as it should be. I've tried playing around with smoke but it just hasn't been sitting well with me.

Runeblade could use more skills, but I can't really come up with anything that wouldn't tip them over the deep end of balance right now.

I'd like to remove the slowness from withering, but add in some sort of speed / mobility skill to compensate.

I've reworked Bloodmage and given Mystic a good go-over with the last two patches. However, Disciple and Cleric still need to be reassessed regarding their healing numbers / cooldowns / ranges / warmup times.
 
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