Suggestion Paladin too strong - as always

[Dsawemd]

Over the past couple of weeks I've 1v1'd numerous Paladins on the test server. (Mainly as a Dragoon) The result was a loss for me every single time.
This can't be right can it?

*reading Thread*
*checks the amount of data used to calculate this thread*
couple of weeks... ok Time frame looks decent.
Just one guy (Halizu)....hmmmm so individual skill is a factor...
Just one class match-up (Goon v Pally)... ok this is useless and anecdotal.

1. Try not to make vague posts, specific posts work best. This thread appears to be addressing several issues, none of them effectively. Look at Coolbeans, he cannot tell that this is a Paladin Thread, and is wasting our time with goon suggestions <3.

Addressing thread comments:
2. The skill Lay Hands has been a long cooldown game changer since PvP was invented, HC will likely retain its classic feel of "instant HP to full".
3. Currently Paladin is putting out respectable threat for a front-line tank. A good rework would see Paladin still able to give that frontline Threat while needing a DPS or Healer class to maximize their potential (an example: Raise the CHA scaling on DivineStun and raise the Cooldown, add CHA scaling to Reckoning Range and lower base Range, Lower STR skill scaling). This would offer paladins the option to competitively build more support than they currently are, and this would lead to us all hating solo paladin a bit less.

 

[Halizu]

*reading Thread*
Just one guy (Halizu)....hmmmm so individual skill is a factor...
Just one class match-up (Goon v Pally)... ok this is useless and anecdotal.

I don't mean to sound cocky, but back when Dragoon was decent, if I was playing it there was only a handful of people that could beat me in a 1v1. So the fact that I'm getting destroyed by mediocre PvP'ers playing Paladin is relevant to the point I'd say.

 

[monkeyfatzer]

Like I said, the main problem on why they are so good is because of absolution. With a bit of wisdom you can easily sustain yourself for an entire fight with 190~ heals or so and can dominate anyone because the cooldown is 15 seconds. Another slight problem is divine stun, the stun is a little bit too long with charisma and makes it so you can just stun them and run and heal or beat on them for 2~ seconds.

 

[Ahrall]

Alright lets have a looksie shall we? Paladin is designed to be a hybrid with a good mix of tankiness, healing, and damage with an emphasis on the tanking and the healing. These two characteristics are both what make it shine in a group setting, but extremely problematic in a 1v1
Tank + Heal is a fine line to walk for 1v1s because if someone manages to deal any type of considerable damage they can just heal it back up meanwhile you (the poor sucker who has no heal skills) have no way to retaliate against this. When you take damage it's permanent.

Lets say you're playing dragoon. You are dealing around 65 damage per hit (second highest in the game). Paladins usually have around 60% damage reduction without enchants. So you are hitting the paladin for around 26 damage per hit
Mr Paladin deals around 55 damage per hit (very low number). Goons can average around a healthy 50% damage reduction so the pally is hitting you for 22.5 damage per hit.

"Ahrall what's the point?"

A class that is purely dps based that revolves almost entirely on left clicks is dealing 3 (3!) less damage than the tanky healer. Considering the fact that a paladin's heals can out heal any damage your offensive abilities might have inflicted and you have a very frustrating fight. Did I mention the spammable stun? And the disarm? And the invulnerability? And the lets-try-this-loosing-fight-all-over-again skill? (layhands)
The point it, the very skills that are great to have in a large teamfight to protect your buddies, all greatly benefit you in a 1v1. 4 seconds of invulnerability is good and fun in a teamfight, but when there is nobody else to attack but you it's like having 4 free seconds to do whatever you want to your enemy. Then once the invulnerability is over, stun their ass. You just recieved 6 seconds of uninterrupted damage dealing. Meanwhile you have a massive heal to shrug off any damage you might have sustained and a big fat "restart" button that will turn any loosing fight in your favor

TLDR: Too much healing/damage mitigation in small fights for a class that still deals damage. Also layhands.

 

[Halizu]

Lets say you're playing dragoon. You are dealing around 65 damage per hit (second highest in the game).

I believe Ninjas, Runeblades and Pyromancers do better melee damage than Goons, but still - I agree with everything you put

 

[Xhazed]

I believe Ninjas, Runeblades and Pyromancers do better melee damage than Goons, but still - I agree with everything you put

They are supposed to except for pyro, i think

 

[Dsawemd]

I don't mean to sound cocky...

Don't worry, you do not sound cocky.

HOWEVER, you recently became active again, correct? My #1 from previous post was meant to highlight the numerous reasons why a single player data-set is less than ideal.

 

[Dwarfers]

The state of Paladin right now, I believe, can resemble that of last map minus the fact we have attributes. Last map Paladin had HolyStrike and it did at least 150 damage or so and to fix that this map, HolyStrike was removed. Paladin started out okay at the start of this map until Horses were added. It wasn't until Horses came in that complaints started rolling in about Paladin which I guess is understandable since now Paladin has some mobility.

Lowering Range/Highering Cooldown of DivineStun is understandable. This would result in the stun being slightly harder to hit, but that's where Reckoning comes in to make up for the nerf. Now, the fact Paladin has pretty nice base equipment weight and HP means it would be decently tanky even if you build mainly Strength. I think scaling of damage with Strength should be nerfed or the other option is my worst nightmare that I obviously don't want to do is to reduce paladin base equipment weight or HP.

 

[Egorh]

Although absolution and reckoning are both strong skills-they are its support skills. The only nerf I could see on absolution would be the self heal on it. If you nerf the healing on others too it will just result in the Paladin using it on himself. But as I have mentioned before, the problem is in divine stun and strike/melee damage. Paladin is not suppose to be a DPS class yet it has a skill that does 100 physical damage on a low cooldown. And a stun that lets them get free hits. If you nerf the skills like absolution and reckoning it will end up giving the Paladin less of a reason to be the support they are suppose to be

 

[ArktorianPrinceZ]

Paladin no need nothing. Case closed. Bye

 

[Dsawemd]

Paladin no need nothing. Case closed. Bye

Try to add to conversations with useful information, whether it is Quantitative (Math) or even just Qualitative (your personal gameplay experiences).
edit: your post was ALMOST qualitative data. Please include more info, thank you <3

 

[Dwarfers]

Try to add to conversations with useful information, whether it is Quantitative (Math) or even just Qualitative (your personal gameplay experiences).

That was useful information to me. He stated his qualitative experience that paladin is fine.

I sort of have to agree with the guy in shoutbox on how paladin appears strong now since other classes were nerfed/touched up since to my experience Paladin doesn't get touched a lot.

 

[Egorh]

That was useful information to me. He stated his qualitative experience that paladin is fine.

I sort of have to agree with the guy in shoutbox on how paladin appears strong now since other classes were nerfed/touched up since to my experience Paladin doesn't get touched a lot.

I think strike might've also got fixed. I think for a while it was never working properly.

 

[Avoir]

Halizu dragoon at the moment isn't in a good spot so even if the paladin was shitty it would still beat you.

I don't mean to sound cocky, but back when Dragoon was decent, if I was playing it there was only a handful of people that could beat me in a 1v1. So the fact that I'm getting destroyed by mediocre PvP'ers playing Paladin is relevant to the point I'd say.

 

[devotedworker]

*reading Thread*
*checks the amount of data used to calculate this thread*
couple of weeks... ok Time frame looks decent.
Just one guy (Halizu)....hmmmm so individual skill is a factor...
Just one class match-up (Goon v Pally)... ok this is useless and anecdotal.

1. Try not to make vague posts, specific posts work best. This thread appears to be addressing several issues, none of them effectively. Look at Coolbeans, he cannot tell that this is a Paladin Thread, and is wasting our time with goon suggestions <3.

Addressing thread comments:
2. The skill Lay Hands has been a long cooldown game changer since PvP was invented, HC will likely retain its classic feel of "instant HP to full".
3. Currently Paladin is putting out respectable threat for a front-line tank. A good rework would see Paladin still able to give that frontline Threat while needing a DPS or Healer class to maximize their potential (an example: Raise the CHA scaling on DivineStun and raise the Cooldown, add CHA scaling to Reckoning Range and lower base Range, Lower STR skill scaling). This would offer paladins the option to competitively build more support than they currently are, and this would lead to us all hating solo paladin a bit less.

This is a great idea, and I would love to see a healer needed to keep these "Tanks" opperating. I would love to suggest their healing be removed entirely to make a healer needed more often... but that will never happen >.<

 

[HeroGuy426]

I think what might work about DivineStun being too easytoland/spammable is maybe it could be a small AoE, like 1 block radius, and then make the stun like 1 second max. Then you can use it with Absolution if you're smart, and you'd be able to stun lots of people to keep them off of your buddies, making it just as effective as a tank skill, but then not as effective/easytoland in a 1v1, because the stun isn't as long, and your enemy can focus on dodging it. Opinions?

Then about lots of damage output, here's some ideas:
Base damage nerf on sword,
Lower damage on Absolution a bunch so it's mainly just an AoE forcepull to be used in combination with DivineStun AoE
Either: Increase cd on strike, or remove strike, then add a new skill, which I was about to call provoke, then I remembered that zerker has a skill with that name, but anyway it works differently. PallyProvoke does a small amount of damage, then makes the target do more damage to the paladin for 10 seconds, but does less damage to party members of the pally for 10 seconds.

 

[LordZelkova]

-snip-

I believe you mean Reckoning, Absolution is their heal skill.

 

[yeelowsnow]

I think what might work about DivineStun being too easytoland/spammable is maybe it could be a small AoE, like 1 block radius, and then make the stun like 1 second max. Then you can use it with Absolution if you're smart, and you'd be able to stun lots of people to keep them off of your buddies, making it just as effective as a tank skill, but then not as effective/easytoland in a 1v1, because the stun isn't as long, and your enemy can focus on dodging it. Opinions?

Then about lots of damage output, here's some ideas:
Base damage nerf on sword,
Lower damage on Absolution a bunch so it's mainly just an AoE forcepull to be used in combination with DivineStun AoE
Either: Increase cd on strike, or remove strike, then add a new skill, which I was about to call provoke, then I remembered that zerker has a skill with that name, but anyway it works differently. PallyProvoke does a small amount of damage, then makes the target do more damage to the paladin for 10 seconds, but does less damage to party members of the pally for 10 seconds.

Taunt already does what you're trying to do with pallyprovoke sans the increased damage.

 

[HeroGuy426]

I believe you mean Reckoning, Absolution is their heal skill.

Yea that.

 

[HeroGuy426]

Taunt already does what you're trying to do with pallyprovoke sans the increased damage.

Oh. k. So we don't need a new skill, it's already there. Just need to lower damage output somehow.