ALERT Misunderstandings Regarding What is Illegal and Legal as a "Leveling Box"

[Aerokii]

First off for people that aren't involved with this and that are saying that " you couldn't get hit in these boxes" are people that know nothing of this event and shouldn't be commenting false information. Secondly as you can see if you /pve me that I have over 100 deaths from pigs in or out of these boxes, so the fact that people think the boxes was like a sort of god mode against them are totally wrong and should stop posting in this thread

My mistake- people who can't get hit in these boxes unless they're standing right at the edge. I've seen these boxes in other maps. It's not impossible to be killed, but it's much, much harder (except for when you leave to bring more pigs back, at which point yeah, that's highly dangerous). I'm not commenting on your specific instance Franky, I say this only generally.

 

[Xargun]

I've seen some of the boxes constructed and used some with godmode off. I still took damage (Although a great amount less) - it really depends the specific instances. The reach on those mobs can usually hit you 'every now and then' but it is greatly different.

Either way, I'm investigating this - I won't change what has happened on the fly because are crying about using things to their advantage but I won't let their cries fall on deaf ears, so I'm doing my due diligence to ensure things are handled correctly.

I think this says it all. Let Kainzo (and staff) look everything over and he'll make a decision in a day or two. Perhaps a general rule should be made and then review each de-leveling player on a case by case basis (not sure how many there were). Some people (especially new players) may not have known it was illegal, where older players should have known better. Now before you hate on me I said Should - there are lots of reasons why you might have thought it was legal - we've all used terrain to our advantage in PVE and PVP and not thought much about it (enderman umbrellas). The Staff should take their time on this and come back with new rule(s) that clarify their position on using terrain / structures against mobs / players and revise the punishments as well. Then we can all move forward together with Staff and Players understanding the rules better.

 

[Eldrylars]

This is such a difficult area for everyone. The Minecraft mechanics are so powerful with construction and design that there is no way for the limited AI controls to deal with player ingenuity.
For instance, Rangers, Bards and every other bow class can sit out of aggro range and kill mobs with 0% risk as they will not aggro unless you are at a close distance. Pillering up, Boxing in, Pits, Bridges, Umbrellas, Fencing/other delaying tactics.... There are tons of things players can and will think of to give themselves an advantage and help themselves win.

As a developer myself I have always taken the stand that if a player can do it without exploiting and only using in game mechanics, that it should be allowed and that if the developer does not want it to happen that they should code the changes to make it so, and not make rules and punishments for a player using what he/she is given.
For Herocraft, I understand the development teams frustration. They are working with a limited and flawed system. Minecraft was never meant to be a RPG. It was not designed to hold back the ingenuity of players but to embrace it. While that is great for those creative players who want to build great constructs, it's also infuriating for the developers of Herocraft as they have to either stop development of projects that would enhance the game play by adding new features and RPG elements to work on the impossibly limited game mechanics or they have to create "rules" to try to stop players from doing something that is completely legitimate and within the confines of the system.

It's always a hard call, but as for where we are and what this hurts it's of minimal consequences. With nightly butchers the darkrooms/cave systems are no longer effecting the mobs spawn rate as they used to. With the spawner XP turned town to 1% you cannot easily gain levels on mobs from a spawn. Many many players have already mastered multiple classes so honestly where is the harm in allowing new players to get into the game faster?

As an example, at the end of the last map Kainzo was attempting to make the Nether a more appealing place to level, since it was almost never used. He raised the XP to x6(I believe) this number is about right) and lowered the mob difficulty a ton, but this was never tested as the map was resetting and no one cared to level. Well when Haven went live, Umbra rushed to get the first leveled Necro and went off to the nether, once there, they activated a 200% xp boost(or someone did) and they proceeded to master 2-3 classes a day, while getting 1,100 XP per Pigman. Now I will say I am jealous at the ease that they mastered all their classes, and at the speed that they used a flawed system, but they did not cheat. They knew that the XP was way to high and they took advantage of it legitimately. Once they had used the hell out of it and the problem was seen, if was fixed and the XP was cut by 1/3 for everyone else, but Umbra was not deleved. They should not have been, as they used what was given to them by the system.

My personal feelings are that until this can be controlled by the game and not by written rules that players are supposed to follow, and while the game itself does no enforce them through design, that players should be able to use what is available to them to advance.

Potential quicker fixes,

If a Pigman is unable to reach a player after 5 seconds and is being hit by that player, and his XYZ has not changed more then +-5 in those 5 seconds, to teleport on top of the player!
EDIT:
Even better and most likely better on resources, Tie it to the player not the Mob. If the players XYZ has not changed more then +-5 in the last 5 seconds and the last damaged mob has not been able to close the distance then the mob will teleport on top of the Player

 

[Dakinara]

I share a lot of these opinions, I know staff is working really hard to make an adventure map, and at that point there may be more capacity for interesting and challenging pve content. But challenging / interesting pve content is really hard and time consuming to make, which is a big part of why the server and many multiplayer servers across all games have a strong pvp focus, even if server owners / administrators did not intend it to be. PVP = player generated content, and we are all more than happy to generate content lol.

I am of the opinion (probably minority) that, given the mechanics of minecraft, it should basically be anything goes for killing mobs on haven / nether / ruins, with the intent of helping new players level up and for everyone to try new classes. I understand there are reasons the staff dont want this, but it is very hard to moderate and a large number of players just want to level up to pvp / be able to better protect their towns / spend more time building things. If possible, give more mobs abilities like range attack / teleport to make them more challenging / bypass some of the issues modifying the environment creates. I thought some of the boss mobs introduced last map were pretty fun - maybe if they had health closer to normal mobs, but many more mobs had boss type abilities, could make things interesting. Dunno if that would cause a lot of information load strain on server?

 

[Kainzo]

This is such a difficult area for everyone. The Minecraft mechanics are so powerful with construction and design that there is no way for the limited AI controls to deal with player ingenuity.
For instance, Rangers, Bards and every other bow class can sit out of aggro range and kill mobs with 0% risk as they will not aggro unless you are at a close distance. Pillering up, Boxing in, Pits, Bridges, Umbrellas, Fencing/other delaying tactics.... There are tons of things players can and will think of to give themselves an advantage and help themselves win.

As a developer myself I have always taken the stand that if a player can do it without exploiting and only using in game mechanics, that it should be allowed and that if the developer does not want it to happen that they should code the changes to make it so, and not make rules and punishments for a player using what he/she is given.
For Herocraft, I understand the development teams frustration. They are working with a limited and flawed system. Minecraft was never meant to be a RPG. It was not designed to hold back the ingenuity of players but to embrace it. While that is great for those creative players who want to build great constructs, it's also infuriating for the developers of Herocraft as they have to either stop development of projects that would enhance the game play by adding new features and RPG elements to work on the impossibly limited game mechanics or they have to create "rules" to try to stop players from doing something that is completely legitimate and within the confines of the system.

It's always a hard call, but as for where we are and what this hurts it's of minimal consequences. With nightly butchers the darkrooms/cave systems are no longer effecting the mobs spawn rate as they used to. With the spawner XP turned town to 1% you cannot easily gain levels on mobs from a spawn. Many many players have already mastered multiple classes so honestly where is the harm in allowing new players to get into the game faster?

As an example, at the end of the last map Kainzo was attempting to make the Nether a more appealing place to level, since it was almost never used. He raised the XP to x6(I believe) this number is about right) and lowered the mob difficulty a ton, but this was never tested as the map was resetting and no one cared to level. Well when Haven went live, Umbra rushed to get the first leveled Necro and went off to the nether, once there, they activated a 200% xp boost(or someone did) and they proceeded to master 2-3 classes a day, while getting 1,100 XP per Pigman. Now I will say I am jealous at the ease that they mastered all their classes, and at the speed that they used a flawed system, but they did not cheat. They knew that the XP was way to high and they took advantage of it legitimately. Once they had used the hell out of it and the problem was seen, if was fixed and the XP was cut by 1/3 for everyone else, but Umbra was not deleved. They should not have been, as they used what was given to them by the system.

My personal feelings are that until this can be controlled by the game and not by written rules that players are supposed to follow, and while the game itself does no enforce them through design, that players should be able to use what is available to them to advance.

Potential quicker fixes,

If a Pigman is unable to reach a player after 5 seconds and is being hit by that player, and his XYZ has not changed more then +-5 in those 5 seconds, to teleport on top of the player!
EDIT:
Even better and most likely better on resources, Tie it to the player not the Mob. If the players XYZ has not changed more then +-5 in the last 5 seconds and the last damaged mob has not been able to close the distance then the mob will teleport on top of the Player

I largely agree with your sentiments on this issue.

However, as a server, we're torn. I don't like saying "This is how we've always done things, hence this is why we do things now". The biggest issue is players who 1) try to level afk, 2) abuse game mechanics to get a free ride to max level with little vested. We have de-leveld hundreds of players from afk leveling in a box/area that they could not take damage from. This is one of the few cases where it is in the nether and mobs arent easily siphoned or spawned, so players, to attemp to bypass risk (unlawlfully under current rules) made a box to level faster.

The mechanics are too limiting and for the expansive project we're doing - the vanilla game-play is greatly dead and there are carry overs from this corpse that can make our life harder in the RPG side of the game.

I will be reviewing the rules and incidents cited here. The admins acted based on our previous rules with spawners/boxes and did not do so as a personal bias or vendetta on any specific player or faction.

I request that you be patient while this is reviewed and know that if you are unsure of something, you should ask.

 

[victim130]

A mass de-leveling is usually passed up the chain, but in this case, I heard nothing.
I'm investigating this situation

@LightningCape Just for records sake, this is what I meant.

 

[victim130]

I'm gonna be even more of a man then I was earlier. While I myself never leveled in the nether, I did use a box to help others (Was a well constructed fortress tbh) As a max level beguiler, I died many times. One thing to keep in mind is that Pigmen spawn infinitely, but not in your chunk meaning that players need to round up these pigmen and risk death. Sometimes, it even seemed like it was more tedious or difficult to do this.

 

[OliverDollar]

I'm gonna be even more of a man then I was earlier. While I myself never leveled in the nether, I did use a box to help others (Was a well constructed fortress tbh) As a max level beguiler, I died many times. One thing to keep in mind is that Pigmen spawn infinitely, but not in your chunk meaning that players need to round up these pigmen and risk death. Sometimes, it even seemed like it was more tedious or difficult to do this.

This. It was a long process and to be honest I only went to the nether a few times to level and usually only when there was a boost because it was just too tedious to be a good way to level even with the boxes. I wanted to enjoy my time on Herocraft, which for the most part is leveling up, not grind exp.

 

[Dielan9999]

I'm gonna be even more of a man then I was earlier. While I myself never leveled in the nether, I did use a box to help others (Was a well constructed fortress tbh) As a max level beguiler, I died many times. One thing to keep in mind is that Pigmen spawn infinitely, but not in your chunk meaning that players need to round up these pigmen and risk death. Sometimes, it even seemed like it was more tedious or difficult to do this.

On that note, I've attacked people in the Nether who were using leveling boxes - breaking blocks to get in. If my name on the block log indicates I qualify for de-leveling for that alone I will be very upset.

 

[Blackpatcher]

I've seen some of the boxes constructed and used some with godmode off. I still took damage (Although a great amount less) - it really depends the specific instances. The reach on those mobs can usually hit you 'every now and then' but it is greatly different.

Either way, I'm investigating this - I won't change (or overturn an admin on) what has happened on the fly because of crying about using things to their advantage but I won't let their cries fall on deaf ears, so I'm doing my due diligence to ensure things are handled correctly.

If this is the case and you still took damage not matter how decreased then surely no rules have been broken?
The rule states if the mob cannot damage you then its illegal but if they can then its legal. After reading though the individual comments on this thread it also seem apparent that the evidence that was supposedly found against these players is significantly flawed too. If I am correct players were punished if they had modified these "nether boxes". That to me seems kind of stupid considering modifying those boxes could of been due to a bunch of reasons.

I myself have been to the nether to level. On a number of occasions I have constructed "safezones" which consist of little rooms that I will retreat too after taking considerable damage from pigmen. From there I would regen health though the use of food and skills and then run back outside to continue the fight. Would my "rooms" be considered illegal?

I hope not.

 

[Lushen]

If this is the case and you still took damage not matter how decreased then surely no rules have been broken?
The rule states if the mob cannot damage you then its illegal but if they can then its legal. After reading though the individual comments on this thread it also seem apparent that the evidence that was supposedly found against these players is significantly flawed too. If I am correct players were punished if they had modified these "nether boxes". That to me seems kind of stupid considering modifying those boxes could of been due to a bunch of reasons.

I myself have been to the nether to level. On a number of occasions I have constructed "safezones" which consist of little rooms that I will retreat too after taking considerable damage from pigmen. From there I would regen health though the use of food and skills and then run back outside to continue the fight. Would my "rooms" be considered illegal?

I hope not.

you would think that your room would not be illegal but the way they are looking at the evidence(well in Gabs view), he would consider your room "illegal"

 

[Eldrylars]

However, as a server, we're torn. I don't like saying "This is how we've always done things,

There will always be the status quo and the new procedures. Games such as Herocraft are always in a state of growth and change, and as the changes happens the rules and methods need to, and will; evolve with it.

The biggest issue is players who 1)try to level afk,

This is a terrible fight that most MMO's have fought since the beginning of time! People even found ways to automate never winter nights on AOL like two decades ago. In Darkfall online I personally swam into a wall for over 1500 hours(I am not kidding) to get my character effective.
I don't need to tell you that this is one of the greatest goals to try to accomplish in an MMO and one of the hardest things to try to stop. I have spent many hours trying to come up with engaging systems that would keep the progress long but fun and engaging all the way through. I still have not cracked it.
I am all for punishment for using outside tools to play the game for you while AFK, and hope that the market finds a way to remove the desire/need to do this in some games.

2) abuse game mechanics to get a free ride to max level with little vested.

I have already stated in length above my feelings on this, but I will say that I would call it an "easier ride" as people still die even with their boxes

The mechanics are too limiting and for the expansive project we're doing - the vanilla game-play is greatly dead and there are carry overs from this corpse that can make our life harder in the RPG side of the game.

God it's terrifying! Not only are you constrained by the initial limitation, but then you are constrained by secondary components like buckett and then even after you successfully make something work, when MC decides to update you have to re-write almost everything! I am both impressed by your successes so far as well as terrified that one day you will all snap and be sent off to a psych ward, especially poor Gabi.

I will be reviewing the rules and incidents cited here. The admins acted based on our previous rules with spawners/boxes and did not do so as a personal bias or vendetta on any specific player or faction.

I request that you be patient while this is reviewed and know that if you are unsure of something, you should ask.

Best course of action as things are now +1

 

[weynard]

If Kainzo wants to retroactively change the rule in question to allow for the exploitation of blocks to level up, that's his decision. It's ex post facto legislation, but since it doesn't violate nulla poena sine lege, there's nothing wrong with it from a legislatory point of view.

I only find it sad how Kainzo caters to a bunch of whiny bitches that were violating a rule instead of making a thread and asking to get it changed. i mean, why put yourself in danger when you have the arguments necessary to convince the founders of your opinion? IMO, everyone that got deleveled purposefully violated a rule and deserved everything that came for them.

 

[Solidze]

Just saying this, not that I am impatient about this situation being resolved or not. But what will be the conclusion? Will all the resets be reverted and a new rule set in place? I only ask for the sake of some people, like myself, who found themselfs reset and are trying they're best to stick with this server by releveling after this...... I don't want to master lost soul again and again just to be reverted back.

 

[Angyles]

Just saying this, not that I am impatient about this situation being resolved or not. But what will be the conclusion? Will all the resets be reverted and a new rule set in place? I only ask for the sake of some people, like myself, who found themselfs reset and are trying they're best to stick with this server by releveling after this...... I don't want to master lost soul again and again just to be reverted back.

A decision has not been made yet as far as I know, and I am sure when one is you will all be notified.

All the Admins can do is ask that you all be patient, as much as you would not like to. =P I am not privy to the conversations, but I am sure it is being discussed.

 

[XenZan]

However, as a server, we're torn. I don't like saying "This is how we've always done things, hence this is why we do things now".

Sometimes, that IS the best answer. As ugly as it can be. Otherwise, you get people complaining about changing punishments.

The biggest issue is players who 1) try to level afk, 2) abuse game mechanics to get a free ride to max level with little vested. We have de-leveld hundreds of players from afk leveling in a box/area that they could not take damage from. This is one of the few cases where it is in the nether and mobs arent easily siphoned or spawned, so players, to attemp to bypass risk (unlawlfully under current rules) made a box to level faster.

I agree with 1 and 2, honestly. I think the real issue is whether the rules were clear enough. I think I'm starting to come around.

The mechanics are too limiting and for the expansive project we're doing - the vanilla game-play is greatly dead and there are carry overs from this corpse that can make our life harder in the RPG side of the game.

This I can perfectly understand. No one can expect you to do more than you are capable of with a limited medium. I've been thoroughly impressed with what you HAVE done so far DESPITE it.

The admins acted based on our previous rules with spawners/boxes and did not do so as a personal bias or vendetta on any specific player or faction.

In all truth, this is as fair as it gets. I don't have any doubts or problems with the staff here. They may be a little terse, but I wouldn't want to explain myself to hundreds of people over and over all day. In the end, it's their call, and the community will accept it, and those that don't haven't much choice.
That really is one of the things I love about this staff, honestly. They are generally very good at what they do, and when major issues arise, Kainzo steps in if necessary. Nothing may even change as a result of all this, but it shows commitment. I can appreciate that.

On that note, I've attacked people in the Nether who were using leveling boxes - breaking blocks to get in. If my name on the block log indicates I qualify for de-leveling for that alone I will be very upset.

Now THIS is certainly something to be concerned about, and another reason I'm glad there is an ongoing investigation. Not everyone who modified these boxes would have been using them. It is probably difficult, though maybe not impossible to discern between the two.

I have already stated in length above my feelings on this, but I will say that I would call it an "easier ride" as people still die even with their boxes

I will say that I personally am not involved in any way with the issue at hand, these have all just been my opinions, but I have had experience in SMP using safe boxes in the nether to grind pigmen. I've not seen the boxes used in this situation, but I know that the ones I use in single player are 100% safe while within. My understanding is that the only real danger is when you are bringing more mobs back to the box, and the challenge is to get back without dying and replace the barrier before they get inside with you. If this is the case, there is no danger while actually using the box, while danger is present when outside of it.

 

[Yavool]

Falls under "If the mob can't damage you but you can damage it..."

This will be a none-issue once mobs can summon / range damage players. This will take some time to implement though.

Last map, a townsfolk of mine was given permission by an admin (this player is not active at the moment, so I am unsure of the name of the admin) to make a bunker in the nether that consisted of three doors: 2 which players could enter into, and 1 which mobs would enter into and be "trapped" within a 1 block by 5 block area, as he proved to the admin that zombie pigmen could in fact still hit players a good amount of the time. From what I understand, there was a small spread of space (akin to a golf club's "sweet spot") where someone using a weapon could hit the pigman but cannot be hit; but that the space itself is difficult to maintain, and more often than not, mobs could still hit players (and die as a result of their injuries).

This was subsequently permitted last map after another townsfolk had requested permission to make a redstone contraption within the nether that would contain and occasionally crush a zombie pigman down in health...the redstone contraption itself, upon review, was found to be not an abuse by us, but we were told to take it down because it had the "potential for abuse" by others if it were allowed to fall into the hands of those who have a more exploitation-minded personality. The 3 door bunker in which it was house was allowed to remain standing.

As I said last night in-game, as a student of law, we have the doctrine of "ex post facto law" in the United States, which means "from after the action" or "after the fact." It basically says that clarifications of the law or new statutory contruction of the law is being retroatively administered to those who, under the new definition, would have been impacted by it. Ex post fact law is banned in most of the United States as a overly punitive means to punish people for laws that were not in effect when they engaged in the action.

I argue that this "clarification" of the rule and those who have been punished by having their levels wiped is an "ex post facto" situation. Given the fact that there has been precedence set that such bunkers not only have been present to the naked eye (both admin and players alike) all throughout the overworld and the nether on Bastion as well as Haven, and given the fact that there have been mixed signals by Herocraft's admins about the legality of them to the point where there are those who can argue that they were permissible, I see that it would be in the best interest of all involved to give back the levels gained from such bunkers and or mob killing means up until the clarifying post made yesterday, and then say something along the lines of:

"Henceforth, all bunkers, pillars, or other means of dealing damage to mobs in such a manner that they cannot deal damage back to you is now prohibited and will result in suspension and/or reset of the levels gained by such behavior."

With this being said, however, my caveats to this are multiple:

1) any ranger and or bow user can hit a mob at a distance that is out of their line of sight, and kill them without drawing aggro. I wonder how the melee player's use of damage dealing with a mitigated chance of getting dealt damage any different;

2) this is a RPG server; and anyone who has ever played Dungeons & Dragons, or any MMORPG knows that effective use of the terrain can be the difference between life and death. Using a bunker to be safe in order to heal, and then killing the mob that was aggroed on you in order to get out of the spot so that the player can fight again in the open should not be considered an abuse or violation of such a rule;

3) The policing of such a policy better darn well be consistent, just, and fair; the manner in which this punishment happened torqued quite a few people off, including veterans and newcomers alike. I request that you listen to the players that patronize your server (both contributors and non-contributors) at the same responsive level that you would like them to listen to the clear and concisely-written rules and regulations of the server. If there is vagueness (clear as mud) or ambiguity (could mean multiple things) in the rules, then I request that those rules be reworked; and that the more unclear the rule, the more deference (and lower the initial punishment) given to the players who might have violated them, up until they are aware of the rule, or the rule has been clarified (as in this situation).

Last night, a mod said in-game, in response to the tirade of an active player who had gotten reset, "Maybe this isn't the right server for you and you should go elsewhere." I argue that this is certainly *not* the method to win votes of popularity in a competitive Minecraft server environment, and that such actions undermine the value of this server over others.

I respectfully request that the decision to reset the members who were were found to be in violation prior to the clarifiction be reversed. I also request that in the future, such punitive actions against any group of Herocraft members be handled differently. One manner of doing so is to give what is known as "actual notice," where the change or clarification is posted and or sent to all active members via an email or PM and a period of time is given to adjust to the change, instead of what was given, known as "implied notice," which is akin to "well, you SHOULD have known," which is a softer and much more passive-aggressive method of communication.

Thank you,

-yav

 

[Kainzo]

If Kainzo wants to retroactively change the rule in question to allow for the exploitation of blocks to level up, that's his decision. It's ex post facto legislation, but since it doesn't violate nulla poena sine lege, there's nothing wrong with it from a legislatory point of view.

I only find it sad how Kainzo caters to a bunch of whiny bitches that were violating a rule instead of making a thread and asking to get it changed. i mean, why put yourself in danger when you have the arguments necessary to convince the founders of your opinion? IMO, everyone that got deleveled purposefully violated a rule and deserved everything that came for them.

The issue isn't whether or not they were breaking the rules, my issue is clarity and severity of punishment based on the clarity.

As stated numerous times, I'm simply reviewing what was done since it affected several users to ensure fairness. I don't like toe stepping my moderation/administration team - they do a great job and Herocraft would be far worse if it were just me running it.

The key points here are:

1. Were the rules clear?
2. Was the evidence profound/sufficient?
3. Was the punishment too severe for those involved?
4. Should we change our stance on such leveling means?

I believe we run a fair ship, one which doesn't come to port often enough in Minecraft. Just being able to listen to the rants should count for something

 

[Delfofthebla]

This thread is hilarious. I know most of the players that are crying about this, and I find it very hard to believe that any of you thought that this was legal. Looks to me more like everyone is banding together to backlash in hopes of getting their levels back.

jst syn

 

[LightningCape]

@LightningCape Just for records sake, this is what I meant.

Hope I didn't come off as too strong. No hard feelings.