Heroes

[MajorasMask]

This is probably the main reason why MA is detrimental. Mobhunting is so much more enjoyable than MA. Also, in legit mobhunting, you cannot "grind". You just hope to find a large group of mobs. Despite the fact that mobhunting is fun, though, MA still has a greater appeal. Why? Well, some people have enough time on their hands and are willing enough to endure the boredom that they basically master in a day or two. The new guy who logs on and starts mobhunting gets butchered by the MA-bred 55 whatever that, due to mastery, now can pretty much walk around and slaughter whomsoever they want. There's also a sense of competition, where the new people want to level up as fast as they can to compete with the veterans. For fast and relatively safe leveling, everyone goes to MA. Then there was that awful period where very few mobs spawned in the wild... MA was the only option then. MA is boring 95% of the time, and the other 5% it's just irritating because of the idiots you get teamed up with. It is basically mobgrinding, but in a situation where you can get hurt.

Another problem with MA is that in many groups, most of the people won't play if there is an unspec with them. This makes no sense to me; How do you spec when mobhunting gets you slaughtered or if you joined in that period where mobs didn't spawn? If you wanted to alienate players, not playing MA with unspecs is a pretty good way to do it. And in the occasions where unspecs DO play, they often don't make it very far because of their weak armor/HP/skills and the amount of mobs jumping on them.

Mobhunting is fun. It's probably one of the easiest ways to make money. It takes time, though,... but how is that a bad thing? Some players have like 10 specs mastered from MA that they did in weeks. Some even have the money to switch at leisure. HC is supposed to support player cooperation, but if a rich guy can do everything himself, that doesn't really work out. Another thing about mobhunting: it encourages PvP.

Yes, PvP is encouraged by mobhunting. So, in the area I live in ingame, we and our neighbors were once raided constantly.From the time I joined up until the implementation of MA, raids were incessant. They dropped off about when MA released, but at the time, I just thought it was a coincidence. Everyone would go to MA to get levels and rewards. Raiders would come to towns and there would be no one there to fight. Marauders would go out to kill travelers and mobhunters, but both were at MA. Also, would-be raiders would fail to attack their target, go to MA to get mastery, return to attack the target and realize that in the time they spent at MA, their enemies had had time to build massive walls. People complain about no world PvP. Don't you think there would be more of that if people had to be outside of towns and safezones hunting mobs? The MA situation improved a little bit when they migrated to the wild because people had to walk there through PvP, but there were still safe zones at the MAs. Some suggested that removing no-PvP around Temple would increase it, because many people went to Temple to MA or borderhop. People went to Temple because it was easy to access, had a safe area to wait for MA, and they could PvP without dying. When no-PvP was removed, people became vulnerable there. Within a couple days, people just stopped using Temple and went to other MAs. As long as there are MAs with some form of no-PvP, people will find a legal way to level up without major PvPing. If no-PvP is completely removed, no one will use MA. They will be useless both as grinders and as centralized PvP areas. People will just revert to mobhunting. PvP will happen then, but there will still be no centralized areas and MA will be defunct.

In a Herocraft where mobhunting is the only way to level, people have fun leveling, people who are leveling run into people in the same situation and get into legitimately fair fights, raiders have a greater chance of actually finding people at the town they're after (even if they can't get them), marauders actually find people to kill in the wilderness, and nobody has like 10 mastered specs to choose from even if they have a lot of money. Classes might still be unbalanced, but players would be much less so.

MA is boring, irritating grinding that discourages fair PvP and alienates new players through imbalance and boredom. I think a lot more people would be satisfied without it.

Oh, and if it wasn't clear, a lack of MAs would make it impossible for every major PvP group to switch to whatever class is OP that day, actually requiring them to have some skill.

This thread hasn't got much to do with MAs, i'm sure. The first post was about the Heroes plug-in. MAs allow people to level up, alongside MOB Hunting, without the worry from staff of people abusing Mob Spawners. In any game, you're going to have to grind at some stage to level up.

 

[Joka10]

The thread is about Heroes, but in a sense that it is detrimental to the server. I disagree, and I think the thing that is detrimental is MA. Sorry for going offtopic... I guess... though I don't see how that's any further away from Heroes than talking about township systems or wars, personally.

 

[weynard]

This thread hasn't got much to do with MAs, i'm sure. The first post was about the Heroes plug-in. MAs allow people to level up, alongside MOB Hunting, without the worry from staff of people abusing Mob Spawners. In any game, you're going to have to grind at some stage to level up.

Just saying... the OP wasn't about town regions either, and lookit, what did you write on the page before this one?

Anyway, if we can have a sister server that we can have work the way the Sanctum vets would like (less WOW, more township oriented but still Hardcore), I don't see any point in arguing with people that are going to defend the current system no matter what.

 

[MajorasMask]

MAs are important in terms of Heroes. Without them, people would need to find MOBs to hunt in the wild. It can be very hard, plus dark-rooms are illegal too. MAs offer a place to train, at a cost. I say they help. As for long grinding, you could take ages trying to level through MOB hunting.... just saying....

 

[Aetosion]

Hey guys, if you want to talk about killing small towns and making big kingdoms, head here- and quit derailing this thread.

 

[Hydroking77]

I am finding mobs all over the place.
(Sorry for the offtopic)

 

[Joka10]

MAs are important in terms of Heroes. Without them, people would need to find MOBs to hunt in the wild. It can be very hard, plus dark-rooms are illegal too. MAs offer a place to train, at a cost. I say they help. As for long grinding, you could take ages trying to level through MOB hunting.... just saying....

It should take ages... there is no reason for someone to have 10 different specs mastered within a month of joining.

 

[HolyRane]

It should take ages... there is no reason for someone to have 10 different specs mastered within a month of joining.

If they put the time into it, why not

 

[Kwong050]

there are no wars cuz no one raids lorien

 

[Shadownub]

The two biggest points I see on this thread are enforcing the rules more strictly and removing MA. MobArena just doesn't add to Herocraft as much as it takes away from it, and while it's fun to play with a good team, it just draws everyone away from mob hunting and PVP, imo.

As for enforcing the rules - when I first joined Herocraft, as someone before me has said, I feared them. They were enforced very, very strictly, and I knew that if I went wrong, I would be banned. These days people go out and break the rules knowing that they'll only get a minor punishment and come out of their ban relatively clean...

I miss Herocraft before Heroes, but I can't imagine Herocraft without Heroes anymore.
In terms of encouraging pvp, most walls can be broken through, if you have the supplies. I agree that people build just for the sake of security fortresses these days, but what do you expect?

My opinion in a nutshell:
- Remove MA
- Enforce rules much more strictly and severely for both newcomers and oldies alike
- (Maybe) set a limitation on how much security a town can have: Eg, ban town roofs, which renders just about every town's outer security breakable
- Remove graveyards so everyone spawns at SPAWN - makes road combat more intense andc common
- Give an incentive of some sort for raiding people: For example, make dirt-chest locking illegal, so the only proper chest protection is that of expensive LWCs.

Yes, this wouldn't bring the time of Sanctum back, but I think it would spice things up a little. Because Dragongarde is very simple to me atm - fight outside towns, cower inside if you don't want to fight, and sit at spawn or within your own town or in the MAs if you don't particularly care.

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[kevinlive]

The two biggest points I see on this thread are enforcing the rules more strictly and removing MA. MobArena just doesn't add to Herocraft as much as it takes away from it, and while it's fun to play with a good team, it just draws everyone away from mob hunting and PVP, imo.

As for enforcing the rules - when I first joined Herocraft, as someone before me has said, I feared them. They were enforced very, very strictly, and I knew that if I went wrong, I would be banned. These days people go out and break the rules knowing that they'll only get a minor punishment and come out of their ban relatively clean...

I miss Herocraft before Heroes, but I can't imagine Herocraft without Heroes anymore.
In terms of encouraging pvp, most walls can be broken through, if you have the supplies. I agree that people build just for the sake of security fortresses these days, but what do you expect?

My opinion in a nutshell:
- Remove MA
- Enforce rules much more strictly and severely for both newcomers and oldies alike
- (Maybe) set a limitation on how much security a town can have: Eg, ban town roofs, which renders just about every town's outer security breakable
- Remove graveyards so everyone spawns at SPAWN - makes road combat more intense andc common
- Give an incentive of some sort for raiding people: For example, make dirt-chest locking illegal, so the only proper chest protection is that of expensive LWCs.

Yes, this wouldn't bring the time of Sanctum back, but I think it would spice things up a little. Because Dragongarde is very simple to me atm - fight outside towns, cower inside if you don't want to fight, and sit at spawn or within your own town or in the MAs if you don't particularly care.

Sorry for going off topic.

You sir, are epic.

 

[MajorasMask]

My opinion in a nutshell:
- Remove MA
- Enforce rules much more strictly and severely for both newcomers and oldies alike
- (Maybe) set a limitation on how much security a town can have: Eg, ban town roofs, which renders just about every town's outer security breakable
- Remove graveyards so everyone spawns at SPAWN - makes road combat more intense andc common
- Give an incentive of some sort for raiding people: For example, make dirt-chest locking illegal, so the only proper chest protection is that of expensive LWCs.

- Removing MA, I can see how this would work, and won't work. There are many pros and cons to it. Sure, if you remove it then people go back to MOB Hunting, but that would be the only method of exp gaining (other than PvP). There arn't anymore MOB Spawners because most of them got removed too, so it would be difficult for new players to level up.

- The enforcement of rules is a good one. I saw this weaken in Zeal, whereas people DIDN'T get banned for breaking a few blocks!

- Not all towns want to do PvP, even heard of the term ''Neutral''? They paid for the regions, and I feel that they should have the right to do what they like in their towns. If a town wants PvP, then they won't do that sort of stuff. Even the ''PvP'' towns have forms of defence, Akahi has the barrier that is the volcano, and Lorien has a giant tree and dirt blocks. You can remove the walls and glass roof, but people will just go hide underground.

- I like the graveyard idea. Maybe have it so that there are less of them towards the spawn, having graveyards only at the edge of the map (Come now, walking 5000+ blocks from spawn is a bit harsh! ). With less graves near spawn, people will go directly back to 0,0, making them NEED to use the roads, or, the Herogates. Full support on this point, I feel it will put use to the main 4 roads again.

- The problem with chests is that people want their stuff protected. It has been legal to put blocks over chests, ever since Sanctum, and it hasn't stopped PvP. I have raided towns plenty of times and have found blocks NOT covering chests. Plus, there is an LWC limit, which sucks for non-donators because we can't protect any more of our stuff.

To be honest, your points favor PvP a little too much. You said you want it to go back to the ''Sanctum'' days, when, many things you said were perfectly legal in Sanctum, and in Zeal, and never effected PvP overall (Blocks over chests, town walls, roofs, ect).

 

[Shadownub]

- Removing MA, I can see how this would work, and won't work. There are many pros and cons to it. Sure, if you remove it then people go back to MOB Hunting, but that would be the only method of exp gaining (other than PvP). There arn't anymore MOB Spawners because most of them got removed too, so it would be difficult for new players to level up.

I see your point here, and it is true that there aren't many mob spawners left. It would be possible to put some back around, but I think anything is better than leaving MAs around, to be honest. Although this is very valid, and perhaps we'll have to keep MAs until next map as a result.

- The enforcement of rules is a good one. I saw this weaken in Zeal, whereas people DIDN'T get banned for breaking a few blocks!

- Not all towns want to do PvP, even heard of the term ''Neutral''? They paid for the regions, and I feel that they should have the right to do what they like in their towns. If a town wants PvP, then they won't do that sort of stuff. Even the ''PvP'' towns have forms of defence, Akahi has the barrier that is the volcano, and Lorien has a giant tree and dirt blocks. You can remove the walls and glass roof, but people will just go hide underground.

PvP towns if anything are the ones that have the most defensive barriers, because they're the ones who attract attention. I know that many towns simply don't want to get into PVP (Although many Neutral towns aren't quite as Neutral as they'd seem ), but I think those towns' issues by it becoming possible for raiders to enter towns are far outweighed by the sheer damage to the game being done by invulnerable bases. If you don't want PVP - stay defensive and stay away from attention, but don't go attacking people, and you'll generally be fine, because people will like you - and people are more social than violent in most cases.

Honestly, it shouldn't be easy to get into bases, but it certainly shouldn't be impossible, in ANY case. Hiding underground is also valid so long as there's some way in. I don't know exactly how that can be done, but it can be. It'd be nice to see raiding go from "waitforhostiletoaccidentallyopendoor andthen getinsideandrape" to a stage by stage invasion - while I am STRONGLY against 'organised' war where you are forced to do things in war that limits Heroes tactics, apart from minor things like capturing an Inn to claim a certain part of a town or such and such - where you break through one defensive barrier, and then you are confronted by the next, where your enemies will have regrouped and will be attempting to push you back.

- I like the graveyard idea. Maybe have it so that there are less of them towards the spawn, having graveyards only at the edge of the map (Come now, walking 5000+ blocks from spawn is a bit harsh! ). With less graves near spawn, people will go directly back to 0,0, making them NEED to use the roads, or, the Herogates. Full support on this point, I feel it will put use to the main 4 roads again.

Walking 5000 blocks is hardcore Railmakers will make a huge profit off of lazy people. Heh. But yeah, glad to have some support here, the roads are pretty much unused right now. They're mostly just for show, seeing as everyone traverses the wilderness from their nearest Graveyard, and most travel is through Herogates from there.

- The problem with chests is that people want their stuff protected. It has been legal to put blocks over chests, ever since Sanctum, and it hasn't stopped PvP. I have raided towns plenty of times and have found blocks NOT covering chests. Plus, there is an LWC limit, which sucks for non-donators because we can't protect any more of our stuff.

You'll find that the PVP nature of Zeal began truly because of the lack of Regions at the start of the map leading to an abundance of loot available from targets - before that it was tranquil, like Sanctum. If people want their stuff protected, they should do so with LWC. Township mayors get a LOT of extra LWCs for low cost, which could serve as another advantage of joining towns - having your things protected by your mayor, because mayors stealing your things is illegal. Non-donators can protect a small amount if they're living in the wilderness, but as always, townships hold many benifits. If rules are enforced more strictly, hopefully wilderness homes won't have as much to fear from griefers, though.

To be honest, your points favor PvP a little too much. You said you want it to go back to the ''Sanctum'' days, when, many things you said were perfectly legal in Sanctum, and in Zeal, and never effected PvP overall (Blocks over chests, town walls, roofs, ect).

Yes, they favor PvP a lot, because PvP is what Herocraft is now centered around, as well as the township system. Chest locking, town walls and roofs were legal in Sanctum, but aside from chest dirt locks, they were very, very rarely used - and times have changed. Although I loved Sanctum just as I loved Zeal, my primary aim is to bring Dragongarde to life.

"Yes, this wouldn't bring the time of Sanctum back, but I think it would spice things up a little."

 

[MajorasMask]

I had the idea of maybe making 5-10 ''MOB Spawners'' that players could fight for, nothing regioned but the spawner block itself! Regions couldn't be put over it too. People would come from far and wide to use it, or to fight off anyone trying to claim it.

Yeah, I see how that, if towns don't want PvP, they'll be neutral, and ensure walls and a roof. Many people just don't want to allow people inside of their town though, whether or not they are PvPers. It defeats the purpose of having defences all together. Sure you can have traps, but the best ones operate when someone is online. As for dirt on chests, it was uncommon in Sanctum because many mayors had T3 donator or above, with unlimited LWCs.

Overall the town system, to me, is not something that needs to be changed to boost PvP (other than a town cap, which many have agreed on). Remember the north road in Zeal? That had nothing to do with town walls. Other towns such as Rangpur also had walls, but the players came out to fight. Ironpass did this too, at times. Sure, they had walls, but the actually PvP was down to the community, not what they built.

Times have changed and, due to mass raiding and ''cleaning'' of towns both at the end of Zeal and the begining of Dragon, people feel greatly about making sure their town is safe. If this didn't happen, people might have a different view, to come out of their town and fight, because currently, I just see the idea that people stay within their town to save themselves and their items.

 

[Dielan9999]

Dielan has a huge point in what he has said.
"You come with a party of five, and the town has only two people online. Even if the classes were balanced, would you still expect them to leave their homes knowing they would be outnumbered by hostiles?".

This, is why PvP is worse in DG than it was in Zeal, it has nothing to do with the new PvP system - it is how the townsystem/community works at the moment.
In Zeal towns was huge, and almost every town was a part of a kingdom. You would always have a ton of people online in a single town.

In DG however, towns are small and scattered, and to my knowledge there is only one real kingdom left - XD.
In Zeal we had SSS, KRS, KOE, KILL, and many other kingdoms. What HC needs is not a sanctum era, change in Heroes or something like that. We need to centralise, in DG there is way too many small and inacive towns, we need more kingdoms, more huge towns - and then, maybe next time TC shows up on a towns doorstep, there won't be two members inside who's twidling their fingers and waiting for them to leave. Maybe there will be 10 people in there, who decides to charge out - remember, in mc you will never pvp if the odds are on the other side.

We need urbanization.
(also, the towns in Zeal was way closer to spawn. In DG they are all spread out in a 3500r map).

I don't want to go dig up old HC meeting notes, but right before DG came out Kainzo was talking about a new township system different from what we have. Not different as in the HTTP plugin, but different as in execution.

In the old idea, there would be 4 "Kingdoms" they are different than what "Kingdom" meant in all previous maps and this current one. In this Kingdom it was said ambiguously each one gets a "bedrock skeleton" to build on, and in each of the 4 kingdoms you could only make THREE towns. This way, in each direction N/S/E/W there could only be 3 towns and the main (huge) kingdom town. The King or Queen would be elected by vote and enforced by the staff and make basic decisions for the Kingdoms. The incentive was OUTPOSTS that while under your control give your people passive bonuses, like free money.

In this system, kingdoms could only fall if all the people left it and joined the other three, but it would encourage Kingdom vs Kingdom PVP because of outposts, and the fact that towns in those quadrants are FORCED to be members of those Kingdoms. I don't remember if independent towns were possible, but if so it still had to conform to the three-towns-per-cardinal-direction-rule.

This would force only strong towns to fill the slots, they would grow huge, and PVP would become the perfect blend of Zeal and Sanctum which is constant and grand-scale respectively.


I think it's time the system get worked out so it can be implemented next time we have a map wipe.

 

[Kainzo]

I don't want to go dig up old HC meeting notes, but right before DG came out Kainzo was talking about a new township system different from what we have. Not different as in the HTTP plugin, but different as in execution.

In the old idea, there would be 4 "Kingdoms" they are different than what "Kingdom" meant in all previous maps and this current one. In this Kingdom it was said ambiguously each one gets a "bedrock skeleton" to build on, and in each of the 4 kingdoms you could only make THREE towns. This way, in each direction N/S/E/W there could only be 3 towns and the main (huge) kingdom town. The King or Queen would be elected by vote and enforced by the staff and make basic decisions for the Kingdoms. The incentive was OUTPOSTS that while under your control give your people passive bonuses, like free money.

In this system, kingdoms could only fall if all the people left it and joined the other three, but it would encourage Kingdom vs Kingdom PVP because of outposts, and the fact that towns in those quadrants are FORCED to be members of those Kingdoms. I don't remember if independent towns were possible, but if so it still had to conform to the three-towns-per-cardinal-direction-rule.

This would force only strong towns to fill the slots, they would grow huge, and PVP would become the perfect blend of Zeal and Sanctum which is constant and grand-scale respectively.


I think it's time the system get worked out so it can be implemented next time we have a map wipe.

We decided not to go with this system because it was far too different than what we currently had. Babysteps.

 

[Dielan9999]

We decided not to go with this system because it was far too different than what we currently had. Babysteps.

Well given how many complaints are rolling in, I think a change might be welcome in the near future. Perhaps not the full extent of that plan, but at least outposts , perhaps a cheaper kingdom-startup cost but higher maintenence that can be easily paid with outpost control?

 

[HolyRane]

Well given how many complaints are rolling in, I think a change might be welcome in the near future. Perhaps not the full extent of that plan, but at least outposts , perhaps a cheaper kingdom-startup cost but higher maintenence that can be easily paid with outpost control?

Sounds good

 

[MajorasMask]

Well given how many complaints are rolling in, I think a change might be welcome in the near future. Perhaps not the full extent of that plan, but at least outposts , perhaps a cheaper kingdom-startup cost but higher maintenence that can be easily paid with outpost control?

Cheaper kingdoms and higher maintenence, sounds good! How much cheaper?

 

[Dielan9999]

Cheaper kingdoms and higher maintenence, sounds good! How much cheaper?

Cheap enough to inspire big towns to expand, with enough of a benefit to also inspire independent towns near each other to join together.

Then we will have the size and togetherness of Zeal. That entire map basically comprised of ARC, Killuminati, and OS. In my opinion, that was awesome.

Spoiler: Story time

Back then, someone attacking someone else meant more and to more people. So you had to bring a big force to raid because there would be big opposition. For example, way back when the real Tree Creepers played (before getting banned) I remember sitting in Ares with @GreekCrackShot and like 6 others because an attack was simply RUMORED. Then the attack did happen and it was like an hour of great PVP!

When a town wasn't liked, MANY other towns would gang up on them. Such as what happened with Typhon. Even if that town made their town like DG towns, it would have played out the same.

There is still only so much the server can do, because it would mean promoting large micro-communities like from Zeal by changing the server. It's no easy task. Especially when people have become so accustomed to backstabbing traitors they are slow to recognize new allies as even remotely trustworthy, weather the rules change or not. This is mostly because even if somebody wrongs you and breaks the rules to do it you won't get any of your things back, even if it results in a ban.