Heroes

[weynard]

Heroes pretty much made Herocraft WOW.
I'm not even talking about classes and how overworked the MMORPG setting is. I'm talking about the disadvantages of a (combat) class system.

First of all, balancing. There will always be Balancing issues. There will always be one stupidly OP class and there will also be absolutely crap classes. This is probably due to the fact that Minecrafts primary weapons are sword and bow and there weren't any hints on how to implement mages at first. After that, there came buffs and nerfs. As common sense suggests, there can never be perfect balance, meaning there's always going to be a few classes most people play and a few players whose heart will be terribly broken upon discovering the class they chose is actually shit.

In vanilla PVP, you'd take your full diamond or full iron, depending on what you could afford and go crack some skulls. As Kain mentioned earlier, it was a terrible slaughterhouse. Yes, it was. it was frustrating to get screwed over by fully equipped spawn campers, frustrating to get killed by lag, and some people always seemed to do better than others because of a better connection/skill/strategy- what a truly dark age it was! Thank god Heroes fixed that!
If you hadn't noticed, it didn't. The really frustrating parts of dying in PVP will always remain, no matter with how much fluff you decorate it.

Then again, you could argue that vanilla PVP was way too short and, as Kain mentioned, you can one-hit people in vanilla right now. How about we still get rid of all the combat classes? Globally adjust the HP of all player so that fights will drag on for however long you want them to. Make all damages and Health bars the same for every player. We'd all be equal and nobody could bitch about how the fucking nerd who just killed you was already level 156324670 and had all the cool skills. Nobody could blame their PVP failures on an imbalanced or buggy class system.

"But what shall we do with all the cool skills we have right now? We put so much freaking work into this project!" Well, we did have skills before Heroes, didn't we? We even had a team specialised in hiding them and developing fun dungeons for them! Bring back the dungeon team and hide skills in trees again! We could also give some to Mods, the Loremasters, Guides or Architects! Of course, we couldn't save ALL the skills. But, to be honest, why would we need generic stuff like bladegrasp, Drainsoul or Harmtouch? I say, only keep the unique and useful skills and scrap the rest!

Of course, taking out combat classes would also mean that we'd have a lot less stuff to do- or would we? Pretty much all we'd get rid of would be the time sink that is mob grinding right now that makes it impossible for new players to win against a veteran. We could still keep the professions to make sure people will have a sense of progression.

TL;DR:
- Remove all combat classes, keep professions, introduce default class "Hero" with only one level
- Remove generic skills and skills unfit for vanilla PVP (Strike, SoulLeech, Cleave, Garrote, Track, Backstab, Fireball, Invul, Root, Drainsoul, etc etc)
- Keep useful skills (GroupTeleport, Hellgate, Summonfood, Port, Telekinesis, Taunt, Flameshield, Gills, Pickpocket), limit wolves to 1-2 per person
- Hide skills in solo or group dungeons

Cons:
- No more fancy magic
- Not so cool for advertising
- No more "Persistence pays" for mob grinding, less bragging rights
- We'll lose many of our skills

Pros:
- No more whining about class balancing, equal chances for everybody
- No more whining about how it's going to take you months to catch up
- Focus can move back towards architecture and diplomacy
- No more binds to manage, simplified combat

Any thoughts?
inb4 >Weynard thread

 

[victim130]

Its going against what Kain wants... seems more like a "I stopped playing so you need to work this for me" thread... Although to humor you, I think the old Sanctum way of doing things would be cool, but hardly any of the player base any more even have a clue what Sanctum is.

 

[weynard]

seems more like a "I stopped playing so you need to work this for me" thread...

Well, I went inactive because Heroes made Herocraftr very boring and unneccessarily strainuous for me, so I think it is a legit reason to suggest a change.

EDIT: Whether or not people agree remains to be soon, of course

 

[Aetosion]

I actually think this is an entirely horrid idea. Herocraft is fun because you choose a spec, level it, derp, derp. Balancing happens on every MMORPG-PVP game. I would probably quit this server if it got changed to this. Blech.

 

[HolyRane]

I like the idea of this, sadly the herocraft that was on sanctum no longer is around today. The community that played then has all but left/changed. The new community plays herocraft for HEROES. That is what makes Herocraft so unique, is that unlike other servers, it IS an MMO. Other servers would be just like Herocraft without heroes. I personally LOVE vanilla pvp, because I'm a fucking god at it. I still have yet to get heroes under my belt but it is fun nevertheless. Also, the Herocraft team has put way to much time and effort into the heroes plugin, MA's, level this and that to simply scrap it. Although I'm willing to bet a lot of the older players would come back if you were to remove heroes ( @babb1e is one of the examples) the new, current player base would leave due to the server not being special for them. I did like on Sanctum the feeling of developing a town/city/capital/kingdom, but that is a memory of the past and I think it won't ever come back.

I do agree with you that heroes just turns your first weeks of herocraft into a grindfest, but once you master a class and get better with heroes it is quite fun. I only wish we could have animations for the skills . @Kainzo has turned minecraft into something no one thought could be done, an MMO with a decent player base. Yes, I do think that heroes is boring at sometimes and wish it was vanilla pvp, but vanilla pvp gets boring a LOT faster than heroes.

EDIT: When I first saw the idea for heroes, it was a very simple, yet AWESOME idea. The idea of a class with ONE ability and were limited in armor/weapons. (Ex: Ranger could use stone sword, wear chain-mail, and have ONE ability - Track). I loved that idea of all the SIMPLE classes that would add some dynamic effects to pvp and how you went about combat. The heroes that now is here, is sadly no longer minecraft, but an MMO. For better, or worse I can not yet tell.

Good day sir, - Rane

 

[HolyRane]

I actually think this is an entirely horrid idea. Herocraft is fun because you choose a spec, level it, derp, derp. Balancing happens on every MMORPG-PVP game. I would probably quit this server if it got changed to this. Blech.

You represent the new player base, and wouldn't understand/care about the old herocraft, you rather prove my point .

 

[itzmak]

This would make Herocraft fun for me again. Big ups Weynard.

 

[greyp]

I can speak for everyone at the Diner, we would all play again if this would happen.

 

[HolyRane]

I can speak for everyone at the Diner, we would all play again if this would happen.

Awww yeah, its g-rape

 

[weynard]

I do agree that there has been much work put inside Heroes (so much, probably, that I can't fully appreciate it), but I'm not talking of removing it completely. Having professions and learning skills through finding them is where we'd end up using the plugin. What I'm saying mostly is that the WOW approach makes Minecraft PVP far too complicated. It forces a game that's supposed to be a sandbox into the popular but ever so overworked phenomenon of fantasy MMORPGs. I don't see how for example we'd get 'less hardcore' by removing many of the skills. If you get taken by surprise, you're still dead, with or without combat skills.

Then again, I wouldn't want to exclude newer members of the community from the discussion. It'd be a sad thing for them to leave, so a couple more statements from that department would be nice before we try and work on a solution.

That said, this is of course hypothetical for now. I don't want to give this the wrong spin.

 

[HolyRane]

I do agree that there has been much work put inside Heroes (so much, probably, that I can't fully appreciate it), but I'm not talking of removing it completely. Having professions and learning skills through finding them is where we'd end up using the plugin. What I'm saying mostly is that the WOW approach makes Minecraft PVP far too complicated. It forces a game that's supposed to be a sandbox into the popular but ever so overworked phenomenon of fantasy MMORPGs. I don't see how for example we'd get 'less hardcore' by removing many of the skills. If you get taken by surprise, you're still dead, with or without combat skills.

Then again, I wouldn't want to exclude newer members of the community from the discussion. It'd be a sad thing for them to leave, so a couple more statements from that department would be nice before we try and work on a solution.

That said, this is of course hypothetical for now. I don't want to give this the wrong spin.

I liked the old system, you complete dungeons, you get skills. Instead of shitty skills, you get GOOD skills, ex: hellgate. BUT i also think you should be able to get like a few of the "pvp" skills, such as (just maybe) bandage.

 

[weynard]

I liked the old system, you complete dungeons, you get skills. Instead of shitty skills, you get GOOD skills, ex: hellgate. BUT i also think you should be able to get like a few of the "pvp" skills, such as (just maybe) bandage.

Bandage as the only healing skill COULD be okay (with regards to PVE), but nobody should have actual PVP skills others don't have, like debuffs, buffs, damaging, DOT, root, etc.

 

[HolyRane]

Bandage as the only healing skill COULD be okay (with regards to PVE), but nobody should have actual PVP skills others don't have, like debuffs, buffs, damaging, DOT, root, etc.

Yeah, not to argue, but I like root haha. I'm sure we could work something out if this happened.

 

[Kainzo]

We have no intention to remove Heroes from the primary server for Herocraft. Is it possible we could have a side server with old school rules? yes. Will it ever be in the spotlight as the primary? no, probably not.

 

[itzmak]

With these new update to Heroes, PvP is not the same. All PvP is is who has the better class. It takes no skill to PvP anymore. I know the server is not all about PvP but most of the avid PvPers are leaving leading Herocraft to creative. I love the community on here I just think Heroes is advancing too much for its own good.

 

[Kainzo]

I stated what was happening and what will happen - you can either listen or continue to live in a fantasy world.

 

[HolyRane]

I honestly believe @itzmak has a valid point, a rogue will just about ALWAYS beat a caster, therefore it takes the skill of the pvp'r, and places the "skill" to the class you choose. It's all about match ups now. Which is why I have taken up hunting the newer players.

 

[Dielan9999]

Its going against what Kain wants... seems more like a "I stopped playing so you need to work this for me" thread... Although to humor you, I think the old Sanctum way of doing things would be cool, but hardly any of the player base any more even have a clue what Sanctum is.

I think Vic puts it into words pretty good here. I love Sanctum just as much as the other Sanctum-era players, but the direction Herocraft is going cannot be reversed. The changes aren't for everyone, that's why we have complaints. However its also not like we are the only server running heroes, most other servers with heroes (likely due to a lack of understanding of the plugin) have very simple heroes configurations.


@weynard maybe you could make your own server with a simple heroes configuration? I strongly doubt any changes proposed in your original post will be implemented, or anything close to it.


edit: Just because we aren't going back, doesn't mean it won't get better. This is why we have balance updates.

 

[Kainzo]

I would love to stamp the Herocraft seal of approval to a server that has the Sanctum rules. Let's look at this way - I am already spread very thin and I cannot be in three places at once, here's my schedule:

Kain's Wonky Schedule:

• 8-5PM job - (This pays the bills and gets me a place to sleep)
• Herocraft 9am - 12am (This allows me to have cuddles and creative stuff)
• Herocraft Dev 10-3pm (This is the new project we are starting and currently is in planning)
• Apherdite 6pm - 12am (When do I have time for her?!)
• Social activities - ???? (never?)
• Family stuff - holidays

My thoughts on Sanctum and previous maps.

1. Administrative overhead was massive - everything was done by hand, there were no automated anything, later on it got easier
2. The "past" is always gold covered and the present is always bronze - its the way of the world. Things will always be best in hindsight.
3. Griefing was rampart, stealing was rampart (and illegal - we banned 100's of players for stealing in sanctum/other areas) e

Herocraft RPG | Herocraft PVP | Herocraft Creative
The current goal of Herocraft is to be a full encompassing MMORPG to replace all other servers and games into one wholesome activity that you never log from and eventually keel over from a joy-gasm. I'd love to have more staff step up and want to lead servers - we have the hardware - I just don't want to cannibalize ourselves.

 

[HolyRane]

I would love to stamp the Herocraft seal of approval to a server that has the Sanctum rules. Let's look at this way - I am already spread very thin and I cannot be in three places at once, here's my schedule:

Kain's Wonky Schedule:

• 8-5PM job - (This pays the bills and gets me a place to sleep)
• Herocraft 9am - 12am (This allows me to have cuddles and creative stuff)
• Herocraft Dev 10-3pm (This is the new project we are starting and currently is in planning)
• Apherdite 6pm - 12am (When do I have time for her?!)
• Social activities - ???? (never?)
• Family stuff - holidays

My thoughts on Sanctum and previous maps.

1. Administrative overhead was massive - everything was done by hand, there were no automated anything, later on it got easier
2. The "past" is always gold covered and the present is always bronze - its the way of the world. Things will always be best in hindsight.
3. Griefing was rampart, stealing was rampart (and illegal - we banned 100's of players for stealing in sanctum/other areas) e

Herocraft RPG | Herocraft PVP | Herocraft Creative

The current goal of Herocraft is to be a full encompassing MMORPG to replace all other servers and games into one wholesome activity that you never log from and eventually keel over from a joy-gasm. I'd love to have more staff step up and want to lead servers - we have the hardware - I just don't want to cannibalize ourselves.

Here is the thing, I liked the TOWN feel of sanctum. You did just about everything FOR YOUR TOWN not for yourself