Herocraft - The Change Brought By Time

[TrinityDown]

[size=large]I am still making Final Revisions to the Growth and Suggestions section. They will be posted up later.[/size]

Before I begin, for all of you that do not know me, I'm TrinityDown, an old standing member of the community, an ex-proctor, and a 3 time mayor (Over a course 3 maps). I am one of the most biased people on the server when it comes to things involving the server itself, not towns, and will probably always be so expect to see that as I make this topic. I love this server so do not misinterpret this as hate.

[size=x-large]Herocraft - The Change Brought By Time[/size]

[size=small]In this topic I will be addressing the good, and the bad, changes that I've seen on Herocraft. I played since the first week of the server, so I've seen most of it's growth and would like to address it before tomorrow's meeting. I will address these in this order:
Problems
Growth
Suggestions[/size]

[size=large]Table of Contents[/size]

Use "Ctrl/Apple/Command + F" To quickly browse topics using the codes provided

[size=medium]Problems [P00][/size]

• [P01] The Community
• [P02] PvP (General)
• [P03] PvP (FFA // TownVSTown)
• [P04] Townships
• [P05] Townships (Kingdoms)
• [P06] Staff (Favoritism & Impact)
• [P07] Plug-Ins / Modifications

[size=medium]Growth [G00][/size]

• [G01] The Community
• [G02] PvP
• [G03] Donations
• [G04] Townships
• [G05] Staff
• [G06] The Server
• [G07] Plug-Ins / Modifications
• [G08] Size

[size=medium]Suggestions [S00][/size]

• [S01] Townships
• [S02] Staff
• [S03] PvP

[size=large]Problems [P00][/size]

[size=medium]The Community [P01][/size]

As all Minecraft Servers are, Herocraft is mainly based on it's community, and by far we have grown immensely . However, this has attracted people of all types, and not all have meshed well with the community. But beyond this, a rift in the community has formed. This is mainly, Everyone vs Evil. Of course, in this community, we want evil, but we do not want to make people have a hateful, and a rather un-enjoyable experience. Due to this rift, many longstanding members and community leaders have left the server. New members have been dragged into this ill-natured environment, or in may general have had a bad first experience with the server and have left almost immediately.

I feel that too much hate is brewing. it has become almost unbearable for many of us, and it is common belief that something needs to be done about it; by either the players, or the Staff.

[size=medium]PvP (General) [P02][/size]

Since the beginning, Kain has said there will be PvP, and many of us members of Herocraft knew that PvP was coming. However it did not affect us as much, till people began to abuse it (ex: Camping towns). Now this is a HARDCORE server, so I believe that PvP should be allowed, but some people do not want to PvP, and as this server has so many different people, they should not always need to be afraid to go out for a minute and get killed. People are afraid to even go to other towns, it's kind of stupid. On the other hand, PvP is fun, and people want to do it, but are unsure because rules are just not currently clearly defined? Is it worth it?

Things need to be clearly set in stone and fair to EVERYONE regarding this topic.

[size=medium]PvP (FFA // TownVSTown) [P03][/size]

On this topic, things are honestly just plain and simple. FFA (Free For All) is chaos. And town vs town wars are in my words, "wuzzat?". There is no point. A goal is needed and things need to be put straight. A Capture the Flag or a Battlefield is necessary. And there needs to be REAL losses. Once someone hits kingdom, they have all the money in the world. Make them lose one level of their rings on their capital. Making them lose their kingdom rights till they re-pay capital again. Losses, AND gains, are necessary. I mean, really?

[size=medium]Townships [P04][/size]

We are starting to have the same problem on this map, as we had on the previous map. Too many towns, they are running rampant. SURE! I want to start a town! Let's get 10 people who just join in 1-2 days and mine for one day! Yay! I'm a Town!. I mean, seriously? It's just THAT easy. 1500 coins is NOT a big deal. It really isn't. Many and signatures aren't enough to warrant starting a town in my opinion. You really need to add a new element to things to really challenge players.

[size=medium]Townships (Kingdoms) [P05][/size]

I've taken the time to speak to quite a few people over Teamspeak and In-Game to see, that many people have a dislike to the current kingdom system. I personally believe that this system, has been a source of much of the hate on the server. It's forced people to ally, and of course, allies, mean enemies. Enemies are wanted, but you don't want to introduce hate this way. You want to encourage interaction, but also rivalries and a balance needs to be found. I think a balance needs to be found, and kingdoms are just not this balance.

[size=medium]Staff (Favoritism & Impact) [P06][/size]

Right now, people are beginning to resent staff members for being part of towns, or helping out with towns. It's kind of, I would say, unfair to the staff and players. When a mod is a citizen of a town, or an admin hangs out with certain people, it shows favoritism, and people will use that as blame when decisions are made. I also believe that staff do not have the time to manage everything and mods are kind of almost useless. They help A LOT, but NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

[size=medium]Plug-Ins / Modifications [P07][/size]

I don't 100% know what's going on with this, but from what I can see, much of what we use, is not available. It's become kind of broken constantly. We need to do something about this, even though I know Kain is working his ass off with this.

 

[Ilsyde]

Good read so far. Couldn't find anything where I'd disagree with your opinion.

 

[Xanipher]

A lot of very good opinions. From the perspective of my set of towns and my community, we have very different wants and needs from say MoB.

I agree there are too many towns, many people just join a town and stay for a little bit then go 'oh I'm going to leave and make my own now!'. The point is that herocraft is not infinitely expandable, we can't have thousands of users on. Because of this, towns that already exist are thinning out, losing members and becoming dead. What we need to do is foster what we have already and create well populated and integrated communities within our currently defined cities, towns and kingdoms. What good is a massively spread out area with a few buildings here and there? Urban sprawl is a problem. Let's create beautiful cities with a dense population.

Let's be honest, half the people who set out to make a town fail, they build half of it maybe, then abandon it to become ugly ruins. There does need to be an additional factor when considering the founding of the town and it needs to lean towards ambition and drive to do it correctly. There needs to be a purpose. MoB is about economy and control, Newerth is about creativity, architecture, community and peace etc. These are the things we need. Not some random town that was built 'because we wanted to'. There needs to be a committee of sorts, not, here's the money and 10 suckers, here you go there's your ring.

I'll add more things as I think of them.

EDIT 1: PVP - Balance is key. From my kingdom's perspective, we just want a safe space to build and have fun and foster our community. PVP outside of our rings is fine, but don't fuck with our creations and our time. This community is huge but most are split into two factions as Trin has mentioned. I agree with a battleground type scenario while maintaining pvp outside of rings. We can build a large BG area and towns can apply for a slot to battle, each town donates to a pot then an additional amount is put in by kain or whatever, winner takes the whole pot. How we can gauge who wins, we can have a battle master to oversee things. Count kills, last man standing. I have no idea if this would work, I'm not pvp oriented, but I think it could be fun. World events are always fun.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

I've recieved alot of hate for simply living near MoB and chatting with them in their chat channels. I'm a person, I'm allowed to like people, and I'm allowed to talk/interact with them.lol I supported Trinity when this current map started in the founding and formation of Fiore and all the towns of KoE, I even had my own town (Talus, which fell through, too inactive.) that was joining KoE. This was when I was just a Moderator, and no one really had a problem with it. But when I go join the opposing side, suddenly I'm apparently less than nothing and people start to be incredibly rude to me.

Once KoE lost the people I joined it for, I left as well. Around this time, I had started chatting with the people who would end up founding MoB. They were all very nice (when you weren't on the wrong end of their swords) and I liked the conflict they brought to the server, it kept things interesting, and alot of the people I had joined KoE for were actually in the organization. Neverending peace was turning people inactive and complacent, and was hurting everyone as a whole in my personal opinion.

Now, I never, EVER, contributed to the 'evil' (my role helping MoB has been as an advisor, making sure they stay in the rules, warning them when they appear to be skirting the lines too closely, or crossing those lines on occassion. All in all, they are great people, and they bring valuable play to our server, but the role of 'evil' is incredibly hard to stay within the rules as they stand now, and so they recieve alot of hatred, both justified, and unjustified), but I do support it and defend it, and no amount of nerd-rage will change my mind. We need conflict, and I 100% agree that we need to 100% define the rules and parameters, and we need REAL objectives, and not just randomized acts of PKing.

 

[Doreagarde]

I've tried since the beginning of the new map to be as neutral toward all towns as possible, because that's how I like to play, and it's worked quite well. I can tell, though, that sometimes an affiliation is "expected" from the other players. I'd like to stay an impartial observer. 'S how I roll.

I also agree that mods don't do enough. There are times that I have logged in for multiple consecutive hours and have been utterly useless as a mod. Sure, I intervene now and then and help a few people, but the majority of things that players need help with are out of the hands of mods. I understand completely the philosophy of mods being players and staff simultaneously (they were compared to Hercules once by a player in TS, half-mortal, half-divine), and I also want to emphasize that I am proud of the work that I have been able to do as a mod. Making someone's HeroCraft experience more fluid and enjoyable is more valuable to me than all the virtual gold on the server. If the admins ever feel, however, that the mods should be given more power to help, then they will find this one a willing vessel for their power.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

well, before proctors, mods were the whitelisters and griefer banners. now you've only really got griefer banners in your resume, and there's not alot of that now. Alot of my job when I was a Mod was getting on the whitelist several times a day, and tracking/catching griefers and getting rid of them, as well as banning disrespectful punks. We have very few of those now in comparison to last map.

 

[McGreed]

I tried as well staying neutral, by not joining any towns and get an automatic target painted on me from the other side, but it seem impossible these days and I have taken a stand against random PKing as I don't believe it adds to an positive gaming experience.

The server is advertised as PvP/Hardcore, not as Hardcore PvP. The server has gotten changed in other ways to make it more hardcore like removing warps/easy teleports, introducing skills, mob attacks and more. Nothing to do with PvP, but still make life more hard and interesting.

EDIT: I just checked the MC thread for HC and it does now have a "Hardcore PvP" section, I was going from the old thread title. But this line from there: "Don't want to partake in PvP? Join a town that is neutral or allied with others!" still make it valid, since its not possible to be neutral.

The problem I see with PvP is that some people believe that for them to have a good PvP experience, they need to be able to not only PvP with other people who do PvP, but also against those who don't, which doesn't make sense in my opinion. You would think that if you want a good PvP experience, you would do it against people who actually fight back, instead of just randomly killing 'civilians', and feel that you take something away from them when they cant do this.

All games that has PvP has some rules, and I guess that's what we are missing. Like teamkilling in a game, that not acceptable for those who plays, and why should it, just because the one who do it enjoy making peoples miserable. We can have PvP areas, and safe areas, the whole world doesn't have to be either one or the other.

And yes, the server is changing, and breaking down so we have to make new changes, which again comes with new problems. Its just something we need to figure out as we go and try and fix it without alienate a lot of people. We already seen some old people leave because of certain changes, that a real shame.

Regarding towns, I must admit that it does seem to easy to make one, and the problem is that people come in, get some newbies together and make the town and then half of them leave again, never to be seen from. Should be harder to get accepted for a town, I think.

 

[Capn_Danger]

[size=medium]The Community [P01][/size]

Not naming any names, but some people have taken things too far and used "role-playing" to justify being a jerk. Very few people on this server want do any RPing, so when you're being antagonistic in game chat you're just being a weiner. Now, most people from MOB are great, but there are just a few who need an attitude adjustment, and not only from MOB but other kingdoms/ towns as well. We all need to show basic respect for other players, probably most of all while engaging in PVP.

The server needs antagonists, though, so I support the idea of an "evil" kingdom on that principle.

[size=medium]PvP (General) [P02][/size]

I think the PVP issue will improve when people can pick the Diplomat class and turn PVP off for themselves.

Also, new players need to be clearly informed of the PVP situation when they join, I've killed new players who joined MOB straight out of the gates and they were shocked that I killed them and took their stuff. Getting PVP'd should not be a nasty surprise to a new player.

[size=medium]PvP (FFA // TownVSTown) [P03][/size]

I don't even know what Town VS Town means, there's no system or rules set up for it. It's just FFA where you've officially declared you're going to always fight, there needs to be some risk and reward for going to war.

[size=medium]Townships [P04][/size]

The best towns are those with a goal or vision, I think township applications should state a vision or direction for the town, and the ring would not be granted until the town concept or plan was sufficiently developed.

[size=medium]Townships (Kingdoms) [P05][/size]

I really like Kingdoms, but I think the problem here is the same as Town VS Town. If we want to go to war, thats awesome and interesting, but how the hell do you actually wage war and resolve it? Whoever gets tired of getting ganked in the woods first ends up surrendering? I REALLY want organized battles, either attacking a city/ capital or meeting in the wilderness or an arena somewhere. Perhaps the winner receives a percentage of the losing Kingdom's coin, or what not.

[size=medium]Staff (Favoritism & Impact) [P06][/size]

I don't think you can expect mods/admins to not play the game, we're all here because we like minecraft. Staff already has lots of extra responsibilities, it isn't fair to them to take away their game privileges. I would never volunteer to be a mod/admin if that were the case, and its not like they get paid for the work they do, either.

Still, mods & admins shouldn't be using their extra powers to favor their own towns, if that is actually happening.

[size=medium]Plug-Ins / Modifications [P07][/size]

The plugins are going to take a while, we just have to be patient. With 1.2 everyone had to start from scratch, we're not going to get back there overnight.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

Capn, that doesn't happen (that I'm aware of). I'm an admin and i still go mine things I need when I'm helping a town. I only spawn items when it's 100% a personal or staff project. When it has any benefit to a town/whatever, it's all legit materials.

 

[Capn_Danger]

Yeah, I didn't think there was any of that going on.

I've got an idea. I think we should have a PVP team, like the coding and spell team. Get a group of people together to design and implement a structured PVP system. We should have people from each "faction" on the server to make sure it's balanced.

I've got lots of solid ideas, I believe, I would volunteer to help work on PVP if Kain wants to throw an official team together.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

I'd like to see (don't stone me!) battlegrounds with some sort of objective. I would LOVE to have a PvP team that works like the Spell Team, go out and find an area and craft it into a PvP battleground.

I'd so re-make Warsong gulch.lol

 

[Kainzo]

First off.

We want to appeal to PVE / PVP and Social players. The sole reason we brought pvp -everywhere- was because mobs were beyond useful - they arent dangerous and if you die by one you more than likely are afk somewhere.

Secondly, our goal is to have one "BIG" map where its PVP FFA - one "normal map" pvp in certain areas and HELL.

This will happen soon - i hope you know that.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

when that happens, I'll be a happy boy.

<-will make a town in hell. lol

 

[Ravebear]

I agree to most of what you have said Trinity and it is nice to know that I am not the only one who has qualms with these areas.

There is a lot of petty rivalry on the server and personally I find it very detracting from the game experience when off topic is being spammed with a lot epeen nonsense. Regrettably I find myself getting drawn into this too when it goes on and on. Specifically I find that the mayors of towns are generally the ones getting hostile in off topic, even though im sure I would get a long with them if I was a citizen of their town. The fighting for new citizens that goes on is getting quite ridiculous too. Sorry, this is just my honest opinion. I hope we start to give out temporary mute on mouthy players.

I don't see a problem with players "camping towns", especially at a time of war it seems only a natural course of action. You can stay inside your rings or go outside and have a small battle. Either way I see this as only a minor annoyance.

There are too many towns in proportion to active players and they are too easy to make. I agree there should be a quality control on it. Lets face it everybody at one point thinks "ooo i'd like to be creative and build a town". I have and you probably have.

I don't really see the point in kingdom territory because I haven't seen it used for much. If the kingdom falls apart you will end up with a mess too.

Staff - some are good, some aren't good

Just my humble opinion, hope I do not offend anyone !

 

[Pacatafox]

We should honestly have a town cap, or something. It just gets rediculous, with the majority of towns complelty inactive. Something needs to change.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

I agree that abandoned towns are running rampant. It was a problem last map too.

 

[bearcat99]

Here is an idea:

What if you charge the 1500c before someone starts to build a town? This way, it limits people creating bad towns and trying to get members and failing.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

Here is an idea:

What if you charge the 1500c before someone starts to build a town? This way, it limits people creating bad towns and trying to get members and failing.

I don't think that is the problem, as many failed towns paid for their rings up front and just started building, then the leader or multiple members went inactive so the town went inactive. I think in the form of quality control, instead of demanding (excessive) amounts of money or raising the member amount, there should be other stipulations to make a town.

For example:

1. Must have a road to the town (If applicable, exception = towns like Ultima)
2. Must have a herogate set up
3. Must have an established bank, as well as some form of housing system
4. Members must show activity for a week when the town begins, this would weed bad towns out early on.
5. Must have a named SIC who is active (Would stop Mayor drop out situations from causing so much chaos)

Certain stipulations would make towns have to have some basic structure, which makes it easier to succeed in the long run for a town.

 

[Ilsyde]

In defence of mods (in general because I'm sure that Trin and some others already know all this)

It's not that we can't be bothered to spend our time helping you or that we take great pleasure in by wasting both your and our time by talking about a certain problem for several minutes then ending the discussion by asking you to open a petition and leave you at square one - it's because we don't have the tools and means help you.
As an example, when/if I'm able to play in the mornings the only other online staff member is always Raetac (reason: he's and Aussie and I'm from the EU). I log in and BAM! A list of 20 or more petitions, some of them from the previous day or even before that time) and I know for a fact that 90% of them can only be sorted out by admins who won't be on for at least another 6-7 hours. I'm sure that mods from the US time zone are annoyed by this as well - even when the majority of staff is online, mods still prove to be useless.
This is causing grief, agitation and frustration for everyone: The players, because you think we don't give a shit about your problems (not true). Us mods, because we're trying our best to ignore petitions we can't deal with but are repeatedly asked to waste our time by chatting to you then not solving anything. And finally, admins - because we leave them with shitloads of petitions to go through.

I believe that some of these issues exist because most of you don't even know where mod abilites end and admin powers start. That would certainly explain why we are (or I am?) getting spammed, messaged and asked all the time for things we're simply unable to do for you. This has gone on long enough so here is a list:
- fixing Sanctum (creeper explosions etc.)
- reimbursing (items or coins)
- sorting out donor banks
- looking at logs
- making/adjusting town rings
- lighting a fireplace
- changing name tags
- adding abilities (for mayors etc.)
- deleting channels
- bank (though we have Bankers to do this)
- changing the color of your name
- deleting LWC
Probably forgot quite a few but these are the most common. Only admins can deal with any of those.
Please don't get angry at us if you happen to open a petition and none of us responds and you get ignored. It's because we can't help you.

 

[TrinityDown]

Insert really huge defensive and good argument

I spoke about this with Dago before, and I think that mods need to be able to do a bit more. But I know this is mainly up to Kain.