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Suggestion Few opinions on test server balance and attributes

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
I'm going to say here, now that I played around with it on test, a Cleric with emeralds can get a good amount of healing done.
I don't like the cooldowns, so I can't say as much, but more than a Druid, at least.
If that Cleric was just slapped into final I'd take it and be kinda happy.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
What if clerics had like a small speed debuff when wearing iron or diamond armor? or you could give melee classes a gap closer?
With my cleric build I never even used iron I used full chain and I liked it much better.
I still think that allocation returns need to be based on how much you have spent now on how much you have. It would be so much easier to balance. Just take away base agility to classes who shouldnt kite. Take away base endurance to classes that should not have a ton of armor. Currently base attributes affect very little except for the fact that you get a small boost in certain attributes but even if you want to be decent at those attributes you have to spend a ton of allocation points.
Example:
Currently you only need 31 attribute points to get to 11. Ninja's highest base attribute is Agility at 11. You are only saving 31 attribute points as a Ninja with base attributes. Any good Ninja would probably get it to 20+ anyways so they are only gaining like 3 attribute points in endurance...
Ninja's lowest base attribute is Wisdom at -5. It would only take 8 attribute points to get to 0 as a ninja(assuming a ninja wanted too).

TL;DR Base Attributes is a great balance tool and could fix many balance issues however in its current state Base attributes have little effect on the game.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
I'm going to say here, now that I played around with it on test, a Cleric with emeralds can get a good amount of healing done.
I don't like the cooldowns, so I can't say as much, but more than a Druid, at least.
If that Cleric was just slapped into final I'd take it and be kinda happy.
Well I think Clerics can get MORE than enough healing done. I can outlast any melee class. Wizard is a bit different but I can just outrun a wiz. Problem is Clerics can easily keep kiting so it certainly takes more than one person to kill 1 cleric. Which isnt really fair. I managed to get 300+ healing done with Divine Blessing...WHAT? Sure its on a high cd but thats crazy imagine 2 clerics in a party... Imagine 3!...

I think the idea of shorter CDs, less healing and less mana consumption is a smarter choice for Clerics. Longer Cds allow a cleric to do some dmg while hes waiting for his cds(which isnt good). Shorter cds mean that a cleric has to continually heal if he wants to get anything done.

I would just sacredword when I got to 7 hearts(which was rare) then when sacredword was on CD I could go to town on the guy. --> its off CD -->Kite--> Heal up-->Repeat
Turn full heal into half heal(and like 66%of half heal for clerics) and cut the cd by half and the mana consumption by half
Same with Sacredword.

I just think this would make Clerics do their job instead of dealing dmg.
 

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
But healing and poking is what makes it fun!
On a serious note, yeah, scaling heals makes the poking more skillful.
 

northeaster345

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Well I think Clerics can get MORE than enough healing done. I can outlast any melee class. Wizard is a bit different but I can just outrun a wiz. Problem is Clerics can easily keep kiting so it certainly takes more than one person to kill 1 cleric. Which isnt really fair. I managed to get 300+ healing done with Divine Blessing...WHAT? Sure its on a high cd but thats crazy imagine 2 clerics in a party... Imagine 3!...

I think the idea of shorter CDs, less healing and less mana consumption is a smarter choice for Clerics. Longer Cds allow a cleric to do some dmg while hes waiting for his cds(which isnt good). Shorter cds mean that a cleric has to continually heal if he wants to get anything done.

I would just sacredword when I got to 7 hearts(which was rare) then when sacredword was on CD I could go to town on the guy. --> its off CD -->Kite--> Heal up-->Repeat
Turn full heal into half heal(and like 66%of half heal for clerics) and cut the cd by half and the mana consumption by half
Same with Sacredword.

I just think this would make Clerics do their job instead of dealing dmg.

There are very few classes that can outrun a wizard, and cleric is not one of them. That being said, I often have trouble bursting down clerics and you'd definitely have to have use a replenish at least once (at least with old cleric)
 

macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
While you aren't wrong of my distaste for healers, your example situation is very off the mark. Basically, I do not wish for the major healing classes (Mystic / Cleric) to be able to kill other players in most situations. They are support classes, and should rely on supporting in order to win their fights. In a 2v2, where one side has a healer and one does not, I'm completely fine with the healer side winning in most cases (assuming he plays his cards right). It's a support class. If a support class does not provide significant aid to their team by supporting them, then what exactly would the point be?

The problem is, if their heals are large enough to provide ample support, they can simply kite in circles while dealing very minute amounts of damage, and then eventually win the fight. And not just one fight. Every fight. Most players that play the healing classes don't know how to PvP very well, but a few do, and the ones who do, are invincible. It's not an enjoyable experience to fight a good mystic / cleric, because you will get kited for 10 minutes until they eventually win. It's stupid, and it's not what I want out of the healing classes. I find them to present a very poor form of combat, and a very poor balance situation. But meh, /rant off


On your heal numbers statement, you are forgetting about the potency of mana regeneration. This a new mechanic to Herocraft, as previously, each class has had a static mana regeneration value. While no, I don't allow you to get obscene levels of healing with wisdom, but I do let the heals exceed the values that you currently see on live, assuming you have a very high wisdom value. In addition to this, the healers have near absurd levels of mana regeneration, allowing you, with minimal mana management, keep your group sustained for much longer durations. If anything, I have buffed the "kiting healer" strategy, as healers benefit majorly from wasting another player's time.


----
If this were a standard MMO, I'd have no issues, but it isn't, and so I do. Herocraft PvP functions very differently than most games, and it's too easy for a healer to counter every single class in the game if they have the ability to heal themselves excessively while also kiting any attackers. It's relatively bullshit. Now, I can offset this by increasing the self-heal reduction and then buffing heals, but then healer players will have the same statements of "I don't heal enough".

Regardless of how people rate the healing or 1v1 capabilities of these classes however, I would much prefer any one of the healers to be in my group over most other classes. Healers...are strong.
Healers=op because there is no longer vanilla health regen so u cannot regen in combat :mad: bring that shit back!

Healers are ridiculous because without them it is impossible to regen health during a fight. With vanilla hunger and health regen the fight would be longer. Each person could do more in a because they would no longer have to run away from a fight, wait 15 or 10 seconds (whatever the timer is nowadays) and then eat to start regening hp. With health regen they could just keep their hunger bar at full and make sure that they were regenerating more health than they were losing. It is annoying in a fight if you get bursted and you are pretty much useless for the rest of the fight because you could get one shot unless you run away and regen ur health. Combat would be more fluid and healers would become extremely useful instead of either useless because they don't heal a high % of someone's health or unbelievably powerful because they heal such a high % of the person's health.

On top of this, the return of vanilla hunger would make farmers and having more powerful food actually useful, because it would be annoying to eat 3 melons in the middle of a fight instead of 1 bread. It would help pve not be annoying as shit because people would not have to run away from all of the mobs and eat food in order to continue to level. Instead they would just have to make sure that they did not get bursted by the mobs and could continually level.

In general, the main reason healers are broken is because without them, in pve and pvp when a % of someone's hp is taken away, it is just flat out gone.
 
Last edited:

STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Healers=op because there is no longer vanilla health regen so u cannot regen in combat :mad: bring that shit back!

Healers are ridiculous because without them it is impossible to regen health during a fight. With vanilla hunger and health regen the fight would be longer. Each person could do more in a because they would no longer have to run away from a fight, wait 15 or 10 seconds (whatever the timer is nowadays) and then eat to start regening hp. With health regen they could just keep their hunger bar at full and make sure that they were regenerating more health than they were losing. It is annoying in a fight if you get bursted and you are pretty much useless for the rest of the fight because you could get one shot unless you run away and regen ur health. Combat would be more fluid and healers would become extremely useful instead of either useless because they don't heal a high % of someone's health or unbelievably powerful because they heal such a high % of the person's health.

On top of this, the return of vanilla hunger would make farmers and having more powerful food actually useful, because it would be annoying to eat 3 melons in the middle of a fight instead of 1 bread. It would help pve not be annoying as shit because people would not have to run away from all of the mobs and eat food in order to continue to level. Instead they would just have to make sure that they did not get bursted by the mobs and could continually level.

In general, the main reason healers are broken is because without them, in pve and pvp when a % of someone's hp is taken away, it is just flat out gone.

Let me go on record to say that the 'healing' spec loses it's magic with each and every new healing skill given to non-healer specs. Runeblade, Bard, Paladin, Berserker, Dreadknight, and Necromancer all have the ability to heal themselves in combat, even though they're not in the healer tree. Aside from Paladin, all of these classes have poor or reasonable heals, but they are heals all the same. What you're suggesting is a way for all classes to be able to regen their health in combat as long as their hunger (stamina) bar is above a certain threshold. This would effectively give EVERYONE the ability to heal in combat, further slapping Healers in the face.

If health regenerating in combat became a thing, it would only promote kiting for all classes. Wizards would entangle/blink until they've regenerated enough health to come back into the fight, Dragoons would Jump/Superjump, Berserkers would Toss and then Frenzy away to regen health, Bard will use their Accelerando to regen health, Ninjas would backflip and smoke into the distance, Rangers will use grappling hook onto some unreachable area to get some health back... Virtually every class will have a way to skip out of a fight all for the purpose of gaining more health back. That isn't fixing the 'healing problem', it is only making it worse.

While we're at it, let's talk about this alleged 'healing problem'. Maybe I'm biased because I've generally stuck to being a healer throughout playing on Herocraft, but I've never seen a problem with healing, or thought that Healing was too overpowered. Let it be known that I do distinguish Mystic/Cleric healing to being different to Disciple/Bloodmage healing. All 4 classes have AOE heals, but as far as 'Team support' goes, Cleric and Mystic fall in a different category than Disciple and Bloodmage. The former are designed to be team players, who will occasionally snuff out a kill or two in a team fight, while the latter are designed to kill, while giving somewhat useful aid to fellow team members. You will notice when a Cleric or a Mystic is in your party because your survivability is so much greater. You may not notice that a Disciple or a Bloodmage is in your party since the heals aren't as great, and are rather sporadic.

In a team vs. team setting, you'd be smart to focus the healer and want them dead as quickly as you can, since they are slowly but surely keeping an entire party alive. My vision is, and always has been, that I wanted a Herocraft where every class has it's benefit in a team fight. Sadly (pre-attributes, mind you) we haven't reached that point yet. It's still viable, and actually very effective, to have a party full of Warrior specs for example to maul an entire town. Is it ridiculous to think that 7 Dragoons and 3 Paladins in a party is probably a better option than having a diversity of classes in a party? I hope your answer is yes. I'd think that everyone would prefer to live in a Herocraft where having too many casters or too many warriors, or too many rogues, or too many healers in a party is disastrous.

What does this all mean? It means that healers have a place on Herocraft too, and they serve a purpose. The purpose being aiding their teammates not primarily through DPS, but rather (could you have guessed it?) H-E-A-L-I-N-G. The more healing non-healer specs get, the deeper the dagger in my heart. The only thing making me sleep at night is the reassurance that only Bards and Paladins are able to heal teammates.

-----------------------------------------------

Now, if we're talking about 1v1'ing a Healer, I'm going to go a different route. Before I get into that, I'm going to say that I've always snarled at people who say something along the lines of "well of course you lost to an (insert class name here) as an (insert class name here), they're not SUPPOSED to beat them." Some people have a complex definition of what 'balance' is. My definition of 'balance' is simple, and likely extremely difficult to achieve; when every class has an equal opportunity to beat any other class it runs into in a 1v1 setting. The reason this is difficult to achieve is because some classes are geared more toward being beneficial in team fights than they are in a 1v1 fight.

Where does this fit in with the '4 Healers'? All of them immediately have some usefulness is team fights since the AOE healing spells that heal themselves also heal party members. In exchange for this ability to heal themselves and party members alike, they SHOULD sacrifice some aspect of damage. A good rule of thumb is that the more effective you are at healing party members, the less damage you should be able to deal. In the case of Mystics and Clerics, who do a more superior job at healing party members, their damaging spells are very unimpressive.

- A Mystic's Bolt and Ire combo will deal 291 true damage (pre-attributes) and they are unable to do this again for another 30 seconds when Bolt is off CD. In the meantime, if it chooses to, it can hit it's foe with a golden hoe for 36HP or 43HP if Might is activated.

- A Cleric's only means of damaging spells is Smite, which deals 60 true damage on a 7 second cooldown. In the meantime, it is able to use it's golden hoe for 44HP.

In a 1v1 setting, the problem isn't that Mystic and Cleric have too strong of damaging abilities considering their high healing output. I'd say they're probably just right. The alleged problem is that they'll kite the snot out of you, since neither of these healing specs necessarily want to get into melee range with anyone. The alleged problem is that if you're not doing a good enough job damaging either one of these classes, then they'll be using less healing spells. Instead of being on the defensive, they'll become much more offensive. It's no secret that a Healer is rendered useless the second it runs out of mana. During the kiting stage, if you're not dealing enough damage to a healer YOU WILL DIE simply because a Healer will have a large mana pool if it's not using it to heal itself. A Cleric will not think twice about using Smite every 7 seconds if you're doing a poor job damaging him. He may even wack you a few times with his hoe for good measure. I've played every healer spec and I can't stress enough how important mana management is, especially if you're a Mystic or Cleric.

TL;DR In a 1v1 setting, as long as you keep pressing and keep a steady stream of damage to a Mystic or a Cleric, they will eventually run out of mana and you will win the fight.

Food for thought : If you're expecting to kill a class quickly designed to heal itself and party members, you'll be disappointed.

Have an A1 day.
 

Dakinara

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Let me go on record to say that the 'healing' spec loses it's magic with each and every new healing skill given to non-healer specs. Runeblade, Bard, Paladin, Berserker, Dreadknight, and Necromancer all have the ability to heal themselves in combat, even though they're not in the healer tree. Aside from Paladin, all of these classes have poor or reasonable heals, but they are heals all the same. What you're suggesting is a way for all classes to be able to regen their health in combat as long as their hunger (stamina) bar is above a certain threshold. This would effectively give EVERYONE the ability to heal in combat, further slapping Healers in the face.

If health regenerating in combat became a thing, it would only promote kiting for all classes. Wizards would entangle/blink until they've regenerated enough health to come back into the fight, Dragoons would Jump/Superjump, Berserkers would Toss and then Frenzy away to regen health, Bard will use their Accelerando to regen health, Ninjas would backflip and smoke into the distance, Rangers will use grappling hook onto some unreachable area to get some health back... Virtually every class will have a way to skip out of a fight all for the purpose of gaining more health back. That isn't fixing the 'healing problem', it is only making it worse.

While we're at it, let's talk about this alleged 'healing problem'. Maybe I'm biased because I've generally stuck to being a healer throughout playing on Herocraft, but I've never seen a problem with healing, or thought that Healing was too overpowered. Let it be known that I do distinguish Mystic/Cleric healing to being different to Disciple/Bloodmage healing. All 4 classes have AOE heals, but as far as 'Team support' goes, Cleric and Mystic fall in a different category than Disciple and Bloodmage. The former are designed to be team players, who will occasionally snuff out a kill or two in a team fight, while the latter are designed to kill, while giving somewhat useful aid to fellow team members. You will notice when a Cleric or a Mystic is in your party because your survivability is so much greater. You may not notice that a Disciple or a Bloodmage is in your party since the heals aren't as great, and are rather sporadic.

In a team vs. team setting, you'd be smart to focus the healer and want them dead as quickly as you can, since they are slowly but surely keeping an entire party alive. My vision is, and always has been, that I wanted a Herocraft where every class has it's benefit in a team fight. Sadly (pre-attributes, mind you) we haven't reached that point yet. It's still viable, and actually very effective, to have a party full of Warrior specs for example to maul an entire town. Is it ridiculous to think that 7 Dragoons and 3 Paladins in a party is probably a better option than having a diversity of classes in a party? I hope your answer is yes. I'd think that everyone would prefer to live in a Herocraft where having too many casters or too many warriors, or too many rogues, or too many healers in a party is disastrous.

What does this all mean? It means that healers have a place on Herocraft too, and they serve a purpose. The purpose being aiding their teammates not primarily through DPS, but rather (could you have guessed it?) H-E-A-L-I-N-G. The more healing non-healer specs get, the deeper the dagger in my heart. The only thing making me sleep at night is the reassurance that only Bards and Paladins are able to heal teammates.

-----------------------------------------------

Now, if we're talking about 1v1'ing a Healer, I'm going to go a different route. Before I get into that, I'm going to say that I've always snarled at people who say something along the lines of "well of course you lost to an (insert class name here) as an (insert class name here), they're not SUPPOSED to beat them." Some people have a complex definition of what 'balance' is. My definition of 'balance' is simple, and likely extremely difficult to achieve; when every class has an equal opportunity to beat any other class it runs into in a 1v1 setting. The reason this is difficult to achieve is because some classes are geared more toward being beneficial in team fights than they are in a 1v1 fight.

Where does this fit in with the '4 Healers'? All of them immediately have some usefulness is team fights since the AOE healing spells that heal themselves also heal party members. In exchange for this ability to heal themselves and party members alike, they SHOULD sacrifice some aspect of damage. A good rule of thumb is that the more effective you are at healing party members, the less damage you should be able to deal. In the case of Mystics and Clerics, who do a more superior job at healing party members, their damaging spells are very unimpressive.

- A Mystic's Bolt and Ire combo will deal 291 true damage (pre-attributes) and they are unable to do this again for another 30 seconds when Bolt is off CD. In the meantime, if it chooses to, it can hit it's foe with a golden hoe for 36HP or 43HP if Might is activated.

- A Cleric's only means of damaging spells is Smite, which deals 60 true damage on a 7 second cooldown. In the meantime, it is able to use it's golden hoe for 44HP.

In a 1v1 setting, the problem isn't that Mystic and Cleric have too strong of damaging abilities considering their high healing output. I'd say they're probably just right. The alleged problem is that they'll kite the snot out of you, since neither of these healing specs necessarily want to get into melee range with anyone. The alleged problem is that if you're not doing a good enough job damaging either one of these classes, then they'll be using less healing spells. Instead of being on the defensive, they'll become much more offensive. It's no secret that a Healer is rendered useless the second it runs out of mana. During the kiting stage, if you're not dealing enough damage to a healer YOU WILL DIE simply because a Healer will have a large mana pool if it's not using it to heal itself. A Cleric will not think twice about using Smite every 7 seconds if you're doing a poor job damaging him. He may even wack you a few times with his hoe for good measure. I've played every healer spec and I can't stress enough how important mana management is, especially if you're a Mystic or Cleric.

TL;DR In a 1v1 setting, as long as you keep pressing and keep a steady stream of damage to a Mystic or a Cleric, they will eventually run out of mana and you will win the fight.

Food for thought : If you're expecting to kill a class quickly designed to heal itself and party members, you'll be disappointed.

Have an A1 day.

I agree with this in general. If anything is a problem, it is that kiting and kiting while healing is too easy sometimes (especially against certain classes with no cc), giving healers time to regen lots of mana in 1v1 fights, not that healing is too strong on its own. This is compounded by damaging attacks generally knocking enemies away from you, giving tthe kiter a further advantage. I have no great solution, other than thinking maybe there should be a few more snare / root or jump / charge mechanics in game to help close gaps. However, these should be short duration, and idealy have to be aimed (like icebolt or other projectile - my idea was for a "toss bola" type ability that would cost stam and root target for 2 seconds (break on dmg), 10 second cooldown. Please no wow warrior snares "i hit the hamstring button now hamstring you forever now we both go slow foreverrrr blahhhhhhh" crap. :eek:

Also, please mighty zo's who purview these threads, give all healers a target-other-ally only short cooldown low healing amount heal. I hate macroing everyones names into heal commands and would love to manually target somehow. Love u forever. Amen.
 
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macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
Let me go on record to say that the 'healing' spec loses it's magic with each and every new healing skill given to non-healer specs. Runeblade, Bard, Paladin, Berserker, Dreadknight, and Necromancer all have the ability to heal themselves in combat, even though they're not in the healer tree. Aside from Paladin, all of these classes have poor or reasonable heals, but they are heals all the same. What you're suggesting is a way for all classes to be able to regen their health in combat as long as their hunger (stamina) bar is above a certain threshold. This would effectively give EVERYONE the ability to heal in combat, further slapping Healers in the face.

If health regenerating in combat became a thing, it would only promote kiting for all classes. Wizards would entangle/blink until they've regenerated enough health to come back into the fight, Dragoons would Jump/Superjump, Berserkers would Toss and then Frenzy away to regen health, Bard will use their Accelerando to regen health, Ninjas would backflip and smoke into the distance, Rangers will use grappling hook onto some unreachable area to get some health back... Virtually every class will have a way to skip out of a fight all for the purpose of gaining more health back. That isn't fixing the 'healing problem', it is only making it worse.

While we're at it, let's talk about this alleged 'healing problem'. Maybe I'm biased because I've generally stuck to being a healer throughout playing on Herocraft, but I've never seen a problem with healing, or thought that Healing was too overpowered. Let it be known that I do distinguish Mystic/Cleric healing to being different to Disciple/Bloodmage healing. All 4 classes have AOE heals, but as far as 'Team support' goes, Cleric and Mystic fall in a different category than Disciple and Bloodmage. The former are designed to be team players, who will occasionally snuff out a kill or two in a team fight, while the latter are designed to kill, while giving somewhat useful aid to fellow team members. You will notice when a Cleric or a Mystic is in your party because your survivability is so much greater. You may not notice that a Disciple or a Bloodmage is in your party since the heals aren't as great, and are rather sporadic.

In a team vs. team setting, you'd be smart to focus the healer and want them dead as quickly as you can, since they are slowly but surely keeping an entire party alive. My vision is, and always has been, that I wanted a Herocraft where every class has it's benefit in a team fight. Sadly (pre-attributes, mind you) we haven't reached that point yet. It's still viable, and actually very effective, to have a party full of Warrior specs for example to maul an entire town. Is it ridiculous to think that 7 Dragoons and 3 Paladins in a party is probably a better option than having a diversity of classes in a party? I hope your answer is yes. I'd think that everyone would prefer to live in a Herocraft where having too many casters or too many warriors, or too many rogues, or too many healers in a party is disastrous.

What does this all mean? It means that healers have a place on Herocraft too, and they serve a purpose. The purpose being aiding their teammates not primarily through DPS, but rather (could you have guessed it?) H-E-A-L-I-N-G. The more healing non-healer specs get, the deeper the dagger in my heart. The only thing making me sleep at night is the reassurance that only Bards and Paladins are able to heal teammates.

-----------------------------------------------

Now, if we're talking about 1v1'ing a Healer, I'm going to go a different route. Before I get into that, I'm going to say that I've always snarled at people who say something along the lines of "well of course you lost to an (insert class name here) as an (insert class name here), they're not SUPPOSED to beat them." Some people have a complex definition of what 'balance' is. My definition of 'balance' is simple, and likely extremely difficult to achieve; when every class has an equal opportunity to beat any other class it runs into in a 1v1 setting. The reason this is difficult to achieve is because some classes are geared more toward being beneficial in team fights than they are in a 1v1 fight.

Where does this fit in with the '4 Healers'? All of them immediately have some usefulness is team fights since the AOE healing spells that heal themselves also heal party members. In exchange for this ability to heal themselves and party members alike, they SHOULD sacrifice some aspect of damage. A good rule of thumb is that the more effective you are at healing party members, the less damage you should be able to deal. In the case of Mystics and Clerics, who do a more superior job at healing party members, their damaging spells are very unimpressive.

- A Mystic's Bolt and Ire combo will deal 291 true damage (pre-attributes) and they are unable to do this again for another 30 seconds when Bolt is off CD. In the meantime, if it chooses to, it can hit it's foe with a golden hoe for 36HP or 43HP if Might is activated.

- A Cleric's only means of damaging spells is Smite, which deals 60 true damage on a 7 second cooldown. In the meantime, it is able to use it's golden hoe for 44HP.

In a 1v1 setting, the problem isn't that Mystic and Cleric have too strong of damaging abilities considering their high healing output. I'd say they're probably just right. The alleged problem is that they'll kite the snot out of you, since neither of these healing specs necessarily want to get into melee range with anyone. The alleged problem is that if you're not doing a good enough job damaging either one of these classes, then they'll be using less healing spells. Instead of being on the defensive, they'll become much more offensive. It's no secret that a Healer is rendered useless the second it runs out of mana. During the kiting stage, if you're not dealing enough damage to a healer YOU WILL DIE simply because a Healer will have a large mana pool if it's not using it to heal itself. A Cleric will not think twice about using Smite every 7 seconds if you're doing a poor job damaging him. He may even wack you a few times with his hoe for good measure. I've played every healer spec and I can't stress enough how important mana management is, especially if you're a Mystic or Cleric.

TL;DR In a 1v1 setting, as long as you keep pressing and keep a steady stream of damage to a Mystic or a Cleric, they will eventually run out of mana and you will win the fight.

Food for thought : If you're expecting to kill a class quickly designed to heal itself and party members, you'll be disappointed.

Have an A1 day.
It is true that people can kite in order to regen health but you forget that they are not the only ones regening health, both people are so kiting someone and slowly getting down their health with fireballs or some other spell will not work as well, because while the caster kites the other person regens their health. If health regen were put back healers would probably get a universal buff because they are no longer required to heal, so that they would suplement the healing, keeping their team alive but they would not be 100% necessary for there to be health gain during a fight.

When health regen was in damage was higher in general so that people could still be easily killed, so maybe a universal damage buff would be necessary.

Another point i would like to make is that this would also help fix that aoe problem. The aoe problem is that whatever team has more aoes almost always wins because they can do such a high amount of damage to the other team and without a healer this damage would be finite (aka when the health is lost, it is just gone). With health regen the damage that is spread out among the people that are hit by the aoe would be more quickly healed off by the health regen of the players so the effect is still very useful but not as detrimental to the other team. This point i am trying to make is hard to explain but i am going to do my best. In a team fights aoes almost always hit multiple people and without a healer or health regen the ridiculous possibility of 600+ damage being dealt is impossible is finite amount of health that is just gone. With health regen the damage would be able to be slowly healed off so a 200 damage aoe would only have the lasting effect of a 170 damage aoe after 3 seconds and only 140 after 6, so on and so forth. As a result of the damage being spread out between multiple people instead of the damage dealt being recovered by 30 every 3 seconds, it would be 90 every 3 seconds or more. Do not mistake this for a hatred of apes (i fucking love aoes) but i do think that they have become too essential to team fighting. This has made classes that focus more on single targeted skills to become significantly weaker in team fights than their aoe counterparts. This would allow for a more diverse teamfighting setup and a more diverse player base in respect to the classes that they choose. Not sure if i fully got my point across, but in general, with health regen.

Drawbacks:
1. Need to rebalance slightly to accommodate for the health regen.
2. Healers slightly less unique.
3. Need to carry more food.
(probably missing some)

Advantages:
1. Aoes not as essential in team fights.
2. More class diversity (debatable if you disagree that putting less emphasis on aoes in team fights would promote class diversity)
3. Farmers actually have to make food now.
4. Longer, more fluid team fights.
5. Pve would be more fluid because you wouldn't have to run away to heal.
6. Healers would no longer be the only source of health in a fight.
 

Dakinara

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
I would be totally fine with some form of health regen being introduced for all classes - but imo please dont base it on hunger (i hate hunger, might as well delete sprinting and jumping with how fast it drains your hunger). If everyone had health regen though, that would further amplify the need for every class to have some form of crowd control or gap closing ability in order to finish people off.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
The alleged problem is that if you're not doing a good enough job damaging either one of these classes, then they'll be using less healing spells. Instead of being on the defensive, they'll become much more offensive. It's no secret that a Healer is rendered useless the second it runs out of mana. During the kiting stage, if you're not dealing enough damage to a healer YOU WILL DIE simply because a Healer will have a large mana pool if it's not using it to heal itself.
I agree with most of your post, except for this part.

You're speaking from the perspective of the nerfed healer specs. Both mystic and cleric have received constant healing number reductions, patch after patch, until we are where we are today. Yes, it's somewhat possible to "burst through" or "outlast" a healers healing capabilities, but not all classes can do that. Even Wizard, one of the burstiest classes in the game, cannot ever beat a cleric. Why? Because their heals are so fucking retarded that it doesn't matter how much damage the wizard does--he will run out of mana before the cleric does. And that puny little smite and puny little hoe is all the damage he needs to defeat the squishiest class in the game.

And I'm placing that example out there because it is the easiest to see--not all classes can beat healers. The fact of the matter is, most casters run out of juice before the cleric does, and the silences of rogues go a helluva lot less far than warrior interrupts to. Now, I'm not fully up to date on what classes can/can't beat healers with attributes, so it's hard for me to say how much of this will still be true, but I can say one thing--with the increased mana regeneration from wisdom, the situation that a damage dealing class can "deal enough damage to a healer for him to run out of mana" is much less likely to happen now. If you can't focus multiple people on the healer at once, I doubt you will be able to break it down.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2013

Actually clerics don't really run out of mana unless they are stupid af...
If you are spamming fullheal, yeah your gonna run out of mana but if you using the super mana efficient Sacredtouch then its hard to run out of mana. As long as you can kite when your low on mana and stay above 3 hearts then a cleric won't die. So far I have only died to a cleric and when I started the fight low on mana. Every other time the person either gave up or I killed them...Melee classes CANNOT kill clerics especially ones that use stam. They can burn they're stam in an engagement, I can run away and heal up while they can't sprint. Then I just need to run back and engage them again. Repeat till they are dead.
 

Dakinara

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
again i think the main key to the survivability issue is "as long as you can kite when low on mana". If there were more gap closers and root / snare abilities i dont think this would that big of a deal. Bash and kick are both super useful for stopping a lot of heals once in melee range, biggest problem is once someone gets a few blocks ahead of you kiting, some classes have literally no way to catch back up. This is annoying for more than just healers - dunno how many times been chasing someone, they get just a little too far ahead and i know "whelp gotta let em go will never catch them now lol". Ironically, cleric is probably one of the worst hit by this, cleric cant really catch anyone that just wants to run away. I dunno how significant an effect agility will have on this with changes in runspeed, will see i guess.

Thats why a toss bola type ability would be a super cool skill for melee to have. It would take more skill to aim as a projectile, but you could theoretically hit someone thirty blocks away or more and catch back up.
 
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huntmoak

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
I thought that when a healer begins to cast a heal, it slows them right? And the whole regen problem, what if runestone could make a stone that when held, regens some like hp, or an alchemist or some healer class. And can't you just run from the cleric? If they are kiting you, you know you probably can't kill them, just leave them. It's like chasing a bard or goon, you know that if they want to get away, they probably can.
 
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