Suggestion Few opinions on test server balance and attributes

[Dakinara]

I love the new endurance system, you guys seemed to have created a good balance between giving certain classes a default weight bonus and yet letting everyone get more armor through endurance. Think this system works really well as is on test.

Charisma doesnt seem to increase the duration of most crowd control abilities very significantly. I think this could be increased a little bit to make the stat more desirable.

What is going to happen with bard? I hope it isnt left as is on test for the reset .

A lot of healer abilities got big cooldown increases. Maybe healing was op with the new damage system, dunno, but i think some of the single target heal cooldowns should be reduced slightly (sacred touch, sacredword, rejuvenation, regrowth, infusion mainly). also paladin heal absolution still has a relatively good cooldown compared to healers >>.

Some ability mana cost vs healing amount arent very good compared to others atm. Rejuv and regrowth for mystic are pretty crappy compared to soothe atm.

Berserker lunge (and maybe even toss) should probably be based off agility like movement skills for other classes.

Spell dmg seems strong atm, should get that constitution reducing spell dmg in ASAP i think.

 

[warriors4ever]

I agree with this, and though I don't have much overall knowledge of class mechanics and balance, I will be working on a detailed analysis and breakdown of some of the classes, in an attempt to help balance things.

 

[Dakinara]

i guess my biggest issue with the long cooldowns on single target heals is you cant use the right tool for the job, and frequently have to use group heals when only a single target heal is needed. I think the current mana cost / regen levels sufficiently limit how much healing a healer can put out, and the longer cooldowns are not really necessary for that reason. Last build on test, it was very easy to basically heal almost indefinately which was op for sure, but that is no longer the case with most of the new mana costs / regen rates.

And i guess I dont mind the longer cooldowns on paladin / bloodmage / disciple so much since they have a greater diversity of abilities that arent focused only on healing. But at least the cleric (and mystic imo) should have reduced single target heal cooldowns.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Delf hasn't made it a secret that he hates healers (especially the kiting kind). He doesn't want it to be the case that if a group of two people ran into another group of two in the wild, that the group with the healer will likely win due to survivability. While I understand the concern, my response is that its just the nature of the beast; Healers... Heal.

I was hoping there'd be a massive benefit into dumping my points into wisdom as a healer, which will tell the world I'm here to heal, and not kill. Sadly, throwing all your points into Wisdom (not like its practical) doesn't give a significant healing boost, which is a shame. Yes, it is noticeable, but it isn't game changing. I want to deal next to no damage and heal for days, why can't I be granted that?

 

[0xNaomi]

I'll have to hop on test sometime and see.
I liked attributes for the idea of being a battle cleric (ya know, with a mace to bash with kind of thing?) but if that's not allowed because they hate healers then I'll be

 

[Carbash]

Couldn't you just bump up intellect to get a ton of mana and mana regen? I think the idea of making longer cds is to make wisdom a more valuable stat. Wisdom allows for larger heals to make up for less heals overall. If the cooldowns were shorter everyone would want intellect so they can spam more of them. Perhaps wisdom needs to be tweeked a bit more to provide better heals considering that's all it really offers.

 

[northeaster345]

Couldn't you just bump up intellect to get a ton of mana and mana regen? I think the idea of making longer cds is to make wisdom a more valuable stat. Wisdom allows for larger heals to make up for less heals overall. If the cooldowns were shorter everyone would want intellect so they can spam more of them. Perhaps wisdom needs to be tweeked a bit more to provide better heals considering that's all it really offers.

Wisdom is mana regen if I remember correctly, Intellect only bumps up max mana pool

 

[Carbash]

Ah right you are north.

 

[Dakinara]

You can bump wisdom / intellect, but it is pretty dumb to try and raiser either stat much over 30 (+-) a few points due to the massive diminishing returns. Last test patch, spell mana costs were too low, regen was too high, and so healers could heal almost indefinately with good wisdom / int score. Now, mana costs were increased, mana regen was reduced, and cooldowns were doubled or more for several spells. I dont think the cooldown bump was necessary, the mana cost and regen changes made it where you couldnt just heal forever.

However, if the concern is healers are too good at keeping themselves alive, I would recommend leaving the high cooldowns, and giving each healer a new low healing (similar to soothe / sacred word), low cooldown (~2-3 seconds) spell that cannot self target and can only heal party members. I would LOVE a spell like that for a few reasons:

1) I hate having to macro everyones name into a single target heal to heal them effectively, so i typically just try and heal by manually targeting and cancel if a miss and start to self cast. I would be so happy to have a spell that cannot self target and would require manual targetting (no macro name) just like offensive spells work now.
2) by keeping higher cooldowns on self heals, healers would become more reliant on allies to protect them while still being able to effectively heal allies with a low cooldown, non-self target ability.
3) without the ability to macro in allies name, healers would have to have better battlefield awareness and keep an eye on where others are, and couldnt just run in a straight line away from enemies spamming heals off.
4) with the big heals on longer cooldowns, you would become vulnerable to rushdown when you have to use a big heal on an ally rather than save for yourself.

Im not saying to make all heals work this way, but if longer cooldowns are here to stay due to healer survivability, I would love to have an ally only heal to allow healers to continue, well, healing (others).

 

[Dakinara]

I'll have to hop on test sometime and see.
I liked attributes for the idea of being a battle cleric (ya know, with a mace to bash with kind of thing?) but if that's not allowed because they hate healers then I'll be

Melee battle cleric actually works very well with the changes, can raise your melee damage a bit higher than on live by raising strength. However your damage would still be neutered by protection armor without melee abilities (however protection armor is being modified to % based dmg reduction rather than flat number i think at some point?)

 

[Dakinara]

Bloodmage already has a heal that cant target self, so it would hopefully be easy to copy to other healers. cooldown should be low though >> (and reduce heal amount to compensate)

 

[Carbash]

I see what you are saying, perhaps trading amount healed with heal cooldown reduction (or all cooldowns for that matter) as the effect given from wisdom this could be resolved. If you think about it someone who has spent enough time doing something would require less time to do it. This way wisdom could be a valid option for all classes. Also I feel that charisma should be changed to luck, offering better drop rates as well as its current uses. Luck should make chances of failure be lessoned such as keeping enchants on armor (smiths) and the like. If its possible of course

 

[LightningCape]

Magic resistance on constitution needs to be lowered. The description says "slight" but at high lvls magic based skills do next to nothing especially on healers. Disciple being the prime example.

 

[Dakinara]

Magic resistance on constitution needs to be lowered. The description says "slight" but at high lvls magic based skills do next to nothing especially on healers. Disciple being the prime example.

definately, right now constitution is giving like 3% spell dmg reduction per point lol.
It is a relatively minor investment to get 20 consitution, which is like a 60% dmg reduction.

Would still be relatively strong at 1% dmg reduction per point + added hit points already granted by con

Also seems like armor is reducing melee dmg ability as well. . . guess this is why healing got nerfed so much hah.

Alot of numbers to balance with all these changes @_@

 

[Dakinara]

I think the spell / melee dmg reduction should be balanced against str / int dmg bonus as such -

Start with balanced dmg numbers in comparison to base hit points with no attributes. All bonus increases will be additive, not multiplicative.

Each point of str gives 2% dmg bonus to melee (60% dmg bonus at 30 str)
Each point of int gives 2% dmg bonus (60% dmg bonus at 30 int)
Each point of con gives 1% spell dmg reduction (30% dmg reduction at 30 con)
Each point of endurance gives the effect of 1.5% physical dmg reduction (45% dmg reduction at 30 endurance - higher dmg reduction than spell since melee also has left click dmg bonus).
Each point of wisdom gives x% healing - really depends on what the base healing numbers are at, but lets just say 2% bonus as well for now.

So - a 30 int wizzy attacks a 30 con warrior with a 100 base dmg fireball - damage dealt is 100(1.6)(0.7) = 112 dmg. Almost break even, but a little bonus to the wizzy since the warrior also got extra hp for that con.

A 30 str warrior attacks a 30 endurance warrior with a 100 base dmg ability - damage dealt is 100(1.6)(0.55) = 88 dmg. Almost break even, but melee dmg is reduced further by dmg reduction due to bonus of left click "auto attack" that melee can use in addition to abilities.

I am not saying these numbers will be perfectly balanced since alot of attributes have secondary benefits, but it seems like a good starting point.

Damage reduction will be stronger than damage bonus at extremely high attribute levels, but since you couldnt realistically have 30+ con and endurance, dmg reduction would have its limits as it would only effect one dmg type or the other (physical vs spell) for each point spent.

And still think the charisma bonus to crowd control duration should be increased.

Only complicating factor in this is how to handle left click melee weapon damage bonus. I would recommend classes start at a different baseline irregardless of str, and bonus click dmg be +1 dmg per str for every class.

Example - warrior / rogue base sword dmg = 40 + 30 str = 70 dmg per hit
Healer Base hoe dmg = 25 + 30 str = 55 dmg per hit (but remember no melee abilities so str bonus is part wasted)
Caster Base hoe dmg = 20 + 30 str = 50 dmg per hit.
Left click dmg would be subject to same dmg reduction as physical abilities (endurance based)

 

[ytiggidmas]

Delf hasn't made it a secret that he hates healers (especially the kiting kind). He doesn't want it to be the case that if a group of two people ran into another group of two in the wild, that the group with the healer will likely win due to survivability. While I understand the concern, my response is that its just the nature of the beast; Healers... Heal.

I was hoping there'd be a massive benefit into dumping my points into wisdom as a healer, which will tell the world I'm here to heal, and not kill. Sadly, throwing all your points into Wisdom (not like its practical) doesn't give a significant healing boost, which is a shame. Yes, it is noticeable, but it isn't game changing. I want to deal next to no damage and heal for days, why can't I be granted that?

maybe he just hates you

 

[malikdanab]

Attributes are great, but I agree they need some tweaks. I agree with @Dakinara on how attributes should be changed. Currently stats aren't based off anything base and with fraction gains which are confusing. Also, I feel like Diminishing Returns is a little too high. Currently using a specialized build isn't viable and balanced builds are the only way to go.

 

[malikdanab]

Double post...

 

[Dakinara]

Attributes are great, but I agree they need some tweaks. I agree with @Dakinara on how attributes should be changed. Currently stats aren't based off anything base and with fraction gains which are confusing. Also, I feel like Diminishing Returns is a little too high. Currently using a specialized build isn't viable and balanced builds are the only way to go.

I agree that diminishing returns, while necessary, escalate a little too fast at around +25-30 to an attribute. Raising an attribute above 30, and especially over 35, is usually a bad idea no matter how much you want to specialize due to the massive point investment required.

Almost all of my builds end up with something like 20 con, 20 endurance, 20 agility, 30 dmg / healing stat (and maybe some charisma depending on class).

It is very close though, only minor tweaking needed at 30+ imo, no major changes needed.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Delf hasn't made it a secret that he hates healers (especially the kiting kind). He doesn't want it to be the case that if a group of two people ran into another group of two in the wild, that the group with the healer will likely win due to survivability. While I understand the concern, my response is that its just the nature of the beast; Healers... Heal.

I was hoping there'd be a massive benefit into dumping my points into wisdom as a healer, which will tell the world I'm here to heal, and not kill. Sadly, throwing all your points into Wisdom (not like its practical) doesn't give a significant healing boost, which is a shame. Yes, it is noticeable, but it isn't game changing. I want to deal next to no damage and heal for days, why can't I be granted that?

While you aren't wrong of my distaste for healers, your example situation is very off the mark. Basically, I do not wish for the major healing classes (Mystic / Cleric) to be able to kill other players in most situations. They are support classes, and should rely on supporting in order to win their fights. In a 2v2, where one side has a healer and one does not, I'm completely fine with the healer side winning in most cases (assuming he plays his cards right). It's a support class. If a support class does not provide significant aid to their team by supporting them, then what exactly would the point be?

The problem is, if their heals are large enough to provide ample support, they can simply kite in circles while dealing very minute amounts of damage, and then eventually win the fight. And not just one fight. Every fight. Most players that play the healing classes don't know how to PvP very well, but a few do, and the ones who do, are invincible. It's not an enjoyable experience to fight a good mystic / cleric, because you will get kited for 10 minutes until they eventually win. It's stupid, and it's not what I want out of the healing classes. I find them to present a very poor form of combat, and a very poor balance situation. But meh, /rant off


On your heal numbers statement, you are forgetting about the potency of mana regeneration. This a new mechanic to Herocraft, as previously, each class has had a static mana regeneration value. While no, I don't allow you to get obscene levels of healing with wisdom, but I do let the heals exceed the values that you currently see on live, assuming you have a very high wisdom value. In addition to this, the healers have near absurd levels of mana regeneration, allowing you, with minimal mana management, keep your group sustained for much longer durations. If anything, I have buffed the "kiting healer" strategy, as healers benefit majorly from wasting another player's time.


----
If this were a standard MMO, I'd have no issues, but it isn't, and so I do. Herocraft PvP functions very differently than most games, and it's too easy for a healer to counter every single class in the game if they have the ability to heal themselves excessively while also kiting any attackers. It's relatively bullshit. Now, I can offset this by increasing the self-heal reduction and then buffing heals, but then healer players will have the same statements of "I don't heal enough".

Regardless of how people rate the healing or 1v1 capabilities of these classes however, I would much prefer any one of the healers to be in my group over most other classes. Healers...are strong.