EXP Sheet (WIP)

[Maristo]

Alex - I'd been looking over the new xp tables thinking the same thing that you are. The decrease in mining xp significantly outweighs the increase in crafting xp. In fact, crafting items gives you virtually zero xp whatosever. I mined all the way from 1-50 on my rogue before I specialized ranger and came away with two stacks of iron blocks, and a fair amount of gold and diamond. Assuming I was a crafter (or i wanted to relevel as something else) I couldn't even milk 10,000 experience out of the materials I've spent well over 25 hours gathering. That's less than 1/10th of the total amount needed to go from 1-50. I understand the desire to make level 50 an accomplishment you can feel good about, but expecting players to put in upwards of 150 hours play time to reach 50 in a specialization isn't reasonable. This game isn't a job you can spend 8 hours a day playing, and even if you were to grind it out that much I think you'd find that the whole hero concept loses its charm after the 10th eight-hour mining and smithing session.

That doesnt even begin to touch the terrible distortion this could have on the server economy, or the scarcity of resources that's likely to occur due to overmining.

Please reconsider the XP rates, Kainzo. Keep it fun.

 

[sidesummy]

I'm was planning on writing up number based argument for some of these issues as well, but it seems Alex has done a fairly good just addressing it at a surface level for now. I would like to make one huge concern for someone who'd been mining like I have. I've been doing a huge underground clearing for a township (i.e. strip mining, and I've dug up a little over 150k individual blocks now. Now I've only acquire 2.5 stack of iron block, 40 gold blocks, 61 lapis blocks and about 25 diamonds and about 4000 coal... That is roughly 2500 block at were not stone/dirt/gravel/sand.... meaning I've gotten over 140k blocks that I had originally recieved 1xp a block for.... that is 140k xp... which is a hell of a lot of xp, and well over 80% of my total xp... removing that and not making crafting items a crap ton of xp per item will never balance it out.

Plus I think this will ruin the real purpose of makign crafting an xp source... now I'll jsut have to make a few ten thousands of something I don't want just to get xp anymore.

In conclusion... My biggest concern is the removal of 1xp blocks.... that are single handedly my only tangible source of xp, and craft for xp will be a undesired spending of in-game time from now on, but neccesary to lvl.

 

[Kainzo]

Specializations won't be able to benefit from the minor nodes, this is by design.

We will however adjust exp rates for other things, crafting/mining

 

[mrcrutches]

A combat class, who I'd assume enjoys killing things can easily camp a mob spawner for steady rate of exp, coin once the plugin is back, as well as some some what decent drops. During the night when lag dies down you gain ridiculous amounts, especially if you tie two close spawners together. Yet, for crafters, it seems best to just sit and beat on obsidian for hours on end. In short it just seems as if removing the 1xp per regular block is too much of a change. Grinding knowing that you're at the very least getting 1xp per block is rewarding enough to actually want to mine, regardless of how little the other blocks may give.

 

[Kainzo]

A combat class, who I'd assume enjoys killing things can easily camp a mob spawner for steady rate of exp, coin once the plugin is back, as well as some some what decent drops. During the night when lag dies down you gain ridiculous amounts, especially if you tie two close spawners together. Yet, for crafters, it seems best to just sit and beat on obsidian for hours on end. In short it just seems as if removing the 1xp per regular block is too much of a change. Grinding knowing that you're at the very least getting 1xp per block is rewarding enough to actually want to mine, regardless of how little the other blocks may give.

Thanks for the feedback - I'm thinking of a work around or fix rather than mindlessly hitting the same block

 

[Alator]

Could crafters get exp for every item they sell from a chestshop not to themselves? Only concern with that idea is have a buddy buy a crapload of things for 1c and just give him/her the money back.

 

[Doogler]

Not gonna lie... Not a fan of the mining hit.

I think the whole server agrees

 

[Malphugus]

I think the whole server agrees

Indeed. I'm trying to crawl up the last 5 levels to master alchemy (so I can swap to mason) and am making roughly 1 level per day. A more casual player, with less free time than me, would probably have given up already.

[edit] Finally made it to lvl50 alchemist. the last 5 levels were a real struggle, just boosting some of the rare nodes (diamond/lapiz) would help reduce the grindiness of levelling a crafter spec. Note: almost all of my exp was from mining, crafting just wasn't an option for me as I didn't have enough chest space for the crafted items, or coin to buy more lwc's.

 

[Faunherer]

I propose the idea of gaining xp from planting saplings. One sapling being 1 exp is proposterous, of course, but maybe the experience gained can be halved and limited. For every two saplings planted, within a reasonable amount of time (say, three minutes), you get 1 xp, but you can only get a certain amount of xp from this method every day. This way people have something to do with saplings because I am pretty sure I am the only person that runs around planting trees for the fun of it. This is also a good method of encouraging the rehabilitation of natural resources.

~save the whales

 

[Kainzo]

Indeed. I'm trying to crawl up the last 5 levels to master alchemy (so I can swap to mason) and am making roughly 1 level per day. A more casual player, with less free time than me, would probably have given up already.

[edit] Finally made it to lvl50 alchemist. the last 5 levels were a real struggle, just boosting some of the rare nodes (diamond/lapiz) would help reduce the grindiness of levelling a crafter spec. Note: almost all of my exp was from mining, crafting just wasn't an option for me as I didn't have enough chest space for the crafted items, or coin to buy more lwc's.

I have been boosting the rarer nodes, gold/diamond - thanks for the feedback
@RightLegRed made me do it.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

I'd like to say without going through the theatrics of mathing the entire thing out again that diamonds being 15xp does not at all speed up mining. All the diamonds I have found on this server so far at 15xp each is still less than 5k xp. There is no doubt among the crafter community that leveling went from a good time investment of a few ten's of hours to a process that could get into the triple digits of numbers just to master one spec. I've played 1 day on the server since I reset my statistics, and about 90% of that has been mining. I am level 27 [About 30% of the way there, and most of my xp was before the minor nodes were removed]. I don't know how many people have the time to spend 4+ days of playtime that they have available to just mine.

I know that a crafter should not be just mining, but there is currently no economy set-up to sell goods for a reasonable price, therefore storing goods in blocks is just the best way to go as one LWC chest can protect your investment versus a plethora of them to protect all your crafted goods. I don't know the fact that I am supposed to craft diamond picks until my thumbs are numb just to get to level 50 when I'm a smith. I have used the same diamond pick from level 1-27, so why would I need to craft more?

 

[Draskuul]

Mining xp as a Mason has been reduced to pointless. Without at least the 1 xp from stone to have SOME progress it makes leveling worse than any grind I've experienced in my life.

Crafting xp is pointless. If I took all of the resources of an entire town I figured I'd only manage a handful of levels. As it was I burned a gargantuan backlog of materials saved for xp and have one level to show for it.

There is no desire to be online let alone build without regions. Now there is no desire to be online to level.

 

[Kainzo]

Leveling will be different for each player. How efficient you are, time vested, how much you die / etc will come into play here.

We won't be setting an algorithmic equation to this. It simply is not needed. We're still in process of adjusting amounts and it will be a work in progress for some time until we're happy with it.

Heroes is not an end-all plugin, you need to get to X level to have fun. It's about the journey and not the destination - we're still implementing skills to balance the classes out.

Instead of whining about the changes - show me where logic is not kept between crafting item / mining nodes
IE: Powered Rails vs Gold Sword (The material costs dont match the exp!)
Want me to add back in 1xp to craft specs? Sure, but i'll add in 90% exp loss on death.

 

[Draskuul]

Heroes is not an end-all plugin, you need to get to X level to have fun. It's about the journey and not the destination - we're still implementing skills to balance the classes out.

From all indications, Heroes is an attempt to effectively turn MC into an MMORPG. I'll set aside the whole (valid) argument about MC's suitability for such a goal. However, the "about the journey and not the destination" is the exact opposite of every MMO I've ever touched. The journey is the price you pay--the punishment for the new player--to actually be able to play the game. Probably the very definition of "hardcore" from the WoW perspective is NOT the person who plays just to level endless alts then stop and level another. It's the person who levels as quickly as possible to get that pointless and arduous task out of the way then begin playing the real game.

As far as mining xp vs crafting xp: I'd say the majority of my xp mining came from the stone, even at only 1 xp a pop. Yeah, the occasional nice vein of coal or minerals was nice, but those are rare enough to simply not add up enough.

The majority of the crafting items are either no xp (0 or 1 xp, which is zero as a spec), require materials that no sane person would use (gold anything), or require crafting items in quantities that will never be used but are common enough that nobody would ever bother buying (diamond anything).

The comment made before, rather condescendingly, was that we didn't lose anything with Heroes, and to stop whining. As a builder, yes we did. We lost diamond picks until after 50 levels of grinding. We need another 30 levels of at least three times the grinding (largely dictated now by luck in finding rare veins to mine) just to get back bridges, gates and lifts, all of which we had before Heroes. And a mason to 40 or 50? What's the point? If we ever get regions back I simply don't see any purpose for hidden switches. With pistons coming in shortly we will get a monumentally sexier alternative to the old [Door]s.

Who gained anything? PVPers. This coming from the server that has said many times in the past "hardcore does not mean PVP".

What this all boils down to is Herocraft isn't Minecraft anymore. There is nothing here for builders anymore. You'll lose the older more mature players, which I'd confidently assume are largely builders, and you're going to pick up more of the kids who just want to PVP and grief.

Kainzo, if this really is your goal--which it seems to be--please say so and save us builders the time and trouble of assuming we should have any expectations otherwise.

 

[Kainzo]

Hardcore is not playing 24/7 to get to the max level first just to say you did it. Nothing about WoW is hardcore or ever was. Some of the bosses, sure were a tad harder than the last, but there were very few fights that made that game interesting. We won't be cloning any MMO out to date. So please throw your preconceived notions to the wind.

"We lost Diamond picks" - That's unfortunate, one thing goes so we should sink the entire ship, eh?
Heroes is different from Minecraft - it's true. Instead of carrying over everything into bland mediocrity, we're providing players with a choice. A choice to do something unique and different better than any RPG style server can. I won't lie and say we're done tweaking and making skills. You must be patient, I am growing very tired of the aching over "I LOST MY DIAMOND PICKZ!"

I will not support any doom and gloom theorist - I will instead, ignore you.

Now that being said - we're tuning EXP, we're adjusting things to the appropriate rates, if its not in the time frame of your likings - I urge you to not level until its complete. The entire staff has things to do, balance is one of them. Balance is a very hard thing to obtain and make everyone happen. NOT EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY. I know full well that it is the case, I will follow the vision of what Heroes and Herocraft should be, even to the bitter end

Keep our feedback objective and if at all possible:

• Dont name call
• Be unbiased
• Support it with facts/numbers
• Know that it's feedback, not law

We have added more proctors - we have refined our whitelisting policies, we've kept the rift raft out of the server by punishing grievers, banning hackers and muting morons. A higher population doesn't always mean we're slipping and "allow immaturity" it just means that in a pool of 50 players, 5 of them will be morons, out of 100 players, 10 may be morons.

It's not by chance that Herocraft is #1, it's because the community and the staff is professional and above par. We put in more time collectively than any other server out there.

Just because you don't agree - doesn't mean there isn't good reason for it.

 

[carmeops]

i see many things that i dislike currently in the heroes plugin, first of all, I PLAY MINECRAFT CAUSE I HATE LVLING!

but ok, whatever, i can live without armor/sword, i'm not a fighter anyway, so i don't have to lvl to fight. and, if we need lvl to have mod based habilities, fine, i can play regular minecraft until i got xp by normal activity and enjoy what i got.

however, i heard some rumour about limiting pistons for very high level engineer (i even saw kainzo speaking about lvl max engineer) FOR A VANILLA FEATURE??

i don't care if new habilities hadded by mods are only gave to high lvl players, even if i don't like i can still play regular minecraft, but if you really plan to give CRUCIAL vanilla habilities, like pistons creation to a max level specialisation: i'll quit

no hard feeling, i like herocraft, i really do, i spend 100 bucks in it and i don't regret it, but i intend to play in a minecraft server, and removing big vanilla features so casuals players can't use them, it's not minecraft anymore, if it's not minecraft, i don't want to play it.

so i wait to see how comes the new updates.

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

I agree. You can take away the Falsebook stuff from your average joe all you want. Give it to the high-level people who worked for it; they're not a part of Minecraft anyway. You can even restrict armor and weapon usage, because even if I can't have a diamond sword, I can still have a sword period. The bow kinda falls under the category of piston, but hey. Get better with the sword.

Pistons are Minecraft. Shears are Minecraft, but with the Crafter's Guild, prices of wool and leaves shouldn't be too ridiculous. But pistons are Minecraft! And irreplaceable! Please don't take that from us, Kain.

 

[PineappleChicken]

The Next Day: Crafter level 45+ to shear wool. lol