Suggestion Dragoon Stamina Costs

[lhatchy1]

Nice @iHazBryn really enjoyed the thread, nice to see you are giving solutions and not just problems, these seem fare changes.
lhatchy1 approved!

 

[iHazBryn]

Nice @iHazBryn really enjoyed the thread, nice to see you are giving solutions and not just problems, these seem fare changes.
lhatchy1 approved!

Thanks man, Means a lot to me.

 

[iHazBryn]

I feel like the problem with the stamina system is the "cost to regen" ratio.

What I mean by this is that skills have very high costs, sometimes 50%-60% stamina. Yet the regen is very slow, only 5% a second. This turns melee pvp into a smash-fest. Whoever's class does the most melee damage and armor wins. If this ratio changed to have a faster regeneration speed, pvp would become a lot more fun, and a lot more skill based.

If you don't want people to use all their skills in one combo, put the cost high, but then the regen needs to be a lot higher.

If you want a more mana like concept, with conserving, but skill combos, put the costs low, and the regen slower.

Right now it's stuck in between, with high costs, but slowish regen speeds. This causes Rogue and warrior specs to mostly focus on the "Click spaming" side of pvp, instead of the more fun, more versatile, skill-use side.

As a dragoon, which is essentially a utility class with low melee damage, I find myself useless in engagements after using one or two control skills.

 

[jbird112233]

Yea at first I was thinking that dragoon is fine but now that I realize that our stanima use is so high it's hard to deal with.

 

[iHazBryn]

Yea at first I was thinking that dragoon is fine but now that I realize that our stanima use is so high it's hard to deal with.

The thing is, we are stuck in between being tanks and being dps. That puts us in a really weird place, A really skill dependent place. That's why I say we are a utility class. We are centered around controlling the fight, with jump and our CC abilities. We are honestly almost as skill-use dependent as a caster, just in a different way.

That becomes really hard when we don't have enough stamina to use half our skills in a real fight.

 

[iHazBryn]

Watching the tourny today I noticed that the warrior PVP scene is really dominated by sammys, and DKs. The reason being that DK's are tanky, yet have insane damage with Harmtouch, and Sammys do an awesome amount of damage, while being tanky enough.

Dragoon is stuck in the middle. We do 69 damage with auto attacks, 30 less than sammys and only 20 more than DKs. And our armor is in the middle too. This makes us only useful as a support class, but with only a couple skills, high stam costs, and no heals, we are completely outclassed by Bards in every sense. Bards slow, heal, buff and remove debuffs, and do 70 damage, while all we bring to the table is a slow or two.

The tourny was all about having a dedicated tank, a dedicated support or healer, and the rest damage classes.

The only place dragoon fits in there is as a support, but we are just outclassed.

For dragoon to be viable, either the stamina costs need to be lowered, the damage needs to be uped (Either through spade damage, or a nuke skill), or our armor needs to be buffed, maybe back to all iron, and dia legs.

I don't know what Kainzos concept of dragoon is, But either we need to be more tanky, more bursty or more supporty. You can't stick us in the middle and hope for the best.

Tremor could be a great skill to have in the arena, yet it takes more than half your stamina. Same with spear, and impale.

TL;DR: Dragoons are outclassed by other support classes, and need a buff either through tankyness, stamina costs, or damage output. Or they need a small buff to all three, to keep them in the middle, but make them more powerful.

Any Dragoons have input?

@jbird112233 @Sigpit @Falker57 (I think you were a dragoon ) @MasterLink742 @15935952 @Anyotherdragoons

 

[jbird112233]

Watching the tourny today I noticed that the warrior PVP scene is really dominated by sammys, and DKs. The reason being that DK's are tanky, yet have insane damage with Harmtouch, and Sammys do an awesome amount of damage, while being tanky enough.

Dragoon is stuck in the middle. We do 69 damage with auto attacks, 30 less than sammys and only 20 more than DKs. And our armor is in the middle too. This makes us only useful as a support class, but with only a couple skills, high stam costs, and no heals, we are completely outclassed by Bards in every sense. Bards slow, heal, buff and remove debuffs, and do 70 damage, while all we bring to the table is a slow or two.

The tourny was all about having a dedicated tank, a dedicated support or healer, and the rest damage classes.

The only place dragoon fits in there is as a support, but we are just outclassed.

For dragoon to be viable, either the stamina costs need to be lowered, the damage needs to be uped (Either through spade damage, or a nuke skill), or our armor needs to be buffed, maybe back to all iron, and dia legs.

I don't know what Kainzos concept of dragoon is, But either we need to be more tanky, more bursty or more supporty. You can't stick us in the middle and hope for the best.

Tremor could be a great skill to have in the arena, yet it takes more than half your stamina. Same with spear, and impale.

TL;DR: Dragoons are outclassed by other support classes, and need a buff either through tankyness, stamina costs, or damage output. Or they need a small buff to all three, to keep them in the middle, but make them more powerful.

Any Dragoons have input?

@jbird112233 @Sigpit @Falker57 (I think you were a dragoon ) @MasterLink742 @15935952 @Anyotherdragoons

OMG ihazbryn this is perfect for dragoons I think that our armor should be buffed and or our damage. Right now dragoons are a extremely week class it's almost impossible to 1v1 a samurai and win as a dragoon (I have done it once against aetision) but other wise we lose almost every time to sammys dk's and paladins even. The problem is we can't tank any of the dread knights or Sammy's damge enough and we can't damage the DK and paladins enough to have even a slight chance. I feel dragoons need more damage or armor so we can successfully choose what fights we want to go into, instead of use just running at the sight of a DK.

 

[Digger360]

Dreadknights and dragoons have almost the same armor rating. Dragoons are mostly designed for hunting down and slaughtering rouges and casters, nearly every rogue spec can run from a dreadknight.

Dreadknights have damage, dragoons have mobility.Dragoons can choose which fights to partake in, meaning they "dominate" in world pvp. (Survivalbility).

Although I agree tremor could use a buff, or spear a lowered warmup.

 

[iHazBryn]

Dreadknights and dragoons have almost the same armor rating. Dragoons are mostly designed for hunting down and slaughtering rouges and casters, nearly every rogue spec can run from a dreadknight.

Dreadknights have damage, dragoons have mobility.Dragoons can choose which fights to partake in, meaning they "dominate" in world pvp. (Survivalbility).

Although I agree tremor could use a buff, or spear a lowered warmup.

DKs have soul leech, more health ect.

Mobility doesn't mean much when you can't do anything after a jump or two.

Yes dragoons are good for picking out and focusing casters rangers ect, but they could be a much better utility class.

I want to be as good as a bard

Yes I never die as a dragoon, but if I get focused by a sammy, I can get forced out of the fight extremly quickly, which makes me less useful. IE we need more damage, to help more before we are forced out, or more tankness, to last longer.

 

[Aburido_burrito]

I was a dragoon half the map, and I feel ihazbryn just explained everything that has flaws and solutions to all those flaws. I agree 100%.

 

[Roadkill909]

I agree about Jump. I would be happy to exchange a higher cooldown for a lower stam cost.

I'm more in favor of more speed, though, although a smidgeon extra damage wouldn't hurt. On occasion sammy's have kept up with me, which bothers me. A skill like "One" with a low stam cost would be nice.

 

[jbird112233]

Dreadknights and dragoons have almost the same armor rating. Dragoons are mostly designed for hunting down and slaughtering rouges and casters, nearly every rogue spec can run from a dreadknight.

Dreadknights have damage, dragoons have mobility.Dragoons can choose which fights to partake in, meaning they "dominate" in world pvp. (Survivalbility).

Although I agree tremor could use a buff, or spear a lowered warmup.

Yea but against a DK dragoons get destroyed every time almost instantly.

 

[Aburido_burrito]

Derp herp harmtouch empathy I'm at 3 hearts last time I was a dragoon( month ago)

 

[jbird112233]

Derp herp harmtouch empathy I'm at 3 hearts last time I was a dragoon( month ago)

Pretty much.

 

[Aburido_burrito]

Dread knight over all is op, samurai used to be able to kill them but they lost inversion.

 

[jbird112233]

Dread knight over all is op, samurai used to be able to kill them but they lost inversion.

 

[iHazBryn]

DK's and sammys are exremly high damage, and pallys just don't die.

Dragoons are at the bottom of the food chain right now.

People might assume that dragoons are really good, because it is such a played class, but that's just because jump is super fun. From a competitive stand point, there really is no reason not to go DK or sammy.

This thread has gotten A LOT of positive feedback, and I really feel like most of these changes will not push Dragoon into a bad place, IE Overpowered.

Maybe some Balance team members could get in here, snd see what they think. Maybe bring it forward to Kainzo in a more profesionnal way than a "Suggestion" thread.

@brancher @c12095 @Aetosion @victim130 @Dielan9999 @otherpeopleonthebalanceteam

 

[victim130]

I've read over the first post and it all seems well thought out. Next chance I get (Or if any other balance members want to) we can push it up to Kain. I will vouch though that even Samurai is a bit under at the moment with stam costs. MW is getting out done by bash... Regardless I know Dragoons are easy to kill in a fight and they look really clunky in the skills they have.

 

[brancher]

This thread is full of helpful suggestions, I agree that dragoons are a little bit under-equipped at the moment, but not to the point at which you're playing it out to be.

Strike - useless
Charge - useless

Yes, these two skills need work; i'll give you that. These are basically just eating space for other skills that could be in a dragoons arsenal. But take it from me, I have played dragoon 85% of my time on herocraft, and i've been playing for well over a year. They do not need stam changes, dragoons (or other warriors for that matter) were not designed for skill spamming, they are melee. They are intended to deal most of their damage through actually pounding the shit out of that left click.

Now I know when I say this people are thinking "BUT DK'S AND SAMURAI ARE OP COMPARET TO DEM OMG"
No shit. Dragoons are, as you've said, a utility class. If stam costs were reduced then you could literally win every engagement solely from having them disoriented with things like impale and tremor (granted you could never, EVER effectively use this in 1v1 combat, aside from punting a kid off a mountain or something along the lines).

I'm not gunning you down or anything, but how I feel, and i'm sure how kainzo and the other balance team members feel, is that minecraft is, lets just say it, bland and boring without the heroes mod. If you make every class strong against every class, then it basically just nulls out everything the heroes mod does. DK's have their weaknesses, as do samurais. Saying that you have to play these 2 specific classes to be competitive in the warrior sub-spec is just way off.

Dragoons are normally not good in a 1v1 situation, unless you know the class you're fighting and what they do.
This changes DRASTICALLY when engaging as a group. Impale, oh man, impale.. it can single handily win a fight solely by holding a player still long enough for the rest of the group to blow their load and get that player out of the way, whether it be a healer or a high damage output class. That's just impale by itself.

Then you have to take into account the ability for a dragoon to completely bypass a group fight by literally hopping over the group, jump is not just a skill for fun, it can definitely be used in combat.

and THEN you have spear. "Oh hey, caster in the back? *spear* *impale*. If the group you're with (which i'm assuming is legacy so I know they get the jist of what the hell their doing in fights) is coordinated, then that is someone out of the fight, instantly.

Aside from these skills, dragoons really are worthless. But these skills hold the class up well enough to not be immediately concerned with balancing the class. You have to be delicate when balancing, because 99% of the time, when you make a class better in any shape or form, its automatically considered op. That's just our playerbase, we can't help it.

 

[victim130]

@brancher You have a point to what you've said. I'll leave it to you if you want to bring this one up (Plus my family pc's keyboard is fucking annoying to make anything worth reading)