Suggestion CUSTOM MOBS NEED TO BE STOPPED

[victim130]

I think you forgot the major fact that they spawn in towns with /town toggle mobs is off. You shouldn't have to go through such a level to just get a fight.
You also aren't the only ones who have played multiple maps to PvP.

So the server should cater tou you and your friends? And sir, my entire time on HC has been about pvp.

 

[Haxnn]

While I'm not entirely opposed to mobs interfering in combat, I think it's important to remember that generally people who want to PvP want to test their skill and ability against someone else directly. While it can be argued that mobs add a layer of complexity to the fight, they still represent something that is out of the player's control that has the potential to completely change the outcome of a fight. I don't PvP very often so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in general people PvP for two reasons:

1. Because it's fun.
2. Because they want to directly compare their ability to their opponent's ability.

Sure there is an argument that mobs add an additional layer to PvP, but is that necessarily a good thing? Obviously a large amount of PvPers are having less fun and not enjoying the experience because they have to spend more time concentration on the AI than they do their opponent. It makes the experience less enjoyable. There is a reason that every time we have 1v1s or mock team fights in our town dark room we turn on the lights and clear out the mobs first. As soon as mobs get involved instantly most players are having a less enjoyable PvP experience. I would also like to add that I can't recall anytime we've had someone get killed by a custom mob in our town fights and not complain that it wasn't fair because the mob interfered.

On to the second reason, as soon as an AI is introduced a players skill is no longer compared solely to their opponent. The custom mobs change the dynamic of a fight from a 1v1 to a 1 vs 1 vs mob. When you lose a duel to someone generally you can break down the fight and figure out why you lost and how to improve. You can find your weaknesses and work on fixing them. When two wizards are dueling and one of them gets hit by witherfire for 33% of their health it's a lot harder to determine where you are going wrong. You have to wonder if you were actually going to win the fight you just made the mistake of being two blocks closer to the boss mob than your opponent, or if you were generally outplayed.

So what is the solution? Honestly I have no idea. I personally enjoy the custom mobs for PvE and leveling, and I enjoy that the nights actually feel dangerous again. That being said, there needs to be a way for players, large groups especially, to PvP without needing to worry about the mobs. I really like the suggestion of making the mobs not aggro during the day because there is no reason the world has to feel so deadly 24/7. Minecraft has always been about exploring and building while the sun is up, and hiding or hunting when the monsters come out at night. At least with this solution there are still mobs to level with during the day but the environment won't feel as oppressive, at least not while the sun is still out.

 

[Dielan9999]

While I'm not entirely opposed to mobs interfering in combat, I think it's important to remember that generally people who want to PvP want to test their skill and ability against someone else directly. While it can be argued that mobs add a layer of complexity to the fight, they still represent something that is out of the player's control that has the potential to completely change the outcome of a fight. I don't PvP very often so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in general people PvP for two reasons:

1. Because it's fun.
2. Because they want to directly compare their ability to their opponent's ability.

I think this is the major disconnect here. Of course there are people who think pvp is fun and want to test their abilities, but to me this is PVP-server mentality not really RPG mentality. There's room for people to act like this in an RPG setting but I think there are TOO MANY of these types of players right now.

For example, I only PVP when:

1. I have something to gain
2. I have something to defend that I will benefit from
   
3. Someone I don't like has something to lose

Call it RP-ish, but if these reasons aren't present I probably won't go out of my way to fight

I'm thinking people who do nothing but pvp all day on HC agree with your two bullet points Haxnn, where as I'm the dying breed. As long as we're an RPG server and not a PVP server both styles need accommodation. This is why SO much group fighting happens at the spawn, it's just a harmless game to them. No implications for winning or losing aside from who's better at fighting. While I'm more interested in blocking towns from growing, stealing items, etc.

 

[Air_Restraint]

While I'm not entirely opposed to mobs interfering in combat, I think it's important to remember that generally people who want to PvP want to test their skill and ability against someone else directly. While it can be argued that mobs add a layer of complexity to the fight, they still represent something that is out of the player's control that has the potential to completely change the outcome of a fight. I don't PvP very often so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in general people PvP for two reasons:

1. Because it's fun.
2. Because they want to directly compare their ability to their opponent's ability.

Sure there is an argument that mobs add an additional layer to PvP, but is that necessarily a good thing? Obviously a large amount of PvPers are having less fun and not enjoying the experience because they have to spend more time concentration on the AI than they do their opponent. It makes the experience less enjoyable. There is a reason that every time we have 1v1s or mock team fights in our town dark room we turn on the lights and clear out the mobs first. As soon as mobs get involved instantly most players are having a less enjoyable PvP experience. I would also like to add that I can't recall anytime we've had someone get killed by a custom mob in our town fights and not complain that it wasn't fair because the mob interfered.

On to the second reason, as soon as an AI is introduced a players skill is no longer compared solely to their opponent. The custom mobs change the dynamic of a fight from a 1v1 to a 1 vs 1 vs mob. When you lose a duel to someone generally you can break down the fight and figure out why you lost and how to improve. You can find your weaknesses and work on fixing them. When two wizards are dueling and one of them gets hit by witherfire for 33% of their health it's a lot harder to determine where you are going wrong. You have to wonder if you were actually going to win the fight you just made the mistake of being two blocks closer to the boss mob than your opponent, or if you were generally outplayed.

So what is the solution? Honestly I have no idea. I personally enjoy the custom mobs for PvE and leveling, and I enjoy that the nights actually feel dangerous again. That being said, there needs to be a way for players, large groups especially, to PvP without needing to worry about the mobs. I really like the suggestion of making the mobs not aggro during the day because there is no reason the world has to feel so deadly 24/7. Minecraft has always been about exploring and building while the sun is up, and hiding or hunting when the monsters come out at night. At least with this solution there are still mobs to level with during the day but the environment won't feel as oppressive, at least not while the sun is still out.

I think this is the major disconnect here. Of course there are people who think pvp is fun and want to test their abilities, but to me this is PVP-server mentality not really RPG mentality. There's room for people to act like this in an RPG setting but I think there are TOO MANY of these types of players right now.

For example, I only PVP when:

1. I have something to gain
2. I have something to defend that I will benefit from
   
3. Someone I don't like has something to lose

Call it RP-ish, but if these reasons aren't present I probably won't go out of my way to fight

I'm thinking people who do nothing but pvp all day on HC agree with your two bullet points Haxnn, where as I'm the dying breed. As long as we're an RPG server and not a PVP server both styles need accommodation. This is why SO much group fighting happens at the spawn, it's just a harmless game to them. No implications for winning or losing aside from who's better at fighting. While I'm more interested in blocking towns from growing, stealing items, etc.

I don't oppose the ideas Haxnn has, but I would honestly prefer if the mobs just didn't spawn during the day. Leveling during the day should not be a problem. Everyone(Atleast majority of people) use a dark room.

 

[victim130]

To clarify, I'm not opposed to a dueling plugin. I just think open world pvp is fine as is.

 

[Dielan9999]

This next post is getting slightly off-topic so i am going to wrap it in spoiler tags to save space.

Spoiler

I think this is the major disconnect here. Of course there are people who think pvp is fun and want to test their abilities, but to me this is PVP-server mentality not really RPG mentality. There's room for people to act like this in an RPG setting but I think there are TOO MANY of these types of players right now.

For example, I only PVP when:

1. I have something to gain
2. I have something to defend that I will benefit from
   
3. Someone I don't like has something to lose

Call it RP-ish, but if these reasons aren't present I probably won't go out of my way to fight

I'm thinking people who do nothing but pvp all day on HC agree with your two bullet points Haxnn, where as I'm the dying breed. As long as we're an RPG server and not a PVP server both styles need accommodation. This is why SO much group fighting happens at the spawn, it's just a harmless game to them. No implications for winning or losing aside from who's better at fighting. While I'm more interested in blocking towns from growing, stealing items, etc.

Quoting myself for a follow up point --

Back in the good 'ol days of Zeal through Haven maps a lot of the group fighting that happened (and it was a downward trend as time went on, hence why we are where we are at today) was for RP reasons.

For example. In Zeal map all of the towns south of spawn (All of Newerth's towns, all of KRS's(my) towns, KoE's towns, and GreekCrackShot's towns) would group up and stomp any town that tried to settle south of spawn if they didn't want to be in a formal alliance with us. These "alliances" were just blocks of text we wrote down on our township threads but they really meant something back then.

So an abstract example - if someone killed me indiscriminately out in the wild (perhaps I was mining or something) I would probably raid their town later with a group of people from my town and its allies, and usually they would also respond with force. In today's herocraft when someone kills you, you are expected to either get over it, kill them back, or quit the server. Everyone looks out for themselves and their handful of friends and shuts their selves away from the other towns. This is an inflexible environment that new players cannot thrive in unless they happen to ask in RE chat at the right time to get picked up by a noob friendly town.

MY POINT is that there were simply more group fights back in the "good 'ol days" because people thought differently on the implications of killing someone and what to do about it. Changing mythic mobs isn't going to bring back the frequency of group pvp like it used to be. We need more server veterans to drop the PVP-server mentality and start role playing again. All that stuff we did on the previous maps WAS role play weather you thought it was or not. Not enough people understand this.

 

[Air_Restraint]

This next post is getting slightly off-topic so i am going to wrap it in spoiler tags to save space.

Spoiler

Quoting myself for a follow up point --

Back in the good 'ol days of Zeal through Haven maps a lot of the group fighting that happened (and it was a downward trend as time went on, hence why we are where we are at today) was for RP reasons.

For example. In Zeal map all of the towns south of spawn (All of Newerth's towns, all of KRS's(my) towns, KoE's towns, and GreekCrackShot's towns) would group up and stomp any town that tried to settle south of spawn if they didn't want to be in a formal alliance with us. These "alliances" were just blocks of text we wrote down on our township threads but they really meant something back then.

So an abstract example - if someone killed me indiscriminately out in the wild (perhaps I was mining or something) I would probably raid their town later with a group of people from my town and its allies, and usually they would also respond with force. In today's herocraft when someone kills you, you are expected to either get over it, kill them back, or quit the server. Everyone looks out for themselves and their handful of friends and shuts their selves away from the other towns. This is an inflexible environment that new players cannot thrive in unless they happen to ask in RE chat at the right time to get picked up by a noob friendly town.

MY POINT is that there were simply more group fights back in the "good 'ol days" because people thought differently on the implications of killing someone and what to do about it. Changing mythic mobs isn't going to bring back the frequency of group pvp like it used to be. We need more server veterans to drop the PVP-server mentality and start role playing again. All that stuff we did on the previous maps WAS role play weather you thought it was or not. Not enough people understand this.

I mean I agree it won't revive group fights. The main point of this was, it was ruining the very few group fights we were able to scrap up, you know?

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

I would again like to say that I believe my suggestion earlier in the thread fixes this problem for both parties. I am however very much in disagreement with what a lot of people are saying in this thread regarding PvP. People fight at spawn because it's the only play so many people are willing to fight, which absolutely blows for people who play Herocraft for PvP. I'm sure any active PvP centric town would say they prefer these fights outside of spawn.

I'm not an advocate of the personal attacks happening in this thread, but I do think there are some valid points that the PvP experience for towns like mine, Templar's, etc... You can say that when you're doing your own stuff, the mobs aren't an issue, and that is a point that stands. BUT, when there are fights anywhere outside spawn, the mobs are absolutely abysmal, for the people who like having teamfights at least. Mobs shooting their witherfire that gives you wither effect and taking away 3 hearts is something that definitely happens during these fights. I think the argument that this is healthy for PvP is not an argument that would be shared by an active, avid PvPer. Gimmicky mechanics are something that should not take place in a skill based environment like Herocraft PvP. I definitely agree to a certain extent that picking your fights based on your surroundings is something that should be done in open world PvP: terrain is a very important thing, mobs have in the past been something you had to work around, but the solution then was to light up the area or fight during the day. The issue is that there's not a way to pick your fights right now, or at least enough that you can negate mob attention the way you could in previous maps. The fact that the mobs are spawning during fights, and will always attack regardless of the circumstances is the issue. I have no problems with the mobs popping up, but for me it's the fact that they just jump in the fight. So once again, I feel that having the mobs only be aggressive during nighttime is a good solution for this. I think that this can keep the element of being aware of your surroundings and having the need to adjust accordingly, as well as making open world PvP a lot less obnoxious as it is right now.

EDIT: This also adds a tiny layer of skill in making sure you're aiming correctly, as if you accidentally hit a mob then you will rightfully be attacked by it.

 

[Dielan9999]

I mean I agree it won't revive group fights. The main point of this was, it was ruining the very few group fights we were able to scrap up, you know?

I think making them not spawn during the day would be enough to make this right.

 

[Air_Restraint]

I think making them not spawn during the day would be enough to make this right.

Also possibly that issue with them spawning in towns when they are toggled off. That could help a little too.

 

[victim130]

Off topic, but I hate the current safe zone pvp.

 

[Dielan9999]

Also possibly that issue with them spawning in towns when they are toggled off. That could help a little too.

This as well.

That's how regular mobs behave. Mythic mobs should as well.

Even if it worked, I don't think open world PVP could ever be fair or balanced, and that was the original argument for changing mythic mobs so that's the only reason I was disagreeing. If mythic mobs didn't spawn during the day and obeyed the town spawnning flag nobody would complain about this. It would just be understood that open world pvp is prone to these issues (just now isolated to night time)

 

[Haxnn]

I think this is the major disconnect here. Of course there are people who think pvp is fun and want to test their abilities, but to me this is PVP-server mentality not really RPG mentality. There's room for people to act like this in an RPG setting but I think there are TOO MANY of these types of players right now.

For example, I only PVP when:

1. I have something to gain
2. I have something to defend that I will benefit from
   
3. Someone I don't like has something to lose

Call it RP-ish, but if these reasons aren't present I probably won't go out of my way to fight

I'm thinking people who do nothing but pvp all day on HC agree with your two bullet points Haxnn, where as I'm the dying breed. As long as we're an RPG server and not a PVP server both styles need accommodation. This is why SO much group fighting happens at the spawn, it's just a harmless game to them. No implications for winning or losing aside from who's better at fighting. While I'm more interested in blocking towns from growing, stealing items, etc.

I understand your perspective, however I think in this case specifically it is easy to accommodate the PvP crowd without interfering with the RPG elements. I would actually argue that the customs mobs are having a negative impact on more than just PvPers. The biggest issues I've run into when trying to build Newerth's wall are the mobs. I am forced to hide inside at night because I can't handle the number of incredibly high hp, high damage mobs that spawn. I'm actually OK with this and enjoy that I have to watch my step and need to take risks in order to get work done during the nights. The issue however, is that I have to spend the entity of the minecraft day killing off the mobs that spawned. Often by the time I clear out the area so it's safe to build the sun is already setting. The current issue, at least in my opinion, is that the mobs are incredibly oppressive all the time. There is no down period or chance to catch your breath.

 

[Dielan9999]

I understand your perspective, however I think in this case specifically it is easy to accommodate the PvP crowd without interfering with the RPG elements. I would actually argue that the customs mobs are having a negative impact on more than just PvPers. The biggest issues I've run into when trying to build Newerth's wall are the mobs. I am forced to hide inside at night because I can't handle the number of incredibly high hp, high damage mobs that spawn. I'm actually OK with this and enjoy that I have to watch my step and need to take risks in order to get work done during the nights. The issue however, is that I have to spend the entity of the minecraft day killing off the mobs that spawned. Often by the time I clear out the area so it's safe to build the sun is already setting. The current issue, at least in my opinion, is that the mobs are incredibly oppressive all the time. There is no down period or chance to catch your breath.

Well we aren't all Pyromancer master race yeah I think there's room for another suggestion thread related to the specific mythic monsters that spawn and what the deal is there. How many Ro'gun the Savages do I gotta murder before they give up right?

 

[Danda]

Tbh we are playing a mmo themed RPG server not Call of Duty. Fair and balanced are two words we shouldn't need for the server. Aside from class balance. I get the frustration, but instead of always trying to change stuff, why not just learn to play around it? You know, like other games. You wouldn't hop on a Dark Souls forum and tell them mobs ruin pvp. You wouldn't go to Mortal Online and complain their are too many battle fields filled with enemies. If you did, you'd be laughed at.

On top of this, these mobs hardly ever seem to cause an issue. It happens, sure, but they are super slow and very easy to kite. Pick your fights wisely.

EDIT: Words of the wise, git gud

But the difference is those games were built like that to begin with. This is a change of something that has been around for 6 years prior to this changing and making an effect on the way things work. It's a perception difference. Ontop of these in these games the mobs don't spawn ontop of you. You know where they are and can see them to begin with they don't appear out of nowhere and attack you within seconds of them spawning. IMO these aren't good comparisons.

Ontop of this you're saying pick your fight wisely but you're not addressing the issue of these things spawning in the middle of the fight. These problems aren't noticable in the small scale combat and they don't spawn enough to be a problem at that level.

I don't think the power of the mobs is the problem it's the obsurd spawn rates when large groups of players are gathered together.

Off topic, but I hate the current safe zone pvp.

I think everyone does. But it seems raiding and world PvP seems to mostly be dead at these points with the exception of castles.

 

[Danda]

Changing mythic mobs isn't going to bring back the frequency of group pvp like it used to be.

I completely agree that Mythic mobs is not the sole problem. But it is a problem in large group combat, do I think the individual mobs need changing no.

I just feel there is something that can be done in relation to the spawning something is definitely off there in my opinion.

 

[Dielan9999]

I think everyone does. But it seems raiding and world PvP seems to mostly be dead at these points with the exception of castles.

Exactly right. I've posted suggestions before on why that is and how to fix that but I don't think this thread is the place for it.

 

[victim130]

Back at my PC so let me sum up my thoughts better. I agree it sucks and maybe a change is needed, but the biggest issue I think is the lack of player interest in adapting. That being said, dueling and such would be a cool re-addition. Giving a sanctioned area to fight even would be fine. Just something that you can actually call competitive. Outside of that though, everything should be unfair and situational. If you fall in lava, tough luck. Fall off a cliff mid fight, sucks dude. A mob claws you in the side right as your opponent shows up, try again. etcetc.

Most games play to this idea to add depth. If you see a narrow bridge that is broken and finicky while also being surrounded by lava, you might tread light and cautious, but instead give the time needed for the ambush to be set. Maybe you decide to rush across, but because of your haste the bridge gives way or you trip and now you're drinking molten stone. We need more situations like these. I get that its Minecraft as heart and the game isn't really capable of providing super complex situational experiences from every possible angle, but maybe a little fire here and there and maybe a dungeon filled with lava might be cool.

Anyways, back to the topic, day light de-spawning/de-hostile-ing the mobs would match current mechanics. That sounds fine. In the meanwhile, set up sanctioned fights in safe locations. Pretty sure Kain said he's implement an arena plugin if a good one was located, might be worth looking into.

Lastly, can I just say that towns with pvp arenas would be chill. We had plans to make a portion of town into one last map, but tbh if anyone else made one, I'd be up for pvp like that.

 

[Dielan9999]

@victim130 @Symbolite let's make a new, smaller dome in our region that's a pvp arena lmao

 

[Boomer779]

@victim130 @Symbolite let's make a new, smaller dome in our region that's a pvp arena lmao

As someone who doesn't play PvP often hit me up! I would live to be a part of making an arena of sorts like we have had in previous maps and improve my game