Suggestion Consolidate the 9 Professions into 3.

[MajorasMask]

If I could be a mason/engineer/merchant... I would die happy.

You'd also die OP.

 

[bluejack404]

You'd also die OP.

As tons of people who made very cogent and thorough arguments have said earlier in this thread, I disagree.

 

[MajorasMask]

As tons of people who made very cogent and thorough arguments have said earlier in this thread, I disagree.

Well, if you had all the abilities of a Merchant, Mason and Engineer COMBINED, then you'd already have tons of skills. The reasons professions were introduced were to seperate the many skills that the adventure update gave to us, aswell as allowing people to both build and PvP. If you were to have all the skills of a Merchant, Mason and Engineer, then you'd have to have 0 chance of winning in PvP, to balance out the building power you'd have.

What TheTXLibra suggested was to give not only crafting abilities, but also PvP abilities (through HP and tool use):

So basically, you'd be giving someone a chance to build efficient/complex stuff AND to PvP. How does this work when other players, only choosing a caster/rogue/warrior or healer class/specification (as opposed to the crafter class), would only have PvP skills?

 

[bluejack404]

Everyone who has PvP class can also choose a crafter class. They're not mutually exclusive, and as we've seen from the Zeal days when crafters were being beaten like Mexican pinatas, they never should be. So the fact that being a crafter gives you some PvP abilities (as you call them) seems irrelevant since all crafters get these abilities when they spec a PvP class.

Right now, Herocraft unfairly discriminates against dedicated builders. Anything that rights the balance is fine by me.

 

[MajorasMask]

Everyone who has PvP class can also choose a crafter class. They're not mutually exclusive, and as we've seen from the Zeal days when crafters were being beaten like Mexican pinatas, they never should be. So the fact that being a crafter gives you some PvP abilities (as you call them) seems irrelevant since all crafters get these abilities when they spec a PvP class.

Right now, Herocraft unfairly discriminates against dedicated builders. Anything that rights the balance is fine by me.

I have no clue what you mean. Do you mean that people will be able to have both a combat class and a profession (not to select a profession from the available 9, but using Libras suggestion; 3)?

 

[Joka10]

I did not play Zeal/Sanctum, but I have heard that one could only choose either a PvP class or a crafter class. I saw complaints in Dragongarde that people who primarily wanted to build were no longer wanted because the fighters could do the building on their own. Those have pretty much subsided, but I assume the sentiment still exists somewhere.

I'm not sure how balanced this would be, but what if a person could forfeit a combat class to choose multiple crafter specs? I'd say a maximum of three would be good to make up for the lack of PvP ability. There wouldn't really be an 'OP' person among the people who chose multiple crafter specs because they wouldn't be able to PvP competently at all, really. They would be entirely utility pretty much. I don't really see how one could pose the argument that "He has gates AND player detectors! OP! NERF!!!". OP just doesn't fit there, in my opinion...

So, that's what I propose. It would make people who just wanted to build a lot more capable of dedicating themselves to building (or other utilities), but wouldn't be neccessarily overpowered because they wouldn't have any PvP skills to be supplemented by their crafter specs.

 

[MajorasMask]

I did not play Zeal/Sanctum, but I have heard that one could only choose either a PvP class or a crafter class. I saw complaints in Dragongarde that people who primarily wanted to build were no longer wanted because the fighters could do the building on their own. Those have pretty much subsided, but I assume the sentiment still exists somewhere.

I'm not sure how balanced this would be, but what if a person could forfeit a combat class to choose multiple crafter specs? I'd say a maximum of three would be good to make up for the lack of PvP ability. There wouldn't really be an 'OP' person among the people who chose multiple crafter specs because they wouldn't be able to PvP competently at all, really. They would be entirely utility pretty much. I don't really see how one could pose the argument that "He has gates AND player detectors! OP! NERF!!!". OP just doesn't fit there, in my opinion...

So, that's what I propose. It would make people who just wanted to build a lot more capable of dedicating themselves to building (or other utilities), but wouldn't be neccessarily overpowered because they wouldn't have any PvP skills to be supplemented by their crafter specs.

My thoughts exactly! You can't have players with both the abilities of three professions AND a combat class, it just doesn't work. In addition, it'll make the server more like it was in Sanctum, whereas you didn't have to work together to get things done.

I like the idea of being able to take up two/three professions provided that you have no combat skills/abilities (in other words, you'll die every time, even to Lost Souls). I'm not sure if this could be coded, however. I still prefer the current system, as it doesn't seem to have many issues. I mean, the people that so desperately want to make amazing buildings, on their own, shouldn't be on the server anyway. Multiplayer is designed so people can work together. With an individual having more building abilities, then this wouldn't be the case.

 

[Danda]

Crafter Specs should not affect combat capability.

 

[leftovers5]

Crafter Specs should not affect combat capability.

Scribe seems to be walking on thin ice/right on the peripheral of affecting combat.

 

[Danda]

Scribe seems to be walking on thin ice/right on the peripheral of affecting combat.

Yes but it's minor utility that most people feel isn't worth losing your crafter spec for.

 

[LightningCape]

So one class would get the highest hp, the best tools, and faster exp gain?....seems fair. -.-

The classes we have now are fine, and add some fun variety to the game.

 

[Fjordsen]

Crafter Specs should not affect combat capability.

Crafter specs gets extra HP untill you eventually passes it with your combat spec HP.

 

[Danda]

Crafter specs gets extra HP untill you eventually passes it with your combat spec HP.

I know it does but every profession gains the same amount. This proposes that we change that so different classes gain different amount of HP per level.

Right now, Herocraft unfairly discriminates against dedicated builders. Anything that rights the balance is fine by me.

It was only changed because throughout Zeal about 80% of all crafers bitched and complained that they couldn't defend themselves. We kept using the argument of "you chose a crafter spec why're you trying to PvP with it?
If you wanted to fight you should have chosen a combat class."


It was only changed to what we have currently because a large portion of the community was incessantly bitching.

 

[bluejack404]

It was only changed because throughout Zeal about 80% of all crafers bitched and complained that they couldn't defend themselves. We kept using the argument of "you chose a crafter spec why're you trying to PvP with it?
If you wanted to fight you should have chosen a combat class.

That wasn't the issue. We weren't trying to PvP as crafters. We were forced into it by people who liked to gank us. We had no defenses. We chose a crafter class because we play Minecraft in order to build awesome things. That got a lot less fun when we became the helpless victim of every combat-specced player.

When a large part of the community "bitches," there just might be a legitimate problem.

 

[MajorasMask]

When a large part of the community "bitches," there just might be a legitimate problem.

And how are you going to stop players from ''ganking'' you? Also, there were some players back in Zeal who wanted to both build and PvP. The current profession system allows this; it enables people to both PvP and build. If you really want to make an amazing building with gates, lifts, pistons, farms, ect, then you should ask other people to help you. Like I said before, multiplayer is designed so that people play together.

 

[bluejack404]

And how are you going to stop players from ''ganking'' you?

Did you read the post I replied to? It wasn't talking about any of that. I stop players from ganking me now by smacking them around with my sword till they blow up into cool loot. Sometimes I die, but now it's a fair fight, and that's pretty cool. Still, building with full armor on and wasting inventory space reserved for stone with a diamond sword is annoying. And builders don't necessarily like to spend hours grinding for combat XP when they'd rather be building things that ultimately make the server better.

Honestly, when Herocraft gets promoted on websites all over the place, what do they use? Pictures. Of shit we built. 'Nuff said.

I don't have a problem with any of what you're talking about. Yeah! Let's play together. Multiplayer rocks. But the current system of nine professions is too restrictive and specialized, and all of your points have been refuted multiple times throughout this thread by a variety of people, so I'll let them stand as they are. I couldn't do them anymore justice than they've done themselves.

Actually, just reading TheTXLibra's posts should be enough. His arguments were cogent and thorough and have gone through every point you've made again and again. You can't throw the same points at me; I read the whole thread before posting.

 

[victim130]

Since Chief mentioned he wanted to improve some of the Non-PVP elements of the game, I would like to put forth this as a possible future direction for Heroes RPG.

SUGGESTION: Conslidate the 9 current Professions into a smaller number of professions with a more robust skillset each.

(if you already agree, you can skip the justifications and head straight to what I suggest as consolidations below. If you aren't convinced, read the justifications first.)

RPG JUSTIFICATION: Hyper-specialization is a fairly recent invention that has come from industrialization and later, the computer age. Heroes takes place in a relatively low-tech setting, with its analogue more likely being in the Middle Ages or very early Renaissance. In that timeframe, most non-combatants had to have very diverse skillsets to live. You made your own clothes, you built and fixed your own house, barn, etc. You raised your own food, you mended your own fences, etc, unless you were of a merchant class, in which case, you had as broad a skillset as possible for your type of chosen profession because you were more often than not the only one of your type for miles and miles, and the vast majority of inhabitants lived their whole lives never travelling more than 10-20 miles from the place where they were born (unless they went to war, of course).

PLAYER JUSTIFICATION: As it stands, the current profession system feels too restrictive. People don't want less ability just for the sake of having less, they want more. To draw a real-world analogue, if you go to one of those large pizza arcades, like Dave & Busters, or Coney Island, or Chuck-E-Cheese, etc, you don't want someone to tell you "Okay, thanks for visiting our arcade. Now, you must choose only one thing, and play that one thing from now on till your next visit (or shell out tons of money and lose your place in line). You can ONLY play the Go-Karts, or ONLY the Skee-ball games, or ONLY play the pool tables, or ONLY play air-hockey, or ONLY play the video games, and that's it. That's not nearly as much fun as an open-venue where you can ride on the Go-Karts for awhile, then go play a game of air-hockey, then maybe House of the Dead for awhile, etc. Back to Heroes itself, some of the Professions have an ability that would be cool to have, but everything else about it is so meh, almost no one bothers choosing it (ex. Pistons for Engineers). Simply put, it would just be more fun to players to have more choice and ability within their chosen profession. And more fun = more members with higher satisfaction. More members with higher satisfaction = more donations. More donations + more players = higher incentive to continue this wonderful project called Heroes.

MECHANICS JUSTIFICATION: Currently, if even one non-PVP ability breaks, or gets nerfed, the entirety of the profession that had that ability is usually completely screwed, because currently, it's often the only real ability they have worth having. For instance, if falsebook ICs break, engineers are pretty much useless till it gets fixed. If a chestshop exploit causes chestshops to be shut down for a few days till it can be patched, Merchants are screwed. If cauldrons breaks due to a plugin code, Alchemists are almost worthless (unless they happen to have blaze stuff and netherwart). etc... etc... Having a fewer number of professions with more robust abilities would mean that, even if one or two abilities were broken/nerfed/etc, players non-PVP options would still be relatively open to doing other things. Additionally, as far as balance goes, it's a lot easier to balance out 3-4 professions than 9+ professions.

So... with those justifications in mind, here is what I recommend for the consolidation of professions (the names of which could be whatever, I just picked these from novels):

Mystic - The theurges, witch-doctors, hedge-mages, witches, voodoun, midwives, wise women, wise ones, etc. Regardless of culture, these were the fringe element who made the potions, the battle-fetishes, the enchanted swords, the magic charms, and were often the healers of the local village as well. If a skill deals with brewing, cauldrons, enchanting, or non-class healing abilities like bandage, this class would receive that ability (this class would absorb Alchemist (without chainmail), Enchanter, and Scribe). They would have a Moderate number of hit points (higher than Merchants, but lower than Laborers), and the worst limitations on tools. Experience would come from Crafting, Farming, and Skills, to represent the closest RPG sources of what their professional skill would really benefit from. Experience progression would be Slow, to represent the fact that it is always the older, wiser members of this profession that have unlocked the greatest secrets of the Mystic World. Since this class is also the closest thing to a real-world chemist, they would have the TNT ability later on.

Laborer - These are the backbone of any community. For the most part, uneducated peasants with a necessarily broad range of easily-learned skills in order to provide resources for the community. These are the worker-ants, the drone bees, the working class. If a skill requires only physical laborers that you could hire outside of a Home Depot at 5am to do on the cheap, these guys have it. They would absorb the profession of Miner (but without TNT), Farmer, and Smith (without chainmail). Their HP would be the highest of the Core Professions, and their experience would come from Building, Farming, Fishing, Logging, and Mining. They would have the greatest tool use abilities. Experience would be fairly swift, because laborers weren't exactly known for their higher mental pursuits. Your success in this field during this timeframe was mainly due to how much you sweated. (it wasn't until much later that advanced agricultural methods made farming a thinking-person's profession). As a profession, they get the broadest array of the most useful abilities, yet this is also tempered by the fact that MOST players will probably choose this profession, and there are no jaw-droppingly awesome abilities (except the ability to breed animals).

Merchant - Strictly speaking, this would not only be merchants, but more accurately, the Merchant Class, the step just below that of nobilitiy. They are the ones who had upward mobility within society, shop-owners, inventors, freemasons, engineers, estate managers, city planners, government officials, etc. Current-day analogue would be your white-collar workers. If a skill requires math, science, mercantile, or managerial abilities, this class gets to use it. They would absorb the current professions of Engineer, Mason, Merchant, and maybe a couple of Scribe abilities. They would be the ones who are able to make chainmail (due to its extremely complicated nature to make). Their profession HP would be the lowest. Their tools would be Moderate (better than Mystics, but less than Laborers). Their experience would come from Building, Crafting, Mining, and Skills. Their experience gain rate would be higher than Mystics, but lower than Laborers. Their biggest drawback would be that their skills are about as specialized as the Middle-Ages and Rennaisance got, but they also tended to be the richest as well, because so few people had the skills or resources that these people did.


SUMMARY:

I really enjoyed the read and the ideas. Finally someone who put some thought into a suggestion

You got my thumbs up, lets hope Kain enjoys this just as much!

 

[victim130]

BLAH BLAH BLAH you guys are all whining, sorry to say.

These ideas of his are probably still in the basic stage and I'm sure he doesn't expect Kain to implement them ALL or even in the fashion he laid out. Arguing about this is like saying a game in BETA testing is bad, well how can an unfinished piece of work be bad? Is your half-built house bad? No, its unfinished, unfinalized. So my suggestion to all of you is to keep criticizing to a constructive level.

(Mind you I skipped over a lot, at this point I'm just assuming its an all-out "NO I'M RIGHT" "NO, I'm RIGHT")

Regardless keep that in mind.

 

[MajorasMask]

-Snip-

First off, you don't need special building skills to make something that looks attractive. If the builders really wanted to build, and not PvP, then they'd go mine, get blocks, and build. They don't need skills. If they wanted to make more sophisticated, with hidden designs, such as lifts, traps and automatic farms, then sure, they'll need skills; but the main building aspect of Minecraft is still there, available for nearly anyone. Building skills just restrict what the Heroes plug-in has given us, not legit MC.

So.. when you say people look at the stuff WE build, and you see a lack of stuff we've built, then don't blame skills. Blame the lack of people who build shit with BLOCKS! Since Sanctum, there have been less architects and more PvPers. Go promote the construction of better looking towns if you want to see more epic things around the map..

I build tons of shit, with blocks, and not skills. And guess what, it looks great! I already have a design, made by me, ready to be implimented into a town! By the way, it uses no profession skills. Just blocks (though stuff like lifts/bridges/gates may be added for defence/convinence later).

IN AN EPIC CONCLUSION:
You don't need skills to build something amazing. Work together with other players to get things done. If you want fancy stuff in your house, call in a mason/engineer to hook you up! That's what multiplayer is all about.

 

[bluejack404]

If the builders really wanted to build, and not PvP, then they'd go mine, get blocks, and build.

You can't possibly be so blind as to believe that builders can mine, get blocks, and build without being hunted? I know that you've had a blast hunting down peaceful builders, so really. Don't feign naivete. You're smarter than that.

I used to get killed all the time doing my build-and-don't-PvP thing. Poor me, I got killed all the time. Now, I go out to mine in full diamond armor and specced and enchanted out the wazoo. People see me and walk the other way. I'm not the best PvPer on the server by far, but at least 80% of would-be murderers and thieves are scared away by my appearance alone.

I've been forced into PvP. So have all builders. Hell, even when we're building stuff for the server, we architects don't go out unless we're in full armor. That's pretty sad.

Building skills just enhance what the Heroes plug-in has given us, not legit MC.

Actually, legit MC allows all players to use pistons and repeaters, which would enhance what all builders are able to do. Building skills restrict legit MC, while they enhance Heroes. So I fixed the above quote for you, to make it correct.