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Suggestion Consolidate the 9 Professions into 3.

TheTXLibra

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Location
Somewhere, TX
Since Chief mentioned he wanted to improve some of the Non-PVP elements of the game, I would like to put forth this as a possible future direction for Heroes RPG.

SUGGESTION: Conslidate the 9 current Professions into a smaller number of professions with a more robust skillset each.

(if you already agree, you can skip the justifications and head straight to what I suggest as consolidations below. If you aren't convinced, read the justifications first.)

RPG JUSTIFICATION: Hyper-specialization is a fairly recent invention that has come from industrialization and later, the computer age. Heroes takes place in a relatively low-tech setting, with its analogue more likely being in the Middle Ages or very early Renaissance. In that timeframe, most non-combatants had to have very diverse skillsets to live. You made your own clothes, you built and fixed your own house, barn, etc. You raised your own food, you mended your own fences, etc, unless you were of a merchant class, in which case, you had as broad a skillset as possible for your type of chosen profession because you were more often than not the only one of your type for miles and miles, and the vast majority of inhabitants lived their whole lives never travelling more than 10-20 miles from the place where they were born (unless they went to war, of course).

PLAYER JUSTIFICATION: As it stands, the current profession system feels too restrictive. People don't want less ability just for the sake of having less, they want more. To draw a real-world analogue, if you go to one of those large pizza arcades, like Dave & Busters, or Coney Island, or Chuck-E-Cheese, etc, you don't want someone to tell you "Okay, thanks for visiting our arcade. Now, you must choose only one thing, and play that one thing from now on till your next visit (or shell out tons of money and lose your place in line). You can ONLY play the Go-Karts, or ONLY the Skee-ball games, or ONLY play the pool tables, or ONLY play air-hockey, or ONLY play the video games, and that's it. That's not nearly as much fun as an open-venue where you can ride on the Go-Karts for awhile, then go play a game of air-hockey, then maybe House of the Dead for awhile, etc. Back to Heroes itself, some of the Professions have an ability that would be cool to have, but everything else about it is so meh, almost no one bothers choosing it (ex. Pistons for Engineers). Simply put, it would just be more fun to players to have more choice and ability within their chosen profession. And more fun = more members with higher satisfaction. More members with higher satisfaction = more donations. More donations + more players = higher incentive to continue this wonderful project called Heroes.

MECHANICS JUSTIFICATION: Currently, if even one non-PVP ability breaks, or gets nerfed, the entirety of the profession that had that ability is usually completely screwed, because currently, it's often the only real ability they have worth having. For instance, if falsebook ICs break, engineers are pretty much useless till it gets fixed. If a chestshop exploit causes chestshops to be shut down for a few days till it can be patched, Merchants are screwed. If cauldrons breaks due to a plugin code, Alchemists are almost worthless (unless they happen to have blaze stuff and netherwart). etc... etc... Having a fewer number of professions with more robust abilities would mean that, even if one or two abilities were broken/nerfed/etc, players non-PVP options would still be relatively open to doing other things. Additionally, as far as balance goes, it's a lot easier to balance out 3-4 professions than 9+ professions.

So... with those justifications in mind, here is what I recommend for the consolidation of professions (the names of which could be whatever, I just picked these from novels):

Mystic - The theurges, witch-doctors, hedge-mages, witches, voodoun, midwives, wise women, wise ones, etc. Regardless of culture, these were the fringe element who made the potions, the battle-fetishes, the enchanted swords, the magic charms, and were often the healers of the local village as well. If a skill deals with brewing, cauldrons, enchanting, or non-class healing abilities like bandage, this class would receive that ability (this class would absorb Alchemist (without chainmail), Enchanter, and Scribe). They would have a Moderate number of hit points (higher than Merchants, but lower than Laborers), and the worst limitations on tools. Experience would come from Crafting, Farming, and Skills, to represent the closest RPG sources of what their professional skill would really benefit from. Experience progression would be Slow, to represent the fact that it is always the older, wiser members of this profession that have unlocked the greatest secrets of the Mystic World. Since this class is also the closest thing to a real-world chemist, they would have the TNT ability later on.

Laborer - These are the backbone of any community. For the most part, uneducated peasants with a necessarily broad range of easily-learned skills in order to provide resources for the community. These are the worker-ants, the drone bees, the working class. If a skill requires only physical laborers that you could hire outside of a Home Depot at 5am to do on the cheap, these guys have it. They would absorb the profession of Miner (but without TNT), Farmer, and Smith (without chainmail). Their HP would be the highest of the Core Professions, and their experience would come from Building, Farming, Fishing, Logging, and Mining. They would have the greatest tool use abilities. Experience would be fairly swift, because laborers weren't exactly known for their higher mental pursuits. Your success in this field during this timeframe was mainly due to how much you sweated. (it wasn't until much later that advanced agricultural methods made farming a thinking-person's profession). As a profession, they get the broadest array of the most useful abilities, yet this is also tempered by the fact that MOST players will probably choose this profession, and there are no jaw-droppingly awesome abilities (except the ability to breed animals).

Merchant - Strictly speaking, this would not only be merchants, but more accurately, the Merchant Class, the step just below that of nobilitiy. They are the ones who had upward mobility within society, shop-owners, inventors, freemasons, engineers, estate managers, city planners, government officials, etc. Current-day analogue would be your white-collar workers. If a skill requires math, science, mercantile, or managerial abilities, this class gets to use it. They would absorb the current professions of Engineer, Mason, Merchant, and maybe a couple of Scribe abilities. They would be the ones who are able to make chainmail (due to its extremely complicated nature to make). Their profession HP would be the lowest. Their tools would be Moderate (better than Mystics, but less than Laborers). Their experience would come from Building, Crafting, Mining, and Skills. Their experience gain rate would be higher than Mystics, but lower than Laborers. Their biggest drawback would be that their skills are about as specialized as the Middle-Ages and Rennaisance got, but they also tended to be the richest as well, because so few people had the skills or resources that these people did.


SUMMARY:

28ldsmq.jpg
 

MajorasMask

Ungodly
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Location
Earth
I like some of these ideas, but it's a bit of a stretch from what we have now. In addition, it would give players far too many abilities, which I thought was the prime reason professions were introduced. Also, with professions such as farmer and smith combined, townships would have it a lot easier because they'd need to require less people (instead of getting one farmer, one smith, one mason, one alchemist, one enchanter, one engineer, ect ect, they only need 3 people).

This also goes for players that wish to play independantly; it'll give them too many abilities. What happened in Zeal and Dragon was that player had to work together because many skills were restricted. This enhanced many communities within the server, and we saw far less personal regions/plots where people did things by themselves.
 

strongholdx

Moderator
Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Location
Earth
Libra you are a king. The ONLY problem I see with this is that Laborer has Highest HP, Best tools, and fastest exp gain. Seems a little unfair (unbalanced) compared to the other classes.
 

strongholdx

Moderator
Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Location
Earth
I like some of these ideas, but it's a bit of a stretch from what we have now. In addition, it would give players far too many abilities, which I thought was the prime reason professions were introduced. Also, with professions such as farmer and smith combined, townships would have it a lot easier because they'd need to require less people (instead of getting one farmer, one smith, one mason, one alchemist, one enchanter, one engineer, ect ect, they only need 3 people).
I see what you mean here

This also goes for players that wish to play independantly; it'll give them too many abilities. What happened in Zeal and Dragon was that player had to work together because many skills were restricted. This enhanced many communities within the server, and we saw far less personal regions/plots where people did things by themselves.
But here I disagree. Right now, players who play alone do not succeed, they're hunted and killed for the small amount of things they work so hard for, that on top of having few abilities, there isn't much of an incentive to work alone. Less abilities DO enhance communities but encourages an 'us and them' attitude, where there are communities who look at others as threat or hindrance rather than ally. It encourages wars and conflict (Which isn't always bad, but not always good). With this system, we'll see independent players who actually have the chance to succeed, who you can actually reckon with, rather than hunt at your own leisure. We'll see the emergence of a lot more 'Carmeops' style players who work as a lone wolfs but can pull off incredible heists.
 

Favith

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
I could see these changes being awesome IF players had to choose between a combat career or a profession career. Otherwise I agree with MajorasMask here in that you'd be making things far too easy on towns and soloers with a crafting skill setup that gives so much regardless of which of the three routes you pick.

Off topic: There was a map that required people to choose between combat or crafter specialization? That must have been awesome!! Talk about choices having meaning!
 

MajorasMask

Ungodly
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Location
Earth
But here I disagree. Right now, players who play alone do not succeed, they're hunted and killed for the small amount of things they work so hard for, that on top of having few abilities, there isn't much of an incentive to work alone. Less abilities DO enhance communities but encourages an 'us and them' attitude, where there are communities who look at others as threat or hindrance rather than ally. It encourages wars and conflict (Which isn't always bad, but not always good). With this system, we'll see independent players who actually have the chance to succeed, who you can actually reckon with, rather than hunt at your own leisure. We'll see the emergence of a lot more 'Carmeops' style players who work as a lone wolfs but can pull off incredible heists.

Errrrm. Isn't war something we want to promote (on the server, no IRL lol).

As for killing random players, this happened in Sanctum too, when there wasn't even the plug-in, and also Zeal (when there were not even any professions). It'll happen again.
 

bearcat99

Sir GrowlMeow
Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
I could see these changes being awesome IF players had to choose between a combat career or a profession career. Otherwise I agree with MajorasMask here in that you'd be making things far too easy on towns and soloers with a crafting skill setup that gives so much regardless of which of the three routes you pick.

Off topic: There was a map that required people to choose between combat or crafter specialization? That must have been awesome!! Talk about choices having meaning!

No. It didn't turn out that great. People who chose the crafting class were basically dead targets for pvp.
 

strongholdx

Moderator
Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Location
Earth
Errrrm. Isn't war something we want to promote (on the server, no IRL lol).
haha, regardless of if its 'encouraged' or not, they will still happen.


As for killing random players, this happened in Sanctum too, when there wasn't even the plug-in, and also Zeal (when there were not even any professions). It'll happen again.
You miss my point here, players who chose not to join a town find it rather impossible to survive in the face of other players. I tried this, it ended badly. You are never safe, there is about a 98% chance that a player will kill you on sight, and weeks of work can be lost in seconds, and more often than not, are. More skills will promote more solo playstyles without running as much risk of complete failure.

Compared to Sanctum, as you have, exploring wasn't a crime there, you could actually go places without the fear of dying. The other day I ran into a player who killed me while he was on a DHX run because he couldn't run the risk of me killing him. I wouldn't have hurt him, but the fact that you cant even go for a walk without feeling safe is sad. THAT did not happen in Sanctum, I could walk nearly 1000 blocks to DHX (With no non-PVP zones) without even thinking that I'd be attacked, now I cant even go outside without gearing up for multiple fights.
 

strongholdx

Moderator
Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Location
Earth
Malmenca makes a legit point for once lol. Malphugus could kill you faster with his fists than.... anything could kill you with a sword.
 

malmenca

Diamond
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Malphugus was both mean with the beatdowns, and the lavabuckets. He is my ideal crafter. He built, mined, and could handle himself and on top of it all, He didn't bitch
 

Zaspar

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Location
NY/MI
Herp derp, he was GrandMaster Crafter
Oh, the infamous GrandMaster titles... I remember dmil was the GrandMaster Warrior

Back to the original topic... what I think should happen is that we have "trees" like the combat classes have. Currently the starting Profession is Crafter, and only Crafter, branching out into a wide variety of specs. Unless another profession tree is going to be added, we should probably split the tree stemming out from Crafter into, say, three trees.
 

TheTXLibra

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Location
Somewhere, TX
I'll reply to this post first, as it addresses most of the concerns against the consolidation:

I like some of these ideas, but it's a bit of a stretch from what we have now.

I disagree. It's the same exact system we have now. Same game mechanics with only minimal administrative changes: renaming 3 classes, removing 6, migrating skills between the 3. Otherwise, no game code is actually changed. Only permission tables, and even then, only a few of them due to permissions grouping.

In addition, it would give players far too many abilities, which I thought was the prime reason professions were introduced.

I disagree. It would lump player abilities into one of three categories, the mystical, the mundane, and the specialist. More abilities = more fun. Even then, the proposed system still restricts you from roughly 2/3 of the abilities out there. To me, that's fine. There simply aren't enough "great" non-pvp abilities in Minecraft to merit having 9 Professions. Instead, to make it seem as if there were more abilities, normal abilities (like breed animals) gets split up into a half-dozen sub-abilities and split up between levels, but in reality, what you have is one "breed animals" ability.

The world doesn't move in the direction of progressively more and more restrictive, it moves more and more towards entropy, of freedom of movement, of choice, of ability. I would honestly prefer more of a Skyrim approach where any player could do ANY noncombat skill (but have to buy it with coin or experience). But that would require a huge code change, effectively scrapping the whole previous system. This consolidation makes use of the existing system, but in a much more open and free way that lets players do more of what they want to do.

In summary, more abilities isn't bad just because it's more abilities, and restricting abilities just for the sake of having them restricted doesn't make it fun.

Also, with professions such as farmer and smith combined, townships would have it a lot easier because they'd need to require less people (instead of getting one farmer, one smith, one mason, one alchemist, one enchanter, one engineer, ect ect, they only need 3 people).

I'm okay with townships having it a lot easier. At the moment, it's nearly fecking impossible to get anything done, because if you happen to be in the one blessed window of time where raiders aren't straight-up murdering you for your blocks, then there's just as much chance that the one guy in your town who can make lifts, signs, cauldron blocks, ICs, etc, may not be online, assuming you have one at all. It would be a LOT more fun if people with skills towns needed were MORE readily available, not less. Keep in mind the core-spirit of Minecraft: to build awesome stuff. As it stands, having 9 different heavily restricted professions causes too many shortages, too much frustration, and honestly, too much boredom within one's class due to lack of any other interesting ability. If you could remove those things, towns could grow faster, make better structures, and more fun events and community-building.

This also goes for players that wish to play independantly; it'll give them too many abilities.

I disagree. Currently, the server is so incredibly PVP-combat heavy that there is almost no way to survive, much less thrive, out in the wilds alone. And I get that. Chief WANTS it that way, he wants people to join cities instead of making little mole-holes. Since Professions have nothing to do with PVP though, if you live out in the wilds, and raiders eventually find your base location (and they will), you will be repeatedly visited and killed by organized groups. That's what drove me to join a city, and then drove me to join an even larger city for better protection. And I STILL get raided and killed on a near daily basis. Out in the wild I wouldn't last 5 minutes anymore. At least now in a city I make it a whole hour or two of gameplay sometimes before someone straight-up murders my face.

So, no. Consolidating professions will most certainly not end the appeal of towns. And if some crazy-ass hermit STILL wants to risk getting ganked every 5 minutes, just to be his or her own master, and build their little slice of heaven in the wilds, then G-d Bless 'em and their tenacious spirit. Let's not punish it by overly restricting what their profession can do, just for the sake of restricting it.


Okay, now to address some other concerns:

The ONLY problem I see with this is that Laborer has Highest HP, Best tools, and fastest exp gain.

Easily remedied with a few changes to the table. However, the reason I offered it in that way is because Laborers also get the most boring skillsets (even if they'll be the most widely used). Sure, you get the best HP, best tools, and best exp gain, but you'll never get to brew a potion, make piston-machines, or open up chest-shops.

However, if this is a large enough concern, my suggestion would be to switch it so that Merchants got the best tools (due to their money and connections) and Laborers got Moderate tools. That would adjust the chart to look like this...

fdsig7.jpg
 
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