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Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
@samdiggity - i've given you countless chances.

As stated in several areas and announcements, the path moving forward is re-balancing the PVE RPG progression and then we're going to re-add in PVP objective gameplay.

This isn't what you want, that's fine - it doesn't have to be. We're pushing forward with it because the only current players who are supporting the server, actively staffing it and helping keep it alive are those who are interested in community based content, not mindless PVP.

I said I was more than happy making a pvp ruleset server based on what the "pvp community" wanted. You said it was my fault for not having more direction with that and after 7+ years of hosting Herocraft, I'm fully accountable for your block-game fun.

You've proven you just want to act childish and lay blame. I'm done wasting energy on you.
Go away, try a different community.
 

j2gay

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
May 24, 2012
Location
MI
Hello heroctafters. Long time no post. For those of you who are too new to remember me, I have been here for six years. While I seldom log in these days, I do still creep around the forums like a crazy HC stalker.

What I am seeing in this thread is that there are still some people who care enough about this server, both staff and players, to make a rebirth possible. For that to happen though you will need to stop blaming each other and accept responsibility for your role in the decline.

We cannot control others actions, but we can control how we react to others. Instead of looking for what everyone else did wrong ask yourself what you could have done better to keep the server alive.

For any system to thrive you need to strike a balance between differing personalities. You need builders to build towns, you need PVE players to farm mobs. You need Crafters and farmers to keep everyone fed and equipped. However, in order to keep them all interested you need PVP players to provide a sense of danger, and create incentives for the other player types to band together. Nothing brings people together like having something to fight against.

Every major loss of players on HC has been precipitated by a shift in the system that created an inbalace between these different groups. Despite declarations that Kainzo never listened to the community before, most of the shifts that have led to the decline of the server were made in response to demands from the community.

People in general tend to demand what they want right now, without regard to the long term effects. You may want to eat a donut right now, but you likely do not want to get fat, which is the inevitable result of continually eating donuts. When the PVP oriented players demanded TNT and war break regions, they where thinking only about the fun they would have right then in the moment raiding towns and bases. They did not think about the fact that such a system removes the incentive for build oriented players to build towns and bases in the first place(dispite warnings from
many of us who have lived in the world and understand human behavior). Short term fun long term disaster.

When in response to this move PVE oriented players asked for a separate map to build on, they thought only of the immediate safety from TNT and bullyish PVP. They did not think about the fact that struggling against the PVP crews, and helping protect new players from them, was part of the reason many of their towns people logged in every day(despite similar warnings from similar people). In this case short term pleasure, long term loss of purpose.

These are only two examples of a narrative that has played out on HC time and time again.
The fact is that you cannot give everyone what they want all, of for that matter even some of the time. If you make PVP and raiding too easy, you will limit the incentive for building oriented players to stay on the server, or even to play as a builder if they do stay, as people tend to move towards the easiest path to success. This will lead to a lack of targets for PVP. Likewise if PVP is too difficult, few will attempt it and you will lose the sense of danger and triumph associated with building a successful town. You need to do your best to create a system where all playstyles are equally viable, and no playstyle has a distinct or intentional upper hand.

Just as everything in life is a trade off, so too should it be in the game. For instance: a plug-in that allows players to have a diminishing likelihood of keeping their equipment on death depending on the vanilla xp level they have might seem like a slight against PVP players because they get less loot. However, if such a system encourges more players to leave the safety of their bases the end result will be more PVP, which will benefit PVP players in the form of more PVP and also benefit the less PVP oriented players in the form of having experiences and seeing parts of the server they may not have seen if they never left their base to begin with. Additionally, the increased above world activity will make the server feel busier and less desolate.

A system that allows towns to be impenetrable except through subterfuge or flaws in the design/build might seem like a deterrent to PVP because raiding those towns will be more challenging and less rewarding. It is however preferable to a server where no one bothers to build a town in the first place.

The end goal should be to create a system where everyone gives something, and everyone gets something.

I have been on this server long enough to see it somewhat balanced, PVP heavy, and PVE heavy. Somewhat balanced had it's issues, but it had a much larger, more vibrant, and less toxic player base than either of the other two.

I have a lot more to say on this subject should anyone wish to hear it.
 

lokanxx

TNT
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Location
Texas
some good points, but we need to start some were and at least get some people playing and buying stuff to pay staff to implement both pvp and pve changes. i like what iv seen so far with what they have implemented, but its not a bad idea to keep both in mind for the future.
 

pure_autism

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Lets face it, the Herocraft we all love and have extremely fond memories of can never exist again. We had a community that somehow worked so fucking perfectly. It was a tight nit group of veterans that were extremely dedicated to the server, others came and went but still added to the experience. I think the coolest thing was that we pretty much knew the person we were fighting most of the time, most of the veterans players had spoken in teamspeak a bajillion times even if they weren't associated directly, we knew eachothers fighting styles so PVP was extra interesting. The shit talk was perfect, we'd come on each day hoping to gain a edge on whatever town had it been pissing us off recently. Not to mention all the things minecraft allowed because of building, it really was a great RPG experience. I can remember sitting in class literally just thinking about Herocraft, blowing off homework, fuck everything... HC. It was a lifestyle, most of us lived it, we fuckin chose it. That community has grown older now, some were older, some younger but a good amount of us I'd say were 13-15 in the servers prime. If HC somehow became great again overnight, every old player you can imagine was on, pvp was perfect... I truly think I'd fuck up my life. HC PVP was a fucking addiction, we were all adrenaline junkies and there is no lying, I don't think I will ever forget it. Gonna be fucking 80 in my death bed thinkin bout how kains ass fucked up Hc but gj on the crypto investing proud to see this site still up.
someone tell me why I'm crying in a minecraft thread rn
 

Wryl

TNT
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
I think toxicity in a community is needed .
Without toxicity it would be boring , we need more people so there would be more fights and an actual purpose .
What do I mean by purpose ? By purpose i mean getting better gear , levelling up so you can fight against your enemies .
Recruiting people so your enemies don't get you outnumbered . I am the first necro that become 50 level and i actually don't see any purpose to do anything else because i do not have an enemy . If i had an enemy i would probably recruit people , help levelling those people and fight .
Too bad tho we no longer can declare a war on towns unlike kingdoms and that is why i liked kingdoms . Toxicity create some foes but it also allows others to group and kill their foes so you will have a group of your own and bunch of enemies that you will try to banish them from their own lands .
This requires more people and a war plugin .


Thanks for reading .
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Guess I can throw my 2 cents in as well. Little late to the party, but then again I never was on time. Also using my phone so, mistakes will be made.

When I was most active as a player, I hated dying. Not because I disliked PvP, mostly because it was frustrating. But in the best ways. Trying to find a way to escape or desperately trying to fight back was exhilarating, only to usually end up dead. I remember getting swarmed by 5 people at word border whole leveling Necromancer at a whopping level 8. Threw out a bone spear, a decay, and promptly had my shit pushed in. I was furious, I wanted revenge, and it drove my energy to keep playing and level more.

I was so bad at PvP and still didn’t care. Finding randoms in the world or being raided, doing my best to fight back (usually after storing goods in LWC of course). The fear of loss and death was the best part of the game. Towns felt safe until someone got in. The wild was dangerous as hell even at max level. Gold actually meant something.

I feel like PvE has bloated too big for PvP or anyone without those endless hours to spend on the game. Growing for gear, attributes, custom items all made it slower to PvP. If you didn’t have that Sharpness X sword you were gimping yourself. But at the same time, is it worth risking your Sharpness X sword in a fight? It’s a loop of needing the best gear but then not wanting to lose it because it’s such a grind to get it.

As for how I felt staff were treated, it’s a mixed bag. I had a lot of life issues that kinda fucked my time, energy, and tolerance for smack talk, so it’s not a very fair view on it. I do agree that it would feel like people were given a job and not fully trusted. I asked for the Twitter, Tumblr, and YouTube logins a dozen times and never got them, so I never bothered doing anything because I couldn’t.

Tl;dr:
PvE has bloated. PvP needs to be fast and give the world a sense of fear. Trust people and don’t leave blurry lines for jobs.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
I think toxicity in a community is needed .
Without toxicity it would be boring , we need more people so there would be more fights and an actual purpose .
What do I mean by purpose ? By purpose i mean getting better gear , levelling up so you can fight against your enemies .
Recruiting people so your enemies don't get you outnumbered . I am the first necro that become 50 level and i actually don't see any purpose to do anything else because i do not have an enemy . If i had an enemy i would probably recruit people , help levelling those people and fight .
Too bad tho we no longer can declare a war on towns unlike kingdoms and that is why i liked kingdoms . Toxicity create some foes but it also allows others to group and kill their foes so you will have a group of your own and bunch of enemies that you will try to banish them from their own lands .
This requires more people and a war plugin .


Thanks for reading .
You're confusing toxicity with conflict. Toxicity doesnt benefit anyone and is self-destructive.
 

pure_autism

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
You're confusing toxicity with conflict. Toxicity doesnt benefit anyone and is self-destructive.
Just saying, I'm 10 times more likely to want to kill a player if they talk mad shit. Where do you think conflict and rivalries come from, towns' admiration and respect for how nice other towns are?
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Just saying, I'm 10 times more likely to want to kill a player if they talk mad shit. Where do you think conflict and rivalries come from, towns' admiration and respect for how nice other towns are?
Conflict comes from the name... owning things others cant, others wanting those things. Toxicity is really different... it can make you more inclined to kill someone if they trash talk, but that is a really weak way of generating conflict intra-player.
 

Air_Restraint

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Conflict comes from the name... owning things others cant, others wanting those things. Toxicity is really different... it can make you more inclined to kill someone if they trash talk, but that is a really weak way of generating conflict intra-player.
It really isn't. There is an extent to the trash talk, I never really took it all that far. Very FEW people have I actually trash talked on HC that was serious. Majority of the trash talk I did or received, I viewed as banter. Not all people will look at that way, but that's how I viewed it. People who are competitive tend to banter or trash talk in a non friendly way. I find nothing wrong with either. It generates an interest and the people who lost now want to get better and make sure they want to win next time. You can say it a million times that the toxic community is what killed the server, (although it isn't stated here, it's still obvious that's how you feel) is completely false. You're way too tunnel visioned on this. EVERY GAME HAS SOME SORT OF TOXICITY. Have you seen the League of Legends community? Have you seen the Overwatch community? Although that's much much much bigger than this, their games will not be known for dying because of toxicity, and they are probably the most toxic games atm. No game in history will be known for that. Neither will Herocraft. So I would have to disagree that it's a "weak" way of generating conflict.

You have had many people state what the problems were. Just like LordZelkova did up there, a former admin.
 
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LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
It really isn't. There is an extent to the trash talk, I never really took it all that far. Very FEW people have I actually trash talked on HC that was serious. Majority of the trash talk I did or received, I viewed as banter. Not all people will look at that way, but that's how I viewed it. People who are competitive tend to banter or trash talk in a non friendly way. I find nothing wrong with either. It generates an interest and the people who lost now want to get better and make sure they want to win next time. You can say it a million times that the toxic community is what killed the server, (although it isn't stated here, it's still obvious that's how you feel) is completely false. You're way too tunnel visioned on this. EVERY GAME HAS SOME SORT OF TOXICITY. Have you seen the League of Legends community? Have you seen the Overwatch community? Although that's much much much smaller than this, their games will not be known for dying because of toxicity, and they are probably the most toxic games atm. No game in history will be known for that. Neither will Herocraft. So I would have to disagree that it's a "weak" way of generating conflict.

You have had many people state what the problems were. Just like LordZelkova did up there, a former admin.
These are literal reasons I stayed around and kept PvPing when I could.

Getting told you “you suck” really just made me want to prove em wrong and kick THEIR ass instead. I guess not everyone takes it the same way, but it’s mad effective when they do.
 

Air_Restraint

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
These are literal reasons I stayed around and kept PvPing when I could.

Getting told you “you suck” really just made me want to prove em wrong and kick THEIR ass instead. I guess not everyone takes it the same way, but it’s mad effective when they do.
Yeah, and Kainzo will just throw a friendly rating at you because you gave your opinion in a nice way and probably just ignored/didn't care. And I agree with you about not getting stuff for staff when asked. I was leading the event team when I was mod. Accepted apps and everything. But couldn't get perms on event to do anything. Asked so many times. He had more "important" things to deal with that were literally irrelevant or stuff that just didn't help the server.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Yeah, and Kainzo will just throw a friendly rating at you because you gave your opinion in a nice way and probably just ignored/didn't care. And I agree with you about not getting stuff for staff when asked. I was leading the event team when I was mod. Accepted apps and everything. But couldn't get perms on event to do anything. Asked so many times. He had more "important" things to deal with that were literally irrelevant or stuff that just didn't help the server.
I've stated very clearly what our vision is for Herocraft and how we're moving forward. I've delegated out the tools, rights and responsibility to those working on it because in the past segmentation was a big problem.

You've more than stated your opinion and disdain for me and the server. I hear you, you've been heard. Just because the solution and outcome isnt in your favor, doesn't mean its not been acknowledged.

If you want to live in the past and be sour - so be it, but do so quietly.
 

Air_Restraint

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
I've stated very clearly what our vision is for Herocraft and how we're moving forward. I've delegated out the tools, rights and responsibility to those working on it because in the past segmentation was a big problem.

You've more than stated your opinion and disdain for me and the server. I hear you, you've been heard. Just because the solution and outcome isnt in your favor, doesn't mean its not been acknowledged.

If you want to live in the past and be sour - so be it, but do so quietly.
The only reason I'm still replying at this point and for the couple of past comments is because what you're stating is false. Aka you keep going on about toxicity. When it really isn't a problem.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
That's your opinion, you can have it.
I don’t think he’s here to bash you or the server. I don’t think anyone would be here to discuss this if they didn’t care at least a little.

What you need to see is that conflict and smack talk and danger are all highly valid and drawing parts of the game. Grinding annoying bosses for the best gear just isn’t fun with the mechanics we have.

Protecting your city, your builders, or raiding others is what keeps people around. I didn’t play because I could dig up some diamonds and gold, i stayed because I wanted to build something and then do my best to defend it.

Did people get Toxic? Definitely.
But there’s also a needed level of infighting to engage players and drive agency.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

cat8898

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Just a quick two cents on whats been going down for the past couple of days on this thread.

The PVP player base and kainzo have literally been going back and forth like this since after haven(I think is the map after bastion.) It always goes like this, "The server isnt like it used to be blah blah." and the response to that is always "Ok here are the tools makes what you want out of them." This always falls through, the back and forth is never worth the effort put in from both sides. Neither the PVP player base nor kainzo are willing to work together to make things better. Although in my opinion I think saying "Oh I'll give you guys the tools to mold your own hardcore pvp server!" is just the wrong way to work with your community. I feel like the people with "Passion" for herocraft is mostly burnt up over the years and won't actually move words into action myself included. I often ask myself why I come back to post knowing that things wont magically get better like I hope they would. Don't get me wrong if herocraft managed to build up a solid player base again I would most definitely come back and play the game, even if it wasn't ENTIRELY pvp as long as the product is good.

I feel like I could be wrong about a lot of shit up there, but it's whatever probably going back to not posting for a bit.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Location
Washington
I’ve played on and off since the map after Bastion, Haven I think it was. Shit, that’s like 5 years? Maybe more.
I have a thousand good memories of that map. Like a lot of the old timers around here, I began to lose interest as my friends and enemies alike left and pvp stagnated. I agree with what Sam and a bunch of others have said so far so I’m not gonna restate that.

Occasionally I find myself lurking on the HC forumns just to see how things are going...
I think the reason all of us are even spending time talking about it was that in its prime, herocraft was an awesome adrenaline rush and could get your heart pumping like few other rpgs.

I have the same vision as so many others but I don’t know how to go about acting on it.

I always thought of herocraft as tough love, and survival of the fittest. I sucked when I joined and died almost constantly, but I was tenacious and those that made it through stayed, like myself.

The last couple maps, frankly, were for total pussies. There was nothing hardcore about them. In my opinion that’s what made HC awesome. The fact building, surviving, making something halfway decent was DIFFICULT. And took a LONG time. These elements also force teamwork.

The problem is that a healthy number of players is needed to make the system I want actually work like it’s supposed to. If we could like, brainstorm a framework not theoretical shit and then agree on it, a lot of people would show up to try it out.

All the little cliques of gamers that made HC are still out there, if you attract them back they’ll come.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
This thread has a lot of posts but I did read all of them. I'm surprised to see some of the people who posted but even I still stalk the forum so its not that odd.

The problem with wanting things to go back to how they were is much of what addicted us to HC in the first place was socially constructed. It was never the systems in place that kept us here it was the people. In HC's golden age, which I would argue was the Zeal/Dragongarde/Bastion maps, you could really be anything. You could be the villain, you could be a thief, you could be a merchant, it didnt matter. Im not talking about the classes either im talking styles of gameplay.

All I wanted to do was build buildings and have a huge town. This was only fun because I was in constant danger of PVP. If I just wanted to build stuff I could go play creative. If I only wanted to roleplay I would kill mysel- I mean go play a different game. Instead I just played HC because it had it all.

I took a long haitus after the Haven map started. When I came back the township system was in place and fixed a ton of problems we complained about. There were more quality of life choices than you could count. So why is it dying? Its because pve and pvp styles of game are so polarized. People stopped making friends and doing the politics thing. They just make/join a town and kill anything that moves that isnt in their town. All of the chat revolved around pvp is just toxic. Its not the same as it was before.

It only worked before because its what the players wanted. We made HC the RPG we wanted to play and used the tools given to us to make it happen. The people playing today are different. They want different things. Thats why even in the face of better plugins, tools, and improvements its not as good as we remember. Hate me for it all you want but I'm blaming this one on the playerbase.
 
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