Suggestion [Class] Pacifist Class

[robertlim1]

northeaster345

I don't see how people in this new class of mine would be unable to do dungeons. I'm simply cutting them out of PvP completely. They can still trade (influence the economy), RP (interact with the community), mine for resources (providing resources to both their town and the economy in general) and kill mobs (self defense, resources). The only thing they can't do is kill or be killed by other players through direct means (I've listed ways of killing PvP-proof players in my post above). They are not invincible. It'll be like playing on a server with PvP turned off for that particular person. A well designed dungeon with mobs, fire traps, bottomless pits etc should be as fun for a non-PvP class as it is for a PvP class. I don't see any way a non-PvP class can't PvE.

Not too sure what DoD is, but. xD

I understand that it might seem harsh to lump everyone into it, but the whole, general attitude of the server towards bullying is 'deal with it'. Look through the thread. Heck, look at your own posts. You 'dealt with it', didn't you? My point is that we shouldn't need to 'deal with it' simply because people are abusing the 'hardcore' theme of the server to have fun at other people's expense.

As I've stated several times in the thread, I have nothing against PvP in general. It's just that PvP is the most direct and effective way of griefing someone, hence my focus on it. Griefing is bannable. Why not bullying? A little teasing is fine, but when you have people outright swearing to make your life on the server a complete hell, 'never going to let you have any fun on this server', 'hunt you forever', in real life cops tend to get involved. Yet you take screenies to mods and they go, "Well, nothing in the rules against that. Good luck buddy."

Again, my judgement on the karma system is reserved until I actually see the list of rewards and punishments for karma. If the punishments are more or less getting a slap on the wrist and an affectionate 'you bad boy you', well. I guess the server just isn't right for me.

Kainzo mentioned in his post that we should have a choice about how we play. There isn't. And that's what this thread was created for.

Mmmm...if the karma system add a reward to your head everytime you bully a low level noob and broadcasts your name in the chat with a reward next to it enticing people to kill you maybe it will solve the issue.

Eg. XYZ kill ABC. XYZ gain 1o karma. Reward increase by XXX amount
Chat Box: XYZ is now hunted. Kill him for XXX amount

Then all the high level people form groups to kill him. Maybe then he will have a taste of how it feels like to be hunted.

 

[northeaster345]

This is true. I really, REALLY enjoy the Heroes plugin. The classes are nicely made, fairly balanced, and any imbalances are discovered and righted quickly. There's a wide variety, with a reasonable cost for switching. The entire system is great, and is one of the main reasons I'm still here.

But if the price of using these features is to suffer, if I'm being punished because I'm not as good as the others, I'm willing to give it up. 'Cause there's no way I can have fun if I'm not allowed to by those with more power than I.

As of the moment, I'm willing to suspend all talk of removing PvP until the karma system comes out and I can see for myself the impact it will have on the server. Of course, that will be a LONG while. According to the timer it'll be almost a month before the new level cap and class revamps hit. Who knows how long after THAT the Karma system will take to come. The question then is how long I can hold out on this server without ragequitting. xD

I mean yeah, there's a bunch of assholes out there on this server, I don't like it either, and I'm not saying I don't kill people, and that I'm an angel. I agree that there's a problem with people abusing lower leveled players, but ganking is normal, and bullying should not be.

If you want to be pvp free, you can run or join a strong town, or you can get a supporter plot, or you can buy a spawn plot. If you can't afford to be a supporter, there are some people out there who are willing to trade for coin, keep it out T chat, but you can find people.

If you're looking for an example, Jonsoon, is not a pvper at all, but he never gets ganked, because he's always at spawn, or building in his town pretty much. And that's how he plays this server.

 

[northeaster345]

Mmmm...if the karma system add a reward to your head everytime you bully a low level noob and broadcasts your name in the chat with a reward next to it enticing people to kill you maybe it will solve the issue.

Eg. XYZ kill ABC. XYZ gain 1o karma. Reward increase by XXX amount
Chat Box: XYZ is now hunted. Kill him for XXX amount

Then all the high level people form groups to kill him. Maybe then he will have a taste of how it feels like to be hunted.

That's part of how it will work.

 

[kirinelf]

If you want to be pvp free, you can run or join a strong town, or you can get a supporter plot, or you can buy a spawn plot. If you can't afford to be a supporter, there are some people out there who are willing to trade for coin, keep it out T chat, but you can find people.

If you're looking for an example, Jonsoon, is not a pvper at all, but he never gets ganked, because he's always at spawn, or building in his town pretty much. And that's how he plays this server.

Running doesn't work. xD Take it from someone who tried. A lot. Not even Jump works, which is weird since it works fine in PvE. Either NoCheat or lag really hates me.

Don't you mean 'in' /t? xD I was contemplating either scraping up some spare funds for donating or to buy a donation, but I wanted to see if it was worth it before I do so. Still thinking. The karma system might be the deciding factor for me.

In any case, things might change if I find a town that I like and will have me. Maybe not by much since I won't have protection out of the town, but at least I'll have someone to fall back on besides my fellow low levels in my guild.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I've only read bits and pieces of this thread, and every time I stop to read more I basically just want to kill myself.

I want to say that regardless of whatever happens in the future, a PLAYER CLASS that is designed to protect players that do not wish to participate in PVP is absolutely ridiculous, and should never, ever be implemented. If you're going to protect noobs--do it in a different manner. Do not make a class that is designed to make it happen.

With that said,
----
Here's the deal kirinelf. You're new to the server. That's cool. New players are great to have. They breathe life into the server and change things up a bit for the vets. Maybe we'll be friends, maybe we'll be enemies, maybe you're just another guy that I never ever see. You find your enjoyment in the server, and I find mine. This is how it works for every player.

Some players like to build.
Some players like to fight other players of equal skill. (Standard PVP)
Some players like to hunt noobs for the satisfaction of superiority (Noob Ganking - PVP)
Some players just like to socialize with other players.
Some players like to explore worlds created by other people.
And maybe, just maybe, some players like to pve the same mobs in the same way over and over just because they are a leveling addict.
Who's to say? And who's to say that list isn't much, much larger than I've made it.

I'm not Kainzo, so I can't say what Kainzo really wants Herocraft to be focused on. Maybe he wants it all, maybe he'd like to see some things go. But from what I can see, Herocraft has a strong focus on Socializing, Building, and PVP. But most of all, it seems to be trying to create a realistic, immersive world--much akin to your standard MMORPG. I like this. I like realism, and I like immersion. Even when all I do is sit in Teamspeak all day with a bunch of guys that scream at the top of their lungs while they gank other players, I like immersion.

What you want, isn't immersive. There is no safety for the weak. The weak fall. The weak die. The weak suffer. Those that don't want to be weak, seek strength. They hone and train their skills, they improve their abilities in an effort to do nothing more than defend themselves. Those who want to live, become strong. Those that don't, they die.

There are plenty of noobs that play on this server every day that I've never seen, heard, or killed. They get by without ever showing up on anyone's radar. (I'm speaking figuratively here gentlemen.) And on the other hand, there are plenty of noobs that I've seen get camped all day, every day, every week.

There are already several tools that players have to protect themselves.
* You could Talk with players, make some friends. Maybe you'll find someone that's good at pvp that wants to help you out and keep you safe.
* Maybe you'll join a town and you can hide within your city walls for the duration of your stay here.
* Maybe you'll forge alliances with certain players that allow you safety and/or protection when they are arround.
* Maybe you'll bide your time, save up money, and simply pay people not to kill you. Or perhaps pay others to defend you.
* Maybe you'll bite the bullet, start pvping, and become the best <insert class here> on the server.

And really, that's just the tip of the iceburg. This isn't a themepark--you aren't here for a free ride, and nor are you getting one. You're participating in a living breathing online world, and you need to start treating it like one.

So, in closing, you just need to

Spoiler

get good

 

[Kwong050]

This is a great idea!

 

[XenZan]

or you can get a supporter plot

The op shows an example of why even this doesn't work. You'll just be surrounded until you leave or attacked through walls.

Again northeaster, I'm not trying to say you're "one of those" players, or even that you support it or whatever. It's not the pvp that we have a problem with, it's the bullying. Even the ganking, to a lesser extent, is not the ultimate issue I have with this server. It's unnecessary, but not the root of the problem. The ganking is more just a way for others to tell me how to play the server. The gankers can play however they want, and the gankees either get ganked or have to live like skulking shadows and not interact with other players at all. By every account of people's "solutions" to these problems, live in a hole (or a 10x10 town plot that costs rent and takes away building freedom), don't talk in chats, don't leave spawn, etc, I'm being told how to play the server by someone who is ligher level than me.

The real problem isn't even being killed 5-6 times each day by the same person tracking you down or following you through each world or waiting around outside your reion for 30 minutes in hopes that you'll come out. It's the attitude and atmosphere it brings with it.

You're new to the server. That's cool. New players are great to have. They breathe life into the server and change things up a bit for the vets.

I'm not sure I can make much of what you said seriously, since once again, it just follows the general pvp'er code of I can kill you so you might as well just die, but again, that's not the major issue here. The part of your post that I quoted is laughable. New players are not welcomed on this server. All new players are "weak" and remain that way for many, many weeks in most cases. Your attitude alienates new players and definitely does not encourage people to stick around.

You'll find your enjoyment on the server, and that's fine by me. But when a player's enjoyment on the server is to cause other players to not enjoy it, there's a problem. When it gets bad enough to where, if it weren't a video game, it would be punishable by law, there's a problem. Again, there's a difference between pvp/pvp'ers having fun by pvping (and even ganking) and harassment. And the attitude of a majority of the (known) server to dismiss it, say "deal with it", say "l2p", etc, is not the solution.

The 'future' implementation of te karma system is just a convenient excuse for people right now, but there's always something. I guess we'll just have to wait and see just whether or not this karma system will have any measurable effect. If it does, I'll be thankful, and if not, they'll find something else to try and pacify us with.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I was stuck at my grandparents house for a bit, so I decided to sit around and read this thread while I had nothing better to do.

I still wanted to die while reading it, but it's not to say that people didn't have very valid thoughts / opinions on the matter.

When you posted this,

Once, I hid myself behind some dirt blocks and tried to start typing a message in chat asking if they were friendly. Didn't even get halfway through the sentence when they broke through the dirt and killed me.

It rang true with me a little bit. My friend and I had a similar situation happen to us when we were new. We had no idea that Herocraft was so PVP oriented, and we weren't prepared for any and all players to be "out to get us". We learned rather quickly, and changed our gameplay strategy accordingly, but it kind of sucked to find out in that sort of manner. It isn't a very good experience for anyone, and it's unfortunate that it is indeed the guaranteed result when meeting other players right now. There's no sense of "friendliness" or even neutrality between players. If you see another player outside of spawn, he is an enemy--no question about it.

However, I think this will actually be alleviated a bit by the Karma system. It will take a week or so for everyone's Karma to settle in, but once it does, you'll be able to tell immediately whether or not another player will attack you based on the color of their name. The karma of a player is offset by the player's pvp habits, and thus, should signify to you (and everyone else) that he does not typically gank lower levels.

So when seeing a "blue" player, you will know that they aren't necessarily a bad guy. You would think, "Hey! This guy is a good guy. He might be my friend. Cool." Maybe you'll shout at him, ask him what's up, maybe group together and go be noobs somewhere. Maybe you'll just move on with your life. There isn't really an impending sense of doom when meeting these players.

But when seeing a "red" player, there will be no need to communicate or reason, you will simply need to run as fast as you can without ever looking back, because they are going to kill you, and they are going to do it quick.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'm not sure I can make much of what you said seriously, since once again, it just follows the general pvp'er code of I can kill you so you might as well just die, but again, that's not the major issue here. The part of your post that I quoted is laughable. New players are not welcomed on this server. All new players are "weak" and remain that way for many, many weeks in most cases. Your attitude alienates new players and definitely does not encourage people to stick around.

I am not even that old of a Herocraft player. I have only been playing for like, 6 months. I was weak, and I got royally shit on for the first week of playing on Herocraft. And for a good month or two after that, I was still really bad at pvp. I'd never even attempted to pvp on Minecraft before HC, and I really didn't have a grasp on the mechanics or the classes themselves.

And you know what? I'm not even a PVP kind of guy. In most games, I prefer the PVE route. I like grouping, exploring, and just having fun with a group of people to kill AI controlled mobs. I don't play that many PVP games. Yet, for some reason, I stuck it out. Somewhere in the middle of it all I really enjoyed my experience on Herocraft. Maybe that was due to heroes, maybe it was the people I met, or maybe it was just Minecraft itself. I enjoyed leveling new classes (despite the lack of real pve content on HC) and I enjoyed talking with my fellow players. I found fun things to do, and I spent my every day completing them. I found a group to call home, and I settled in. I honed my skills and started becoming a bigger player in the PVP scene.

Maybe my actions do alleniate noobs. Maybe I'm causing players to quit. And when I think that, I can't help but laugh a little, because Entei, a player within an enemy town, once said that the "fun" of my town comes at the expense of "thousands of players each week". A truly ludicrous statement, but one that does not have at least a tiny bit of merit. But that's just the way it is. That's how the server's players have been conditioned. I'm not arguing that something needs to be changed, but I definitely don't think that implementing a class to "protect non-pvpers" is the solution that Herocraft needs.

You'll find your enjoyment on the server, and that's fine by me. But when a player's enjoyment on the server is to cause other players to not enjoy it, there's a problem. When it gets bad enough to where, if it weren't a video game, it would be punishable by law, there's a problem. Again, there's a difference between pvp/pvp'ers having fun by pvping (and even ganking) and harassment. And the attitude of a majority of the (known) server to dismiss it, say "deal with it", say "l2p", etc, is not the solution.

Unfortunately, any competitive video game brings out this nature. The winner's fun comes at the expense of the loser. Sure, it's possible for both sides to enjoy themselves, but anyone who has ever truly played PVP oriented games before will tell you that it doesn't work that way.

Even still, we these games thrive--Herocraft thrives. Maybe there isn't room for both "non pvpers" and "pvpers" on this server, but I think there is. And I think it can be accomplished without throwing down a giant forcefield between the two groups, as kirinelf is asking. And quite frankly, it's just not my position to care. I dealt with the exact same shit that all noobs deal with, and I dealt with it a mere 6 months ago. I didn't quit, I didn't cry, and I moved on. It's hard for me to sympathize when they aren't taking the same steps I did to achieve enjoyment on this server.

The 'future' implementation of te karma system is just a convenient excuse for people right now, but there's always something. I guess we'll just have to wait and see just whether or not this karma system will have any measurable effect. If it does, I'll be thankful, and if not, they'll find something else to try and pacify us with.

No doubt, it is a convenient excuse. Who knows when it will get here or how successful it will be. But then again, you could say the same for this proposed "class" that kirinelf is suggesting. With any changes that come, there will be delays, and there will be issues. People want everything to be perfect, they want it to be perfect from the get-go, and they want it to be perfect now. This is not how the world works.

The best thing you, or anyone else can do, is bide your time and hope for the best.

 

[XenZan]

So when seeing a "blue" player, you will know that they aren't necessarily a bad guy. You would think, "Hey! This guy is a good guy. He might be my friend. Cool." Maybe you'll shout at him, ask him what's up, maybe group together and go be noobs somewhere. Maybe you'll just move on with your life. There isn't really an impending sense of doom when meeting these players.

But when seeing a "red" player, there will be no need to communicate or reason, you will simply need to run as fast as you can without ever looking back, because they are going to kill you, and they are going to do it quick.

I agree with this in a general sense. My concern comes with how easy/difficult it will or won't be to change your perceived alignment. If all you need to do to show up as a blue, good guy is kill off a handful of "evils" then it won't accomplish anything. This isn't a thread about the nature of the karma system, so I won't go on a tangent too much, but I really hope there's a great deal of control over just how people flop alignments. I.E. killing anyone not evil immediately turns you evil, or something (doesn't have to be extreme, just an example). I just worry about how easily people will use the blue colored name to trick people and then just go "plant some flowers" or something to regain their blue color. Just my thoughts on that.

I am not even that old of a Herocraft player. I have only been playing for like, 6 months. I was weak, and I got royally shit on for the first week of playing on Herocraft. And for a good month or two after that, I was still really bad at pvp. I'd never even attempted to pvp on Minecraft before HC, and I really didn't have a grasp on the mechanics or the classes themselves.

And you know what? I'm not even a PVP kind of guy.

Six months is a great deal of time to learn the system (and obviously level up). A lot of problems happen to people who've newly joined, even within the first day. When your first impression of the community is that "everyone's out to get you" it can be disappointing, sure, but manageable. When your first impression of the community is that everyone's a bully and goes out of their way to make sure you have no fun, it's a different story.

And I don't buy that. You're clearly a PVP guy, at least on HC. You're very good at it and you know it, as is evidenced by the number of people killed by you frequently. I'm not condemning you because you're good at pvp, or because you enjoy it. Please don't mistake this as hostility, I'm just pointing out what I see from my sidelines playing.

Maybe my actions do alleniate noobs. Maybe I'm causing players to quit. And when I think that, I can't help but laugh a little, because Entei, a player within an enemy town, once said that the "fun" of my town comes at the expense of "thousands of players each week". A truly ludicrous statement, but one that does not have at least a tiny bit of merit.

And this is a perfect example of the overall lack of respect for people on this server.

Unfortunately, any competitive video game brings out this nature. The winner's fun comes at the expense of the loser. Sure, it's possible for both sides to enjoy themselves, but anyone who has ever truly played PVP oriented games before will tell you that it doesn't work that way.

In order for this to be a valid statement, the game has to be competitive. The way things are, the only competition present is who can find the defenseless players first gets the most points. There is no competition between "high levels" and "low levels" or new players vs old. It simply doesn't exist. Competition implies that either side has the means to win, otherwise it's just one-sided.

Maybe there isn't room for both "non pvpers" and "pvpers" on this server, but I think there is. And I think it can be accomplished without throwing down a giant forcefield between the two groups, as kirinelf is asking. And quite frankly, it's just not my position to care. I dealt with the exact same shit that all noobs deal with, and I dealt with it a mere 6 months ago. I didn't quit, I didn't cry, and I moved on. It's hard for me to sympathize when they aren't taking the same steps I did to achieve enjoyment on this server.

I don't feel like expecting everyone who joins this server to "take the same steps you did to achieve enjoyment" is the way to handle it. It once again comes down to the fact that "pvpers" are free to play the game how they want, but everyone else is expected to play the game a certain why if they don't want to be part of the pvp scene. Even the rules themselves favor the "pvpers" in such a way that reinforces that mindset.

Maybe a class that divides the two camps isn't the solution, and maybe the karma system is. Obviously things come in time, but in that time, things are going on that people seem to be okay with. I guess I just don't understand the behavior that passes as acceptable. It's just in my nature to have an aversion to that sort of thing.

I'm not crying. I'm not whining. I'm not quitting. I move on. None of those things are the issue.
I'm pleasantly surprised with your willingness to actually have a discussion about this (even with your claims of suicidal tendancies), so thank you for that. It's much perfered to the "lol stfu noob and gtfo" that usually passes for intelligent debate when it comes to anti-pvp opinions.

 

[Jonsoon]

Wow, wall of text after wall of text... Only read a few posts just cause I am tagged here.

What I am taking from this thread is that you are trying to solo your way through Herocraft, which is very difficult to do. The server is designed to be played in groups. If you cannot defend yourself you should be joining a town. Guilds provide no defense since they have no regions.

Like northeaster345 said, I don't PvP at all, I actually suck at it. Yet I don't ever get killed because I am smart. Not necessarily hiding, I just don't go out in the open unless I need to. That's what is great about being a wizard and porting to spawn, then recalling to my house.

There is no reason for a no PvP class. It would honestly be the most OP raiding class, not to mention this would fit nowhere in any RPG setting.

 

[themeoff]

I'll be the first to admit that yes this server has some real jerks that just hunt noobs constantly. But there are some that do it to try and recruit new town members. I personally would have prolly never joined Legion of Oblivion had it not been for @bedbreat h finding me and my friends and 1v5ing us off course killing us all; but now I am part of one of the strongest pvp groups on the map and help defend new townies and all. You can ask many people at the start of the map if one LO member was attacked we raised a group to defend them. Strength and safety lie in strong town ties or alliances.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I agree with this in a general sense. My concern comes with how easy/difficult it will or won't be to change your perceived alignment. If all you need to do to show up as a blue, good guy is kill off a handful of "evils" then it won't accomplish anything. This isn't a thread about the nature of the karma system, so I won't go on a tangent too much, but I really hope there's a great deal of control over just how people flop alignments. I.E. killing anyone not evil immediately turns you evil, or something (doesn't have to be extreme, just an example). I just worry about how easily people will use the blue colored name to trick people and then just go "plant some flowers" or something to regain their blue color. Just my thoughts on that.

I too wonder if that will be an issue. I haven't heard or seen enough of the system to be able to say right now. We can only wait and see.

Six months is a great deal of time to learn the system (and obviously level up). A lot of problems happen to people who've newly joined, even within the first day. When your first impression of the community is that "everyone's out to get you" it can be disappointing, sure, but manageable. When your first impression of the community is that everyone's a bully and goes out of their way to make sure you have no fun, it's a different story.

And I don't buy that. You're clearly a PVP guy, at least on HC. You're very good at it and you know it, as is evidenced by the number of people killed by you frequently. I'm not condemning you because you're good at pvp, or because you enjoy it. Please don't mistake this as hostility, I'm just pointing out what I see from my sidelines playing.

No hostility taken there, and I can see why you'd make that statement. What I was trying to get across is that I don't specifically seek out PVP in games. Whether that be Minecraft or something else. I've played my fair share, sure, and I find that I am indeed pretty good at it, but it's not typically my "go-to" when it comes to gaming thrills. While I can enjoy pvp just as much as the guys who do nothing but every day of their lives, at the end of the day, I'm an oldschool RPG nut who just wants simple PVE elements that push my immersion level to the maximum.

And even on Herocraft, for a good while I didn't really do that much pvp. My PVP participation really didn't "start" until around December / January. Before then I just leveled, built, and farmed items. I was really devoted to the idea of "establishing myself" before I even attempted to really be a part of the pvp scene.

In order for this to be a valid statement, the game has to be competitive. The way things are, the only competition present is who can find the defenseless players first gets the most points. There is no competition between "high levels" and "low levels" or new players vs old. It simply doesn't exist. Competition implies that either side has the means to win, otherwise it's just one-sided.

This doesn't change the fact that it is competitive. Wherever there is a "competition", there are those that aren't able to "compete". This "noob stomping" that occurs on Herocraft exists in literally every form of player versus player interaction that exists. Whether it is Herocraft PVP, some BS Call of Duty match, Chess, or even Rock Paper Scissors, you're going to see situations where the weak are destroyed by the strong. When people interact with each other in a way that leads to one of them being the "winner", you will witness this kind of behavior.

The only difference is that it is much easier to see this kind of thing in video gaming, due to diverse audiences and large libraries of games to choose from.

I don't feel like expecting everyone who joins this server to "take the same steps you did to achieve enjoyment" is the way to handle it. It once again comes down to the fact that "pvpers" are free to play the game how they want, but everyone else is expected to play the game a certain why if they don't want to be part of the pvp scene. Even the rules themselves favor the "pvpers" in such a way that reinforces that mindset.

Maybe a class that divides the two camps isn't the solution, and maybe the karma system is. Obviously things come in time, but in that time, things are going on that people seem to be okay with. I guess I just don't understand the behavior that passes as acceptable. It's just in my nature to have an aversion to that sort of thing.

I'm not crying. I'm not whining. I'm not quitting. I move on. None of those things are the issue.
I'm pleasantly surprised with your willingness to actually have a discussion about this (even with your claims of suicidal tendancies), so thank you for that. It's much perfered to the "lol stfu noob and gtfo" that usually passes for intelligent debate when it comes to anti-pvp opinions.

I care about this server, at least a little bit. I'd like to thrive and I'd like my experience to remain enjoyable on it. I know people here and I have a sense of "ownership" to my character that I have made here. Because of this, I care about it's future. This is one of those changes that I see going wrong very easily, and so I felt the need to speak out (at least a little).

I would actually like to take the time out to say that I'm not a "noob camper". I don't get a sense of enjoyment from it, nor do I feel like I achieved something when I do it. But occasionally, yeah, I kill noobs. Sometimes they're the only people around and I've got absolutely nothing better to do. So I kill em, I burn what I don't need, and I move on.

But sometimes, these noobs whisper me. They say stuff like "good fight", or "aw man, how close did I get?" and I smile a little. I'll talk back to them, and sometimes I end up giving their shit back. Sometimes I give them more than they lost originally, just for being a good sport about it.

But last night, or two nights ago, whenever it was, I saw kirinelf die (coincidentally, it was to my fellow town member) and he started raging pretty hard in [o] chat about it. A big discussion sprouted from it, which eventually led to this thread being created (or so I presume). I didn't really like that. Despite his obvious devotion to wanting to better his experience, and taking proper channels to make it happen, it felt childish. It felt...wrong. This was why I mentioned "suicidal tendencies" throughout my posts. But yeah, I don't really have a point there, I'm just...throwing out thoughts.

---------

I think, at the end of the day, it comes down to what a player is actually expecting from this server. Why Herocraft? Why did you, or anyone else, write up a Whitelist application and get accepted into the server?

Despite your aversion to pvp, you sound as though you want to be here. And of course, the same goes for kirinelf. I too, want to stay here, and I want to continue enjoying my experience.

I've mentioned that I thought new players were great to have (and I meant that), but perhaps Herocraft isn't the place to be for some people. While there are, of course, many unhappy players on Herocraft, there are likely many more that are happy with the current server status. Is altering an entire server's mechanics and ruleset just so that they fit your specific needs a fair desire? I think that some players, possibly kirinelf, could be better off playing somewhere where he can enjoy the things that he want to enjoy, without all these hassles of being bullied into the ground and treated with nothing but hostility from fellow players.

If there is something you truly enjoy on this server, then that's fine too. I'm just saying, consider what you want, and consider how it effects the players that are already enjoying themselves before you truly push your ideas onto them.

 

[kirinelf]

There are plenty of noobs that play on this server every day that I've never seen, heard, or killed. They get by without ever showing up on anyone's radar. (I'm speaking figuratively here gentlemen.) And on the other hand, there are plenty of noobs that I've seen get camped all day, every day, every week.

This might be true. In the month or so I've been playing, I've only been killed five or so times by players. The thing is that the majority of those times was in the past few days, a giant spike in deaths. It's almost like I'm being targeted (I hope not, but you never know. Bloody Rangers).

And I see you're also not doing anything for the noobs that get camped, even though you've been in their shoes once. That said, it's your choice. xD

However, I think this will actually be alleviated a bit by the Karma system. It will take a week or so for everyone's Karma to settle in, but once it does, you'll be able to tell immediately whether or not another player will attack you based on the color of their name. The karma of a player is offset by the player's pvp habits, and thus, should signify to you (and everyone else) that he does not typically gank lower levels.

So when seeing a "blue" player, you will know that they aren't necessarily a bad guy. You would think, "Hey! This guy is a good guy. He might be my friend. Cool." Maybe you'll shout at him, ask him what's up, maybe group together and go be noobs somewhere. Maybe you'll just move on with your life. There isn't really an impending sense of doom when meeting these players.

But when seeing a "red" player, there will be no need to communicate or reason, you will simply need to run as fast as you can without ever looking back, because they are going to kill you, and they are going to do it quick.

This assumes you get to see the player's name. I've stated this problem a few times in the thread. It's all very well when you see them coming, but if they're sneaking or something so you can't see them, there is more or less no point in this.

Wow, wall of text after wall of text... Only read a few posts just cause I am tagged here.

What I am taking from this thread is that you are trying to solo your way through Herocraft, which is very difficult to do. The server is designed to be played in groups. If you cannot defend yourself you should be joining a town. Guilds provide no defense since they have no regions.

Like northeaster345 said, I don't PvP at all, I actually suck at it. Yet I don't ever get killed because I am smart. Not necessarily hiding, I just don't go out in the open unless I need to. That's what is great about being a wizard and porting to spawn, then recalling to my house.

There is no reason for a no PvP class. It would honestly be the most OP raiding class, not to mention this would fit nowhere in any RPG setting.

I'm not exactly trying to solo my way through Herocraft. If I was I'd be killed a lot less since I tend to be more or less invisible. But I am the guildmaster of a guild, even if the members are low levelled at the moment, and I have a responsibility to my guild. If one or more members of my guild are constantly being bullied, you bet I'd raise my voice since no one else has.

Again, I'm willing to suspend my opinions on the no-PvP class until the karma system is released, although I do not agree that there is NO reason for it. I mean, even an RPG setting doesn't or shouldn't look kindly upon those who bully others for the sake of it. And speaking of RPG settings, why is someone under level 10 allowed to be non-PvP (Aside from the methods I listed here) but everyone raises a massive outcry over adding a whole new class that disables PvP? Not to mention ignoring the alternative in the OP.

But last night, or two nights ago, whenever it was, I saw kirinelf die (coincidentally, it was to my fellow town member) and he started raging pretty hard in [o] chat about it. A big discussion sprouted from it, which eventually led to this thread being created (or so I presume). I didn't really like that. Despite his obvious devotion to wanting to better his experience, and taking proper channels to make it happen, it felt childish. It felt...wrong. This was why I mentioned "suicidal tendencies" throughout my posts. But yeah, I don't really have a point there, I'm just...throwing out thoughts.

You could say that was the straw that broke the camel's back. It also came after a really tense situation in spawn when we were being circled by a pack of jackals holding diamond and gold weapons. Those same guys then started camping my guildies and putting them in a situation where if they didn't log off, they would die. In a regioned area (Using AoE skills to attack them through walls). While I'm not sure, I think they then came looking for me because I saw them coming and logged off. I'm not the kind to just mouth off and not do anything, I try to get things done. I knew from the start this thread is very likely to be waved off and dismissed from many of the older players. Still totally worth a try, especially since I DID bring up some very valid issues.

I've been a graceful loser before. But I just don't see the point in saying 'nice fight' when the fight was me running away and getting taken down without even putting up a fight. I don't see anything 'nice' going on there, and neither do I see a fight. A murder, yes. A fight, no.

I think, at the end of the day, it comes down to what a player is actually expecting from this server. Why Herocraft? Why did you, or anyone else, write up a Whitelist application and get accepted into the server?

Despite your aversion to pvp, you sound as though you want to be here. And of course, the same goes for kirinelf. I too, want to stay here, and I want to continue enjoying my experience.

Heroes plugin for PvE, no griefing allowed, active staff that actually do stuff, experienced server that's been around a while. And at this point, due to the friends I've made and the guild I've created. I want to be here. The question is whether or not I should be here.

I've mentioned that I thought new players were great to have (and I meant that), but perhaps Herocraft isn't the place to be for some people. While there are, of course, many unhappy players on Herocraft, there are likely many more that are happy with the current server status. Is altering an entire server's mechanics and ruleset just so that they fit your specific needs a fair desire? I think that some players, possibly kirinelf, could be better off playing somewhere where he can enjoy the things that he want to enjoy, without all these hassles of being bullied into the ground and treated with nothing but hostility from fellow players.

If there is something you truly enjoy on this server, then that's fine too. I'm just saying, consider what you want, and consider how it effects the players that are already enjoying themselves before you truly push your ideas onto them.

While I take that point about the altering of a whole server's mechanics for personal enjoyment, I like to think that it's for the benefit of all those non-PvPers out there. The truth may or may not be that, but I know there are a LOT of people ingame who never visit the forum and so never get to actually raise their voice about this issue, either for or against. The vocal minority will always be heard more than the silent majority. I've suggested an alternative that barely changes any game mechanics, just disables direct PvP against someone who isn't over level 10 in a combat class regardless of profession level. No one has commented on that yet, unless they are completely averse to the idea of non-PvP in the first place.

---

I'm still seeing a lot of 'L2P' and 'Deal with it' in the arguments. I see a lot of people trying to justify not having such a class or even the alternative I posted about profession levels (Which no one has commented on) because they dealt with it and because 'that's the way the server works'. Well that's the point of a Suggestion forum. I'm here to suggest a change. I don't feel that people should have to change their play style and be forced into doing things they don't like, to have to 'bite the bullet' as Delf said just to have fun on the server. "I did it, you can do it too" is not a valid argument.

I see a lot of talk of how non-PvP classes will be OP for raiding and the like, but no one has commented on the counters I've posted. And aside from trying to justify why it shouldn't be in the server due to there being 'workarounds' (Get good, deal with it, join a town, make friends, pay them off, become a hermit, etc), there has been little actual dissection of HOW the class might break things (Aside from immersion).

At this point it really all comes down to the karma system. It'll make or break the server for me if my suggestion isn't even considered. I'll stick around until then, maybe.

 

[northeaster345]

Again, I'm willing to suspend my opinions on the no-PvP class until the karma system is released, although I do not agree that there is NO reason for it. I mean, even an RPG setting doesn't or shouldn't look kindly upon those who bully others for the sake of it. And speaking of RPG settings, why is someone under level 10 allowed to be non-PvP (Aside from the methods I listed here) but everyone raises a massive outcry over adding a whole new class that disables PvP? Not to mention ignoring the alternative in the OP.

There was a massive outcry when no-pvp for people under level 10 was added this map. People immediately abused it to steal from others, or be a troll or a general nuisance.

 

[kirinelf]

There was a massive outcry when no-pvp for people under level 10 was added this map. People immediately abused it to steal from others, or be a troll or a general nuisance.

Huh. Didn't know that. xD When was this?

And you guys still say this isn't a mainly PvP server...

 

[XenZan]

This doesn't change the fact that it is competitive. Wherever there is a "competition", there are those that aren't able to "compete". This "noob stomping" that occurs on Herocraft exists in literally every form of player versus player interaction that exists. Whether it is Herocraft PVP, some BS Call of Duty match, Chess, or even Rock Paper Scissors, you're going to see situations where the weak are destroyed by the strong. When people interact with each other in a way that leads to one of them being the "winner", you will witness this kind of behavior.

Heheh, except that here it's chess between someone with a 3-digit IQ and a single-digit IQ. The latter has no chance, ever, thus is a waste of time and not a competition at all.
Rock Paper Scisors where you're always forced to choose Paper against people wielding scissors is hardly a competition, nor do both sides have an equal opportunity to succeed.

I'm having fun with the examples, but overall it suits my point. xD

I would actually like to take the time out to say that I'm not a "noob camper". I don't get a sense of enjoyment from it, nor do I feel like I achieved something when I do it. But occasionally, yeah, I kill noobs. Sometimes they're the only people around and I've got absolutely nothing better to do. So I kill em, I burn what I don't need, and I move on.

Pray tell, what is the point of that? Why burn what YOU don't need? What does it accomplish for you, other than to be mean?
I understand that noobs will get killed, and robbed, and mugged and etc. I also understand that not every "high level" player camps noobs for the giggles, and that not everytime a noob dies by the hands of a "high level" that it was malicious. I just don't see the need for certain behavior, like leaving obsidian on death chests or burning the dropped loot.

Is altering an entire server's mechanics and ruleset just so that they fit your specific needs a fair desire?

I will concede this to you. But it's the lack of concession from the "other side" that is frustrating in debate. I don't need the server to bend to my needs, but basic ettiquette isn't too much to ask for, nor does it benefit only me. Not to mention that untold numbers of concessions are made on a constant basis to the "other camp." So many rules, even since I joined in November, have been altered to "pvper's" benefit. It just seems to me like a bone could be thrown our way. Maybe this new class isn't the answer, but to assume that the karma system will be just because it is advertised as such is just silly.

Again, time will tell with the karma system. I like the idea of no-pvp for players whose combat class is not yet lv10 regardless of their profession level. It's not much of a difference when a lv1 Healer is destroyed by a lv60 Whatever vice the lv11 Healer being destroyed in the same fashion, but it's the principle, I think. Obviously it brings up many of the same concerns with people trolling because they can't be killed, but is there much of a differnce between that and the "pvpers" trolling because low-levels can't beat them? It's more or less the same concept to me, except people who don't want to deal with it have that choice.

I'll be the first to admit that yes this server has some real jerks that just hunt noobs constantly. But there are some that do it to try and recruit new town members. I personally would have prolly never joined Legion of Oblivion had it not been for @bedbreat h finding me and my friends and 1v5ing us off course killing us all; but now I am part of one of the strongest pvp groups on the map and help defend new townies and all. You can ask many people at the start of the map if one LO member was attacked we raised a group to defend them. Strength and safety lie in strong town ties or alliances.

As an ending, semi-offtopic note... This seems like a TERRIBLE way to recruit people to your town. "Let me abuse you and troll you and cause you untold grief and it'll make you want to be my friend and join my town." It's just stupid. Now that you mention it, I was trapped in obsidian by a few people from a certain town, held up for items I didn't have, and then attacked when I didn't produce said items, all in an attempt to get me to join their town? My response: Um, hello? Are you an idiot? Of course I don't want to be in a town with you! You're being a total douche!
Not sure where that logic (lack thereof) comes from.

 

[themeoff]

XenZan I said he did it once no trolling was done learn to read my good friend.

 

[XenZan]

themeoff Actually, if you'd like to get technical, you said nothing about how many times it happened, except for:

I'll be the first to admit that yes this server has some real jerks that just hunt noobs constantly. But there are some that do it to try and recruit new town members.

Note, "hunt noobs constantly" and "some that do it to try and recruit new town members" followed by your example of the gentleman who did it to you. Perhaps be more clear next time before asking someone to learn to read, thanks.

 

[morefield1234]

People say go far away from others and stay off others radars. I did this. I went to the far reaches of the map so that I could raise my crafter skill by mining in a safe secluded area mining in the bottom layers. What happens? There were less than 30 people online at the time and I get singled out from probably a bored ranger that chose me to go after. I was thinking about donating to the server to get some of the tier rewards but after that happened, I'll probably never be back on.