Suggestion [Class] Pacifist Class

[kirinelf]

Yeah yeah. I know. 'Ugh, new class'? Well, I'ma try and justify it, so.

Is it at all possible to have a 'combat' class for non-PvPers? Essentially, a class maybe called 'Pacifist' where we'll be unable to attack other players and other players will be unable to attack us.

I know there's a lot of potential for abuse, so here're some suggestions to minimize said abuse:

1) Cooldown on class selection. After choosing this class, you cannot switch to another class for a period of time. Maybe seven days, maybe a month, maybe permanently.
2) High cost. Used in conjunction with a fairly short cooldown. Maybe 1000c to spec into this class with a 7 day cooldown before you can switch classes again?
3) No armor at all. Since this class can be used for PvE, having no armor means a disadvantage against the stronger mobs of the server (Like Endermen and Creeper explosions).
4) Have players default into the Pacifist class, having to spec out of it into Warrior/Caster/Healer/Rogue during the tutorial if they want to. Once you spec out, you can't go back.

I'm throwing this suggestion out there in full defiance of all the gankers and campers in the community (Not all PvPers, since PvP =/= ganking and camping) and in full support of most of the newbies and friendlies on the server. The current attitude of the server to such things is 'Deal with it noob'. They tout 'hardcore' as the reason it's completely legal for five level 60s to circle three level 10s, or even to use lighters (flint and steel) to set fire to those under level 10 (Which this class won't change at all). I want to call several types of crap on that.

Hardcore is supposed to mean extreme. It's not supposed to mean bullying. PvP'ing is supposed to be a relatively fair fight between two players, not a chase between a high level player and a low level player trying to get away. I've asked in the server and many people say the point of PvP'ing is to the feeling of being able to beat a similarly levelled opponent through skill. Then what's the point of killing low levelled people? Others say they want loot. What would a low level player have that you, wearing a full set of diamond/iron/gold/chainmail armor and wielding a diamond sword/hoe/axe/shovel/blaze rod wouldn't have? You've already specced into a class, maybe more than one, got a prof, maybe mastered a few specs even. The newbie hasn't even specced into a single spec. That just leaves one reason: For the lol. That 'lol' is driving away newbies from the server, potential sources of votes and donations. All for the sake of funsies.

I've heard that the PvP scene is dying. I have no idea if that's true, since I'm no PvP'er. But I can tell you that the ganking scene is well and truly alive. I have a friend who was trapped in his region with four other people while five level 60s were circling them, trapping them inside and forcing them to log out. Why did they do that? Because he killed some mobs that one of the 'pros' was luring into a no-PvP zone to kill someone who was afk. I've been killed for just minding my own business, working on a farm with which I planned to help newbies on the server. Standing there smelting cobble? Easy target. Die.

I truly think that having such a class is fair and not broken, as long as you have sufficient restrictions and costs like I've outlined above. As it currently is, this server is incredibly newbie-unfriendly. Sure, you get the four or five people on the server at any one time who greet newbies, show them around, give them food, answer questions etc. But what about the fifty or so people on at that same time who kill other players on sight and camp their death chests for loot they don't need?

I don't mind PvP. I don't know WHY it's in a game about mining and crafting, but I don't mind it. It's the harassment, the bullying, the constant fear of being killed for no reason other than laughs and loot the killer doesn't need that I really mind. If you want to PvP, there're Arenas. There're Deathmatches. There're duels. Use them. If you're so hardcore, why don't you pick on someone your own size?

Well, I've made my point. For anyone thinking to post a reply, if your reply is just going to consist of 'Deal with it' or 'If you don't like it, you can leave', don't bother. I don't know if I can report it, but I'll definitely try. If you're gonna try and say this suggestion is not a good idea, make a coherent post explaining why. That's the whole damn point of a Suggestion forum.

Now lemme just put on my anti-flame suit, and warn my profile that it's going to get a crapton of Dislikes/Disagrees.

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Edit (13/04/2013):

Another possible workaround to prevent the PvP'ers from alienating the non-PvP'ers completely is to make it so that you don't become open to PvP when your profession goes over level 10. I've been told ingame by a staff member that currently, it doesn't matter which path you have that's over level 10. You could be a level 1 Healer and a level 11 Crafter and you're still open to PvP.

I think there has been a suggestion a while back for people who have no combat class but will be able to have two professions, again at the expense of not being able to PvP. It got flamed in much the same way my current thread is being burnt, which again shows that despite not being advertised as such, this is a PvP server and not the balance it was advertised as.

My alternative suggestion is that there aren't any changes to the current system of classes, except that profession levels are no longer triggering the removal of no-PvP tags. This should be a fairly quick and simple edit, without the hassle of adding new classes. That is, if the majority of the server doesn't go wild at the thought of it.

 

[Crimlake]

Good idea, problem is people will use this to grief/annoy, and more often than not, the people immune to pvp are the ones that deserve the death in the first place.

 

[WendyMarvell]

I can see a non-pvp class being used for things other than just being a pacifist. A pacifist could run out of a "safe area" in their town while being raided and cover up any death chests block off/trap raiders with dirt. Though this can happen with players who aren't level 10 yet as well. They could also just waltz in anywhere they want and steal anything that isn't protected and yet there being no way to retaliate. Players who don't like direct PvP, but still want to steal and such would probably like this.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

Hardcore is supposed to mean extreme. It's not supposed to mean bullying.

Bravo, bravo! I have no idea how kirinelf's suggestion of a non-PvP class might be implemented, but this statement is such a wonderful summation of what's going wrong with the current state of anything-goes PvP and how destructive it is toward the server community.

... many people say the point of PvP'ing is to the feeling of being able to beat a similarly levelled opponent through skill ...

-snip-

I've heard that the PvP scene is dying. I have no idea if that's true, since I'm no PvP'er. But I can tell you that the ganking scene is well and truly alive.

Please, anything that encourages players to respect themselves and to respect their opponents, to take pride in matching their own strength against an opponent's strength, and that discourages players from making crap moves just because they can get away with it...

 

[thomasyeung9999]

Well, I totally agree with the thing that higher lbs bullying others.
Once in a swamp, I got ambushed, and killed, which is quite fair if 8 am not paying attention. I am a lv20 and rising of hell is lv 60.
I respawn at the grave yard and go and get back the chest, just when I got it I got killed again, then he calls pewpew and troll me, using carrots and potatoes to hit me since I have nothing at all. I hate campers, gankers. PvP suppose to be a fair and square duel, but ambushes should be allowed too, cause that is what rouge do..... But with a guy higher lv specced then the victim and need two other player helping u to troll, I dun see the point of PvP, but troll around the server.

 

[Dsawemd]

The implementation of the Karma system is meant to deal with noob killing, and the server recently experienced a drop-off in organized team fights, meaning that bored 60's will gank noobs to pass the time.

-1 for implementing No PvP tags for a spec. This would be abused even more than the previous no-pvp tags were, and preventing/disciplining that abuse would be more prevalent than actual peaceful use of the idea.

There are ways to prevent ganking until Karma is implemented. I see noobs making houses 300 blocks outside of spawn, on the surface, who then complain about getting killed. Noobs without a town, complain of unfair numbers. Noobs who post in public chats about their loot, sometimes even going so far as to provide their location as well! These players need to understand how to be discrete and how to seek help, until they can stand on their own.

Do not want to pvp? Here's an idea: Go Dragoon, you will escape 90% of fights and you could even argue it helps build tall things lol.Another idea: Go Paladin, or Cleric, and survive your enemies while you run.

No matter what, you Need ALLIES to survive, and if you are not mastered, then the first thing you need to do is level. HeroCraft is designed to be leveled, and there are certain things you cannot do in the game without being 60. There are many things you cannot do without a small group of high level players.

TL: DR -1, No-pvp tags have a history of being abused despite regulation, Karma inc, Noobs are surprised at ganks after being lulled into false sense of security by the drop-off in group Mastered pvp, join a town, spec goon.

 

[Jasquan]

ALLIES

I guess this I why I get my ass kicked all the time, lol.

 

[kirinelf]

I can see a non-pvp class being used for things other than just being a pacifist. A pacifist could run out of a "safe area" in their town while being raided and cover up any death chests block off/trap raiders with dirt. Though this can happen with players who aren't level 10 yet as well. They could also just waltz in anywhere they want and steal anything that isn't protected and yet there being no way to retaliate. Players who don't like direct PvP, but still want to steal and such would probably like this.

While I can see problems with the first scenario, the second scenario is something that I personally feel is not only no different from what is currently happening in the server, but is an improvement.

There is no difference between a Pacifist class stealing something from a chest and any other class under level 10 stealing something from a chest. As it is now, towns already forbid stealing from the chests of members. The class of the thief is of no relevance, as is the level. In the wilderness, people are already stealing things from others. High level people gank lower leveled people for their stuff at will. If anything, having this class increases the risk of being stolen from in the wilderness, and will encourage people to join towns where stealing is outright forbidden. That's the problem with having stealing be legal on the server.

Bravo, bravo! I have no idea how kirinelf's suggestion of a non-PvP class might be implemented

It should be quite possible to just have a class that has a no-pvp tag on it, similar to what classes currently have for those under level 10.

The implementation of the Karma system is meant to deal with noob killing

I've heard this a few times, but I'm unsure how it's supposed to work. A skilled ganker sneaks until he's close to you, so you can't see his nameplate to begin with. Most ganks also happen from behind, so you won't see the nameplate. Of course I know he's evil; he killed me, didn't he? It's not going to help me if I can't see his deep red nameplate to begin with. Honestly, the Karma system sounds like just something to shut us up without being actually useful.

Not to mention that this is the internet. I'm betting that once the Karma system is released, at least 50% of the active server population will go, "I want to be Evil!". Look at the number of Evil towns and guilds. Evil on the internet is common. There're no rewards for being good nor any punishments for being bad. So why be good at all?

There are ways to prevent ganking until Karma is implemented. I see noobs making houses 300 blocks outside of spawn, on the surface, who then complain about getting killed. Noobs without a town, complain of unfair numbers. Noobs who post in public chats about their loot, sometimes even going so far as to provide their location as well! These players need to understand how to be discrete and how to seek help, until they can stand on their own.

I have no argument for this as far as the too dumb to live noobs are concerned. But what of the newbs (not noobs) who didn't do anything like this and still get ganked? I am more than 1500 blocks from spawn and don't speak in chat unless it's to snark at something silly or to help out a newbie. I'm probably more discreet than most people on this server; I tend to log out everytime I see a nameplate just so I don't get killed for absolutely no reason other than this:

bored 60's will gank noobs to pass the time.

a.k.a. For the lol. It's like they don't remember when they were noobs themselves and were getting picked on.

Do not want to pvp? Here's an idea: Go Dragoon, you will escape 90% of fights and you could even argue it helps build tall things lol.Another idea: Go Paladin, or Cleric, and survive your enemies while you run.

I tried. It might help if it didn't rubberband. I got ganked by someone this afternoon. I tried to run and use Jump. I managed to use the skill once before dying (Since that someone was a level 60 who took me down to half health in like three attacks PLUS has a DoT) and it didn't even help; I got rubberbanded. This happened twice in a row, since I went back to try and get my chest (Silly Kirin. A level 14 Dragoon is going to get slaughtered by a level 60 whatever that guy was). A low level Pally or Cleric can't do jack against someone with a slow, a bind or a DoT.

No matter what, you Need ALLIES to survive

I have allies. Unfortunately, gankers have allies too. Remember that little story I had up there?

I have a friend who was trapped in his region with four other people while five level 60s were circling them, trapping them inside and forcing them to log out. Why did they do that? Because he killed some mobs that one of the 'pros' was luring into a no-PvP zone to kill someone who was afk.

My friend had four people. I had one more. We were six people, none of us over level 20, against a team of FIVE level 60s. Don't you think that's a teensy weensy bit unfair?

and if you are not mastered, then the first thing you need to do is level. HeroCraft is designed to be leveled, and there are certain things you cannot do in the game without being 60. There are many things you cannot do without a small group of high level players.

The leveling process is just going out into a swamp, waiting for slimes to spawn and killing them while trying not to get killed by both mobs and other players trying to either do the same thing or for the lol. That's all. Towns have dedicated training spots just to boost players to level 60. There is almost nothing to do WHILE getting there aside from level. If that's the case what's the point of having levels? Why not give us everything to begin with? Then at least you won't get people whining about how unfair mismatches are (Like I'm doing right now).

TL: DR -1, No-pvp tags have a history of being abused despite regulation, Karma inc, Noobs are surprised at ganks after being lulled into false sense of security by the drop-off in group Mastered pvp, join a town, spec goon.

Joining a town does about a grand load of one thing: Keep your chests safe. If someone wants to gank you, they'll gank you. Track you to your city, wait outside the door, kill you. Follow you around, kill you. Run into you while you're in the wild, kill you. They can't kill you IN the town, but it's not like you can stay in the town forever, right? Not to mention AoE skills can go through walls, and is completely legal. Too close to the wall? Sorry, you got hit by a Tremor. If you happen to be low on health and die, sucks to be you HAHAHA.

 

[Dsawemd]

-snip-

You seem to care about dying a lot. I know leveling is boring, but what are you doing that is so pressing you are willing to risk dying because you have less HP, damage, and skills than your opponent? Level first, until then /recall on sight of those nasty groups of 5 lvl 60's, hide, run, survive. If you have trouble with dragoon because of your lag, Smaurai's have WW, and Bards are a mobile class with decent armor and slows.

1. There is no difference between a Pacifist class stealing something from a chest and any other class under level 10 stealing something from a chest. As it is now, towns already forbid stealing from the chests of members. The class of the thief is of no relevance, as is the level. In the wilderness, people are already stealing things from others. High level people gank lower leveled people for their stuff at will. If anything, having this class increases the risk of being stolen from in the wilderness, and will encourage people to join towns where stealing is outright forbidden. That's the problem with having stealing be legal on the server.

2. I've heard this a few times, but I'm unsure how it's supposed to work. A skilled ganker sneaks until he's close to you, so you can't see his nameplate to begin with. Most ganks also happen from behind, so you won't see the nameplate. Of course I know he's evil; he killed me, didn't he? It's not going to help me if I can't see his deep red nameplate to begin with. Honestly, the Karma system sounds like just something to shut us up without being actually useful. Not to mention that this is the internet. I'm betting that once the Karma system is released, at least 50% of the active server population will go, "I want to be Evil!". Look at the number of Evil towns and guilds. Evil on the internet is common. There're no rewards for being good nor any punishments for being bad. So why be good at all?

1. Multiple exploits including easy town defense of deathchests, stealing from OTHER towns (not your own), etc. would be possible if your idea was implemented. I know you do not think in terms of PvP (you did not even consider the potential to steal from other towns lol) but many others do, and would welcome a no-pvp teammate.

2. The Karma system will provide rewards for being good and punishments for being evil....

This thread brings up some great points, but I read the solution as "Implement Karma, an idea that has been around since Sanctum, and has been touted as 'soon to arrive' almost as long as Dungeons have been".

Where are Dungeons (fun, balanced leveling alternative with less xp and more loot/rp)?
Where is Karma?
The server would be improved greatly if the announcements of these aspects were actually followed through to implementation.

 

[kirinelf]

You seem to care about dying a lot. I know leveling is boring, but what are you doing that is so pressing you are willing to risk dying because you have less HP, damage, and skills than your opponent? Level first, until then /recall on sight of those nasty groups of 5 lvl 60's, hide, run, survive. If you have trouble with dragoon because of your lag, Smaurai's have WW, and Bards are a mobile class with decent armor and slows.

I'll admit it isn't very pressing. I don't even have a lot of valuables on me most of the time. I'm a terrible miner (So I don't really have the reagents to mark/recall on me anyways), bad at building, abysmal at PvP. What I'm currently doing is maintaining a farm and working on creating a guild that will let me help newbies and returning players on the server by being a source of food, answers and assistance. Click the image in my signature to find out more.

The problem really isn't on MY end, per se, although it's annoying as heck to have to walk back to my deathchest and find that my gold nuggets have all been taken (Greedy. I haven't even specced into my profession yet, they've mastered both their combat AND profession). It's what's been happening to my guild members, namely the scenario I highlighted above twice. This afternoon I was more or less stuck in spawn because there were quite a few high levelled players circling the three of us with full intent to hunt us down like dogs as soon as we left the non-PvP area. One of them once camped my guild members at a spawner, then had a Ranger friend track them and constantly kept killing them. A little after I logged out for the day when I saw them coming into the farm I was working in, my guild member sent me a PM telling me that he and a mate are now camping another two guild members of mine, placing obsidian over their death chests.

This isn't hardcore. This isn't PvP. These are kids (either physically or mentally) with more power than those around him, and abusing it for laughs.

I don't even bother running or hiding. As soon as I see someone else around my area, I log off. I'm not going to risk wasting time typing out a greeting message to see if he's friendly. I might get killed mid-sentence. Is this the kind of community you're defending?

Multiple exploits including easy town defense of deathchests, stealing from OTHER towns (not your own), etc. would be possible if your idea was implemented. I know you do not think in terms of PvP (you did not even consider the potential to steal from other towns lol) but many others do, and would welcome a no-pvp teammate.

I have no arguments for that. You're quite right. Any sort of benefit is potentially abusable. And my mind is completely hardwired to avoid PvP at all costs, plus I have morals and codes of honor I follow so while I tried to cover all the potential abusable things above, I didn't quite get to that. That is really a conundrum. I hope there're other anti-gankers out there who could brainstorm a solution to this as I'm fairly brain dead at the moment.

Is there a way to allow certain actions trigger changes in classes? This wasn't covered in the thread that tells you what the coders can or can't do. What I mean is, is there a way to check for something such as opening a chest, which will remove your no-pvp tag for a period of time?

2. The Karma system will provide rewards for being good and punishments for being evil....

There'd better be some damn good benefits for those of us who're actually trying to help people on the server and some painful consequences for those who have fun at others' expense. >_> I'll admit I have no idea what these rewards and punishments are, so I'll refrain from commenting on karma as much as I can.


---

I still think my idea is a good one if properly implemented. Having new rules and making towns open to PvP for people who aren't part of the town, for example, might alleviate some of the concerns Dsawernd raised, which are entirely valid.

 

[northeaster345]

-snip-.

I agree that there's a large group of high level players who like killing people all the time, and I can understand the frustration at people who purposefully go around abusing lower level players.

A no-pvp class is the wrong solution in my book
a- it's abusable in so many ways (pvp free miner placing tnt, etc.)
b- it makes you have to make a choice between not getting killed or being able to play in pve and pvp situations at all, so you're basically no longer playing the same game as everyone else
c- this will put even more pressure on lower level players, since there are even fewer targets for these higher level players who are aggressively killing lower level players

Karma is a better solution, as it changes the calculus of who you should fight
Why do people kill low level players?
- they're more likely to be carrying a significant amount of material wealth on them, since they aren't established
- they're easier to kill by far
- they're more likely to be out in the open, leveling
low risk, high reward, and they're easier to find. It's harder to find and fight higher level players, because they're often in established towns, or not in a place people can get to them. If you add rewards for fighting higher level players, and disincentives for fighting lower level players, we can adjust the behavior of people.

Also people have different expectations of what pvp should be. When I think of open-world pvp, I don't expect a fair fight. I'm a wizard, I'll run away from you, I have no obligation to fight you. I'll bring in 9 of my friends, you can't and shouldn't expect a fair fight in open world pvp imo, that's what arenas and duels are for. You can't have it both ways, having open-world pvp, but that is also fair and balanced in all engagements.

 

[Dsawemd]

What I'm currently doing is maintaining a farm and working on creating a guild that will let me help newbies and returning players on the server by being a source of food, answers and assistance. Click the image in my signature to find out more.
.

Oh dear. You ARE one of the noobs who doesnt know how to play. You are taking low levels under YOUR wing, as a low level! Of COURSE your group is going to be an easy target! You need protecting! You can't protect people! Noobs used to be smarter, and like I said its not all your fault you are lured into a false sense of security but DAMN.

LOL Noob Guild no wonder you are having troubles. You can't help them until you help yourself, and likely not until you find several like-minded 60's to help you.

 

[lioIIoil]

Lol thats true that noobs are dumber. I read the wiki for about a hour before I started playing and could answer most help chat questions. Now you have people that run around as a level 2 lostsoul building a herotown. When I was a low level I was constantly camped. I knew it was part of the game so Inever felt hurt. but it motivated me to level up faster. I never felt bullied anytime I was killed. I don't go out looking for new players to kill but I fight anyone I kill. Its funny how some low levels band together and kill higher level players in warshard. The karma system will fix this.

 

[kirinelf]

a- it's abusable in so many ways (pvp free miner placing tnt, etc.)

I've made note of this above. Restrictions on block placement and certain limits such as removing the no-PvP tag upon opening a chest for a certain period of time (If that's doable) would alleviate things to some degree.

c- this will put even more pressure on lower level players, since there are even fewer targets for these higher level players who are aggressively killing lower level players

True, but I'm more surprised you don't seem to think of encouraging higher levelled players to, I dunno. Maybe STOP aggressively killing lower levelled players.

It's harder to find and fight higher level players, because they're often in established towns, or not in a place people can get to them.

If you add rewards for fighting higher level players, and disincentives for fighting lower level players, we can adjust the behavior of people.

I thought this was the whole point of Arenas, Duels and Deathmatches. You can fight with people on the other side of the map. Heck it's a legal way to fight townies. Chuck in a few more rewards for winning (Like a tournament where the winner gets an endstone for example) and that solves that problem.

Also people have different expectations of what pvp should be. When I think of open-world pvp, I don't expect a fair fight. I'm a wizard, I'll run away from you, I have no obligation to fight you. I'll bring in 9 of my friends, you can't and shouldn't expect a fair fight in open world pvp imo, that's what arenas and duels are for. You can't have it both ways, having open-world pvp, but that is also fair and balanced in all engagements.

The main reason for this thread is that open-world PvP is nothing but ganking. Most of the real PvP comes in arenas and deathmatches where both sides know the rules and the circumstances with little penalty. At this point, I'm not seeing much point in open world PvP aside from raids and maybe defending your chests.

Oh dear. You ARE one of the noobs who doesnt know how to play. You are taking low levels under YOUR wing, as a low level! Of COURSE your group is going to be an easy target! You need protecting! You can't protect people! Noobs used to be smarter, and like I said its not all your fault you are lured into a false sense of security but DAMN.

LOL Noob Guild no wonder you are having troubles. You can't help them until you help yourself, and likely not until you find several like-minded 60's to help you.

And I see you're one of those people who don't differentiate noob from newb. Also one of those people who only accepts one definition of how to play: Your own. I'm not putting myself on the radar at all. I answer questions in help, but that's about it. I don't go ranging around the place like a superhero because I KNOW I'm not good enough. I'm starting a guild, yes, but apparently you don't exactly know how paranoid I am when I play HeroCraft because I know no one on the internet can be trusted. I'm not seeing where this 'false sense of security' you're talking about comes from. On a server like this where anyone can kill you, I have NO sense of security.


To put it simply, what I've told you was my ultimate aim. What I was doing was being in my farm, farming. I wasn't out looking for 'noobs' to help when I got ganked. All I was doing was farming. Powerleveling my Crafter without going mining, if you want to put it that way. At this point, it has nothing to do with whether or not I'm helping people I can't. It's simply about me, playing, then getting ganked.

I love how you instantly started insulting my intelligence. xD

I doubt there're many level 60s on the server who share my ideals. Most of them are only concerned with PvP. Once/if I get a HQ up (Assuming I don't leave the server before that), I'll post a guild thread and see what the general community thinks of helping rather than harming. As you can tell from the current responses in the thread, I don't have my hopes up.

Lol thats true that noobs are dumber. I read the wiki for about a hour before I started playing and could answer most help chat questions.

I read it for a day while waiting to be whitelisted. Whoopeedoo.

When I was a low level I was constantly camped. I knew it was part of the game so Inever felt hurt. but it motivated me to level up faster. I never felt bullied anytime I was killed.

Have you ever had a Ranger track you down with a friend and kill you all the time? Have you ever had someone camp your death chest for ages, placing obsidian over it for laughs? Have you ever been trapped in a no-PvP region with a horde of high levels circling the outside and knowing that as soon as you take one step out, you're dead?

I wonder if we're playing in the same era of Herocraft. Maybe there was less bullying going on back then when the memberbase was smaller. Maybe it'd be better if I'd joined earlier.


-----

So far the only good reason put forward for this class to not be implemented is the potential for abuse due to placing blocks over death chests and stealing, both of which I've put forward solutions for. The rest of the posts are just veterans going l2p and interestingly veiled insults. Oh, and a couple of disagrees on the first post. I'm surprised there aren't more, honestly. Was expecting around 10.

Really, the whole emphasis seems to be that hardcore = PvP. I can't be a hardcore farmer, I can't be a hardcore miner. If I don't PvP, I'm not hardcore. Never mind that I've spent 3 years trying to learn how to PvP properly but lag and an innate inability and dislike for PvP means I still can't PvP properly. 'Course, no one cares 'cause that's my problem, not theirs, right? L2P or GTFO? That's the current attitude of the server. I'd rather not use the word 'elitist', but...

 

[Bob_de_Blastoise]

Takes the hardcore out of herocraft

 

[lioIIoil]

kirinelf I have. I was helping my friend level crafte. The ranger killed my friend but a few moments later logged out on me. I tried out ranger and I tried tracking miners. It didn't work too well because track gives coords within 50 blocks. Not saying that this is a PvP server but PvP is a big aspect of Herocraft. I strongly disagree that world PvP is just ganking. I have been in raids that were balanced and very fun. You can level up very fast. Don't say that the second you leave a PvP border you are instantly killed. Thats not true. I was once a low level and I was killed often but I could get to level 60 fast. I suggest you join a town and make some friends. Level up to level 60 and then you could kill campers. If you want to not PvP then your suggestion is already in game. Do /hero reset every time you go over level ten. Every one of us was once new and low leveled. Im still camped by people but it is part of Herocraft.

 

[kirinelf]

Takes the hardcore out of herocraft

Hardcore is supposed to mean extreme.

I'm a hardcore pacifist and PvE'er.

Not saying that this is a PvP server but PvP is a big aspect of Herocraft.

Look around. PvP is more or less the ONLY aspect of Herocraft. Raiding is the main source of enjoyment for most people. Running around killing newbies is also a very tempting option for many people for reasons that have been outlined in the thread. PvE is just a way of levelling up to be able to PvP. Things might change when Dungeons roll around, but until then the entire non-PvP aspect of the server is to gear you up for PvP (Mining for ore to smelt into weapons and armor, levelling up to get new skills and speccing). Saying that this isn't a PvP server is like saying a tomato is a fruit. True, but it's just semantics.

I strongly disagree that world PvP is just ganking. I have been in raids that were balanced and very fun.

I've stated this in my post above, I think. The three main sources of PvP on the server are using built in features (dueling, deathmatches and arenas), ganking and raiding. Of them ganking is by far the most common; it's just not advertised/publicized like the other two are. I wouldn't mind taking part in a raid or two myself just for fun; I'd be prepared for it, wouldn't have any valuables on me, and both sides have consented to a fight. And most likely it'd be balanced. Ganking is none of those things.

You can level up very fast. Don't say that the second you leave a PvP border you are instantly killed. Thats not true. I was once a low level and I was killed often but I could get to level 60 fast. I suggest you join a town and make some friends. Level up to level 60 and then you could kill campers.

This depends on the person, and also highly dependant on play style. To put it one way, I play casually and thus can't keep up with the hardcores. To put it another way I play hardcore pacifist and thus can't keep up with the hardcore PvPers. People like Dsawemd will run their mouth about how I should change my playstyle to suit that of the server, and who knows. I might. But I still can't PvP. Lord knows I've tried on other servers. Even if I was a level 60 Dragoon I'd still get my ass handed to me.

If you want to not PvP then your suggestion is already in game. Do /hero reset every time you go over level ten.

I wouldn't mind doing this for a combat class, but this'll reset my crafter class as well. And according to someone ingame a while ago (gabizou, maybe, or Jonsoon), if either of my levels go above 10 I'm still open for PvP. Never mind I'm a level 1 Healer and a level 11 Crafter, I'm still open for PvP despite not being able to fight at all. If I could keep my combat level down and raise my profession without being open for PvP, it might be a good alternative to my original suggestion for a whole new class.

Every one of us was once new and low leveled. Im still camped by people but it is part of Herocraft.

But not everyone of us has the same talent for PvP. In real world terms, it's like saying everyone was a baby once, but some people were just born to be stars while others are doomed to mediocrity.

 

[Dsawemd]

1. ... I'm more surprised you don't seem to think of encouraging higher levelled players to, I dunno. Maybe STOP aggressively killing lower levelled players.

I thought this was the whole point of Arenas, Duels and Deathmatches. You can fight with people on the other side of the map. Heck it's a legal way to fight townies. Chuck in a few more rewards for winning (Like a tournament where the winner gets an endstone for example) and that solves that problem.

The main reason for this thread is that open-world PvP is nothing but ganking. Most of the real PvP comes in arenas and deathmatches where both sides know the rules and the circumstances with little penalty. At this point, I'm not seeing much point in open world PvP aside from raids and maybe defending your chests.



2. And I see you're one of those people who don't differentiate noob from newb. Also one of those people who only accepts one definition of how to play: Your own. I'm not putting myself on the radar at all. I answer questions in help, but that's about it. I don't go ranging around the place like a superhero because I KNOW I'm not good enough. I'm starting a guild, yes, but apparently you don't exactly know how paranoid I am when I play HeroCraft because I know no one on the internet can be trusted. I'm not seeing where this 'false sense of security' you're talking about comes from. On a server like this where anyone can kill you, I have NO sense of security.


3. To put it simply, what I've told you was my ultimate aim. What I was doing was being in my farm, farming. I wasn't out looking for 'noobs' to help when I got ganked. All I was doing was farming. Powerleveling my Crafter without going mining, if you want to put it that way. At this point, it has nothing to do with whether or not I'm helping people I can't. It's simply about me, playing, then getting ganked.

4. I love how you instantly started insulting my intelligence. xD

5. I doubt there're many level 60s on the server who share my ideals. Most of them are only concerned with PvP. Once/if I get a HQ up (Assuming I don't leave the server before that), I'll post a guild thread and see what the general community thinks of helping rather than harming. As you can tell from the current responses in the thread, I don't have my hopes up.




6. So far the only good reason put forward for this class to not be implemented is the potential for abuse due to placing blocks over death chests and stealing, both of which I've put forward solutions for. The rest of the posts are just veterans going l2p and interestingly veiled insults. Oh, and a couple of disagrees on the first post. I'm surprised there aren't more, honestly. Was expecting around 10.

Really, the whole emphasis seems to be that hardcore = PvP. I can't be a hardcore farmer, I can't be a hardcore miner. If I don't PvP, I'm not hardcore. Never mind that I've spent 3 years trying to learn how to PvP properly but lag and an innate inability and dislike for PvP means I still can't PvP properly. 'Course, no one cares 'cause that's my problem, not theirs, right? L2P or GTFO? That's the current attitude of the server. I'd rather not use the word 'elitist', but...

1. You are actually incorrect in this section. PvP (which is, itself, only half of the potential of HC) is supposed to be in the world. Arenas and Battlegrounds are for PRACTICE. Duels are a solo test of skill, for bragging rights (Elo ranking too). Deathmatches are for fun, and impossible to duplicate in world PvP, since free-for-alls with 20 people would never happen. There will be plenty of non-ganking world pvp once a new crop of mastered heroes rise and take on the tyranny that is [INSERT FLAVOR OF THE MONTH PVP GUILD HERE].



2. Its not my playstyle, I die a lot. Its the server's playstyle, and that playstyle is hardcore. I know many people who will talk to you before engaging in a fight. Understand that they sometimes will still attack and kill you, but if you do not immediately flee (or log out which pisses people off and makes them wait to gank you upon login), they will interact with you, giving you a chance to meet them.



3. I will try to define Hardcore. Hardcore means that you can die at any time. That to succeed and survive you have to interact with people, play with discretion, and play intelligently.

The case of you farming is an example of a failure to understand two of the three. You were power-leveling crafter in a farm. I assume it was an un-regioned farm on the surface. If your the farm situation was different, reply and I will edit my advice.

Your failures are: to interact with people (plenty of towns have great regioned farms to power-level crafter in no time) and: to play with discretion (your farm should have been hidden until you were strong enough to stand your ground). You played intelligently, you were leveling and I assume you are capable of understanding basics of pvp at least.



4. I did not mean to insult you, sorry. I did directly compare the set of inferences you had made after playing the server for a short while with the set of inferences that many others, now veteran players, had made. I concluded that your impression of the server was less accurate than the previous player's, and attributed that difference to a difference in intelligence.

However, Herocraft is in a different place than it has been previously as the Staff seem to break free from the map cycle, and with the greylist fresh players are much more common; therefore perhaps it is not your fault.



5. Many mastered players enjoy just building, economy domination, or even light roleplay. Ask around the forums and find them! Also, the purpose of your proposed guild is filled, not by a group of generous 60''s, but by the selfish 60's who help Their Townmates because they are part of their community. That being said, if you can provide the right incentives to join, I am sure you could create a [Good] guild.


6. Read #2, you and I do not have to be Hardcore. The Server IS. Which means that although copying real-life moral incentives is a soon-to-be-accomplished goal of HC Karma, the [Hardcore] tag will not let you live, not 100% of the time. Herocraft can be very elitist, say it all you like. This is not a server for people who want an easy go of things, but the bonds created by playing the hard way are stronger than any I have seen elsewhere!

If I had to give you one piece of advice it would be: Play the game using the same mindset as you would for real life, and be humble enough to work within a community even if you must gradually earn your place of protection and friendship.

 

[lioIIoil]

Herocrafts classes make PvP really fun. If you don't like PvP and complain about it then this isn't the place for you.

 

[kirinelf]

1. You are actually incorrect in this section. PvP (which is, itself, only half of the potential of HC) is supposed to be in the world. Arenas and Battlegrounds are for PRACTICE. Duels are a solo test of skill, for bragging rights (Elo ranking too). Deathmatches are for fun, and impossible to duplicate in world PvP, since free-for-alls with 20 people would never happen. There will be plenty of non-ganking world pvp once a new crop of mastered heroes rise and take on the tyranny that is [INSERT FLAVOR OF THE MONTH PVP GUILD HERE].

I admit that was a slight exaggeration. There is a lot of trading going on and background economics, and there is obviously the formation of communities. However, I still do not agree that PvP is only half. From what I have seen everywhere including in this very thread, PvP makes up a substantial bit of Herocraft, probably close to three quarters or more. For the free for all bit, I did make sure to mention raids.

The three main sources of PvP on the server are using built in features (dueling, deathmatches and arenas), ganking and raiding. Of them ganking is by far the most common; it's just not advertised/publicized like the other two are. I wouldn't mind taking part in a raid or two myself just for fun; I'd be prepared for it, wouldn't have any valuables on me, and both sides have consented to a fight. And most likely it'd be balanced. Ganking is none of those things.

2. Its not my playstyle, I die a lot. Its the server's playstyle, and that playstyle is hardcore. I know many people who will talk to you before engaging in a fight. Understand that they sometimes will still attack and kill you, but if you do not immediately flee (or log out which pisses people off and makes them wait to gank you upon login), they will interact with you, giving you a chance to meet them.

I have met some nice people on the server. I remember someone giving my 23c to get my first spec. When I was starving, someone gave me the coords to their farm and told me to help myself. I met the members of my guild while farming. In most of these circumstances I stay away, close enough to be heard via shouting, far enough I could log off as soon as they appeared aggressive.

This does not always work. Distance can be covered by a dragoon or a speed burst. Ranged attacks can come. An ambush by someone else while chatting with another person I know is there. Half the time I meet people on the server, they say nothing at all and kill me. The other half of the time we avoid each other like a plague, neither of us sure if the other will kill you, especially while chatting. Once, I hid myself behind some dirt blocks and tried to start typing a message in chat asking if they were friendly. Didn't even get halfway through the sentence when they broke through the dirt and killed me.

The only safe way of interacting with people is to hide somewhere, sneak and make sure no one's around, then chat in a channel, not in local or shout. In other words, interacting with someone who isn't close to you is the only way you can stay safe if you aren't in a safe area. Heck, even in a safe area you can be surrounded by high levelled players that will make you very, VERY nervous about exiting the safe area, as has happened to me once before.

3. I will try to define Hardcore. Hardcore means that you can die at any time. That to succeed and survive you have to interact with people, play with discretion, and play intelligently.

The case of you farming is an example of a failure to understand two of the three. You were power-leveling crafter in a farm. I assume it was an un-regioned farm on the surface. If your the farm situation was different, reply and I will edit my advice.

Your failures are: to interact with people (plenty of towns have great regioned farms to power-level crafter in no time) and: to play with discretion (your farm should have been hidden until you were strong enough to stand your ground). You played intelligently, you were leveling and I assume you are capable of understanding basics of pvp at least.

Your definition of hardcore is different to the dictionary definition of hardcore, although stuff like 'unwilling to bend or compromise' seems to fit. {That was a poor attempt at a joke. >_>}

I'll admit the farm was in an exposed area, unregioned and on the surface. It's not MY farm, but a farm I found and maintained, even improved. That said, to say I play without discretion is a bit of an overstatement. The fields are very large as well as flat, meaning that for the most part I can easily see if someone is coming on one of my periodic quick scans around even if they're sneaking. I keep my eye on the surroundings at all times, except when I'm answering questions in /h, snarking in /o or chatting with my party.

The only really painful thing is the farm house. One of the times I got ganked was when I was coming up from the underground tree farm. The ganker was sneaking right next to the stairs, and as soon as I came out I was killed in three hits by a level 60 Dragoon. I was underground, which fulfils the condition of not being on the surface. The only giveaway was my nametag, which would've given me away anyways on any non-regioned non-surface farm unless you propose playing through the server in permanent sneak mode. I COULD have avoided being ganked then if Kainzo hadn't removed the ability to check for people using local/shout, due to being hardcore.

And again we come back to the question of joining a town, which I haven't addressed as a potential solution in this thread yet. This is, again, my own fault, I admit. At the moment, there simply aren't any towns I'm interested in. Some I have an eye on, but I don't particularly want to join any Evil or Neutral town, which make up the vast majority of the towns on the server. The presence of taxes in towns is a major factor to me, since I'm unable to vote as often as I'd like. I'm sure no one likes a town-hopping person, so I'd like to make sure of my town before I join one.

The two failures you mentioned are, I admit, true to an extent. To say I don't interact with people is a half truth. I try, but most of the time I don't get the chance before I get killed. Either that or my standards are too high. After four deaths it's safer for me to log out than to try and interact. To say I don't play discreetly is also a half truth. Despite the surface farm, I do try to have awareness of the surroundings and sneak whenever I can. It's honestly rare that I get killed on the farm because I log out as soon as I see signs of people.

4. I did not mean to insult you, sorry. I did directly compare the set of inferences you had made after playing the server for a short while with the set of inferences that many others, now veteran players, had made. I concluded that your impression of the server was less accurate than the previous player's, and attributed that difference to a difference in intelligence.

However, Herocraft is in a different place than it has been previously as the Staff seem to break free from the map cycle, and with the greylist fresh players are much more common; therefore perhaps it is not your fault.

Eh, no offence taken. It's the internet after all. Assume everyone's an idiot and you're not too far off.

5. Many mastered players enjoy just building, economy domination, or even light roleplay. Ask around the forums and find them! Also, the purpose of your proposed guild is filled, not by a group of generous 60''s, but by the selfish 60's who help Their Townmates because they are part of their community. That being said, if you can provide the right incentives to join, I am sure you could create a [Good] guild.

I was unsure where I should post such things in the forum, since I don't want to spam. The only reason my guild thread hasn't been posted for new recruits in the guild forum is the lack of a HQ. Once I have one I'll post one and try to see if there're any people on the server with less murderous tendencies. Unless you're allowed to post even without a HQ in place yet? I'm not sure if Rosseau is right or wrong yet, on this server at any rate.

6. Read #2, you and I do not have to be Hardcore. The Server IS. Which means that although copying real-life moral incentives is a soon-to-be-accomplished goal of HC Karma, the [Hardcore] tag will not let you live, not 100% of the time. Herocraft can be very elitist, say it all you like. This is not a server for people who want an easy go of things, but the bonds created by playing the hard way are stronger than any I have seen elsewhere!

I have nothing against playing things the hard way. I have many things against bullying, abusing the power of a higher levelled player, stuff like that. That's the main gist of the thread. Some people use /hero whois to tell if the person is new or not, and if they're new, to leave them alone. Some people... don't.

If I had to give you one piece of advice it would be: Play the game using the same mindset as you would for real life, and be humble enough to work within a community even if you must gradually earn your place of protection and friendship.

This is exactly what I'm doing. I do everything in Herocraft the way I would in real life. Would I randomly walk up to some unknown person and kill him in real life? No. Would I try and help out people I could in real life? Yes. Would I trust everybody in real life? Hell no. xD

Herocrafts classes make PvP really fun. If you don't like PvP and complain about it then this isn't the place for you.

At this point we've probably covered everything we could about our opinions, John. Also, nice to see that you've admitted it's essentially a PvP server. xD That said, I really enjoy the Heroes plugin. If I could use them only for PvE (Say, Dungeons) it'd be REALLY fun.

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For anyone that's interested, I updated the first post with an alternate suggestion. Which probably is still not going to go through, but it was worth a shot.