Suggestion Caster nerf.

[applelove]

The big issue is Towns being huge pussies. When you have a huge wall or regioned fortress pussies will stand behind and pew pew. City security is the real issue behind "balance" in Herocraft to those who cry about dying. Real men don't use walls and simply fight as Herocraft intends ...

"Real men" find better ways to attack towns than going to their gates and using vulgar slang to call them out. Towns are intended to be used as residences for their citizens, and typically residents do not like to have their things stolen, or to be killed when they login. Therefor: Walls.
Herocraft doesn't "intend" or even imply a correct way to fight. We have duellers (which I assume you are) who prefer 1v1, and get upset when they are attacked in the wild by 3 people. We have raiders who work in groups to try to break through town defenses for the loot (or more typically for the fun of it.) We have groups of people who don't even like PVP, and therefor live in towns to avoid it. There is no correct way to fight on Herocraft, and it is not a PVP server. It is a hardcore server that has pvp.

This isn't the thread to discuss this, however.

 

[Dielan9999]

"Real men" find better ways to attack towns than going to their gates and using vulgar slang to call them out. Towns are intended to be used as residences for their citizens, and typically residents do not like to have their things stolen, or to be killed when they login. Therefor: Walls.
Herocraft doesn't "intend" or even imply a correct way to fight. We have duellers (which I assume you are) who prefer 1v1, and get upset when they are attacked in the wild by 3 people. We have raiders who work in groups to try to break through town defenses for the loot (or more typically for the fun of it.) We have groups of people who don't even like PVP, and therefor live in towns to avoid it. There is no correct way to fight on Herocraft, and it is not a PVP server. It is a hardcore server that has pvp.

Exactly this.


There are also people who stalk the wilds for people who are traveling between towns or going to/from spawn. However you are absolutely right that this ISN'T a PVP server.

 

[vudani]

What?

The imbalance of class population is directly relevant to the way regions work and the limited amount of equal ground group pvp. in other words, I'm saying you must consider WHERE people fight whether it be mobs or pvp. When people say casters are OP it's because they 1v1 or 1v2 them without a healer. Any good caster will win a 1v2 with LOS opportunities and running space.

 

[Dielan9999]

The imbalance of class population is directly relevant to the way regions work and the limited amount of equal ground group pvp. in other words, I'm saying you must consider WHERE people fight whether it be mobs or pvp. When people say casters are OP it's because they 1v1 or 1v2 them without a healer. Any good caster will win a 1v2 with LOS opportunities and running space.

I don't think the use of regions and the township system should be considered when balancing the classes.

Sure some classes should have skills that help them infiltrate towns, like sneak, blink, jump/superjump, safefall maybe some new skill, but when it comes to PVP and PVE, location is of little concern. Unless you are a disciple and you live on a mountain, you are either prepared, or not prepared for PVP.

 

[vudani]

with 15" cocks flailing in the wind set upon a sea of crimson blood using nothing but the bones of fallen enemies to use as weapons.

This was the most important part of my statement btw. PS: Karu is a master farmer and Cody is good with bones (it's a joke).

The only point I was making is that you guys's generally don't take into consideration the terrain.

 

[Dielan9999]

This was the most important part of my statement btw. PS: Karu is a master farmer and Cody is good with bones (it's a joke).

The only point I was making is that you guys's generally don't take into consideration the terrain.

Towns being built to be unraidable isn't an issue of class balance.

 

[vudani]

Towns being built to be unraidable isn't an issue of class balance.

I don't recall ever saying that. What I do remember saying is

City security is the real issue behind "balance" in Herocraft to those who cry about dying.

Quotations signifying a false truth because people often call caster OP because they do not know where when or how to fight them. You fail to see that I am saying people don't see these tactical strategies and just say X class is OP. In other words L2P. If you weren't so defensive you might see that I have essentially been agreeing with you.

Also, I prefer fighting at least 6 in the wild when I get jumped. 1v1 is too mainstream for me, 3 is my minimum.

 

[Dielan9999]

I don't recall ever saying that. What I do remember saying is

Quotations signifying a false truth because people often call caster OP because they do not know where when or how to fight them. You fail to see that I am saying people don't see these tactical strategies and just say X class is OP. In other words L2P. If you weren't so defensive you might see that I have essentially been agreeing with you.

Also, I prefer fighting at least 6 in the wild when I get jumped. 1v1 is too mainstream for me, 3 is my minimum.

We may agree that caster isn't that OP, but I don't agree with you about location. Sorry


EDIT: I can't think of any locations that significantly impact balance, or even PVP for that matter. Townships don't count because they are meant to have an advantage.

 

[vudani]

We may agree that caster isn't that OP, but I don't agree with you about location. Sorry


EDIT: I can't think of any locations that significantly impact balance, or even PVP for that matter. Townships don't count because they are meant to have an advantage.

Fight a Disciple on a mountain and say that again. Fight a Ranger in an open field and say that again. Fight a Pally in a 5x5 arena and say that again. Chase someone as melee through water and say that again.

 

[Dielan9999]

Fight a Disciple on a mountain and say that again. Fight a Ranger in an open field and say that again. Fight a Pally in a 5x5 arena and say that again. Chase someone as melee through water and say that again.

As a necro I've beaten a disciple on a mountain, and a ranger in an open field. I haven't had the chance to fight a paladin in a 5x5 arena (when does that ever exist?) but I know better than to put myself in that situation. I've beaten Dreadknights in the DH arena, and I've chased people through the water as a Dragoon on the test server.


With that said, I say it again. I don't agree with you.

 

[Demonxman]

go underwater and caster fireball is useless. the disciple must have sucked, and the pally must not have known how to play his class or maybe these guys aren't max level.

 

[Dielan9999]

go underwater and caster fireball is useless.

Necros have becomedeath and drainsoul lol

This topic has quickly gone downhill. If there's nothing significant to be contributed then I guess I'll unwatch the thread. I don't think casters are that OP, there is so much more to Heroes that needs attention than this. Yet here we are discussion how terrain affects classes. It's a negligible topic at best. If you are put in a situation where the class you are fighting has an advantage (like a disciple on a mountain) then it's your own fault for getting put in that situation.

 

[Demonxman]

I know, I've fought a necro while they were underwater and I was forced to use plaguebomb (to no real effect) meh, necro in water > any other caster spec. yea

 

[arcanegrove]

Erm, as a lvl 20 dragoon, I can almost kill a 49 wizard. Having trouble believing any thing higher can't kill them. Infact, I love it when a class like wizard and geo gets complained about, when a lvl 20 goon can nearly( nearly meaning 2 hearts to kill) kill them.

I really like where caster specs are right now.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

go underwater and caster fireball is useless. the disciple must have sucked, and the pally must not have known how to play his class or maybe these guys aren't max level.

Lies. You can't dodge fireball in water, and the caster doesn't miss unless he's blind. Bringing us back to, there is no gap closer for the "caster-killers". In water, it's just hitting targets with fireball without the pesky fire ticks

 

[vudani]

I know better than to put myself in that situation.

Thanks for proving my point when you intended to refute it.

 

[Dielan9999]

Thanks for proving my point when you intended to refute it.

Why would a range class purposefully fight a paladin in a 5x5 space? There's a difference between OP and stupidity.

Edit: Looking back, if the player playing the caster was much better than the pally, the caster stands a chance of winning. Since they do massive ammounts of damage, and the paladin does not. If anything the pally would be crippled upon the caster's death. In no way should one class be completely UNABLE to beat another, some matchups should just make it harder for the disadvantaged class.

If you think that's wrong, than you shouldn't be posting suggestions.

 

[Aetosion]

Something that should be taken into account is the strategy of the two combatants.

Pair a Wizard who spams fireballs and a Ninja who plays his class well.
Ninja should win.

Pair a Wizard who has a strong combo and takes terrain into account to use Blink to the best of his ability, bolts AND megabolts dependant on replenish cd, and fireball to finish off the opponent - versus that same Ninja.
Wizard should win.

Pair a Necro that rotates his DoTs with Fireballs and Drainsoul, and a Paladin that likes to just thwack people with his sword.
Necro should win.

Pair a Necro that just fireballs, and a Paladin that watches his mana- self heals and distributes his combat skills economically and efficiently.
Paladin should win.



My one major problem with HC PVP is the lack of use of valid combination and situationally based attacks. As a long-time Wizard this isn't so much of a problem. I rotate the following if say, fighting a thief: Fireball->Bolt->Mbolt->Replenish->Run like hell-> Blink->Bolt->Mbolt (about 110 damage). If fighting a Dragoon, I may: Root->Bolt->Blink->fireball->Blink->Replenish->Mbolt->Bolt->Blink->Fireball (140 damage, but takes much more time, mana is an issue).

I agree that the problem isn't the casters, it's the proficiency of Rogues in killing them. A Ninja, if engaging a Wizard, should probably: Blackjack-> (One if speed is needed to catch up)->Smoke->Ablade->Garrote->Sword->Sword->Bolt->Kick->Sword-Sword (Deals in the ballpark of 130 damage and keeps the wizard silenced the entire time).

It's all about which order of skills works best in the given situation. I would do something completely different if fighting a theif in a 5v5 arena than I would in the wilderness 1v1 (watch the most recent tournament videos). The problem I often see, is the lack of skill variance used by melee classes, and the equally bothersome fireball spammers (Sidenote: Fireball is being completely changed with the upcoming edition of Heroes that comes after 1.2, once that spamming ability is gone, casters will be balanced).

It doesn't always come down to class matchups, it comes down to your mastery of your class, and familiarity with it. People that flip flop classes, and level up just to master one... meh. I can tell you that someone who has been playing Samurai for a long time, will fare much better than someone who just mastered it. Shoutout to Diffuse and victim130 . Sexy sammies.

 

[Demonxman]

Lies. You can't dodge fireball in water, and the caster doesn't miss unless he's blind. Bringing us back to, there is no gap closer for the "caster-killers". In water, it's just hitting targets with fireball without the pesky fire ticks

fireball damage is nulled when you're completely underwater

 

[Aetosion]

No it's not. It still does 18 base. With fire-protection IV armour, lava barely hurts me, and fireball ticks do nothing to me. I still feel the base damage from a fireball.