Suggestion Buff up classes, nerf op classes - Time to get some balance

[Diffuse]

Honestly I was a lvl 25 necromancer and with just drain soul and decay I was able to kill almost anyone incredibly fast without taking much damage myself. I think what you aren't factoring into the equation kevin is that a necro can just run turn and instantly apply decent damage and then continue running. Granted that only works against melee but it is incredibly powerful nonetheless.

Fireball at max level does about 180 or so damage I believe and drain soul at max level does about 130 damage with 65 healing. This means that fireball, an aimed skill, puts a 180 health difference between the caster and the opponent while drain soul puts a 195 difference between the two. Fireball has the advantage of a shorter cooldown and drainsoul has the advantage of not having to be aimed. Both are about even in my mind with fireball being slightly better due to having skills that allow free hits with it (icebolt, root and piggy).

If you think about it, within 21 seconds a beguiler will get about 2 bombs, 2 icebolts and 3 fireballs off assuming a very decent beguiler. This does approx 1200 damage (crazy I know). A necro however will do 3 drain souls, 1 decay, 2 poisons, 1 and a little bit plagues, 2-3 despairs. This does approx 900-950 damage and 200 healing. Add that to having almost 100 extra base health and an 80% reduction in damage for a little bit and I'd say its fair to say necros are doing fine on the damage and health scale compared to other specs. Note I even consider beguiler on the OP side and necros are keeping up.

Now, if we revert the drainsoul changes that pops the previous 900-950 damage to a good 1050 or 1100 with 275 healing which pushes necros past even beguilers.

A few notes about my post: I use beguilers as the counter example because I consider them the strongest caster atm. My formatting sucks. I'm mad at having no server up.

Edit: I forgot about rogues and warriors.

I agree with warriors being nerfed (mostly paladins and samurai) and rogues could use an armor buff to let them compete more with warriors but not have them overpower casters even worse than they already do. One being nerfed makes a lot of sense because speed boosts in minecraft pvp are insane.

Looking at the wiki it appears that only paladins really got much of a damage buff (5 to about 50 after the change to damage and according to wiki its like 65 or something now). That shit needs to be reverted.

 

[kevinlive]

-snip-

While I do agree with you, you're missing out that fireball has a heavy DoT.
Removing poison <-> buff decay and plague with the damage removed from poison.

The only classes hit and run would work on is paladin, 50/50 dreadknight and pyromancer.
All the other classes has either speedups, slows, roots, and other ranged damage. You were a lvl 50 necro while most people were still base classes, or low level specs. You can't compare a high level spec against base paths and low level specs that are yet to get those skills that help in these situations.

The 80% reduction has a very high warmup and uses almost half of your mana, I wouldn't advice using it.

 

[Diffuse]

While I do agree with you, you're missing out that fireball has a heavy DoT.
Removing poison <-> buff decay and plague with the damage removed from poison.

The only classes hit and run would work on is paladin, 50/50 dreadknight and pyromancer.
All the other classes has either speedups, slows, roots, and other ranged damage. You were a lvl 50 necro while most people were still base classes, or low level specs. You can't compare a high level spec against base paths and low level specs that are yet to get those skills that help in these situations.

The 80% reduction has a very high warmup and uses almost half of your mana, I wouldn't advice using it.

Fireball does 150 base damage + burn. I just assume the burn does around 30 because that's how it feels to me. I haven't tested the exact number.

I agree with remove poison mostly because its a hassle to get spider eyes and it slows down the gameplay of necromancers by adding in 1 extra DoT.

Hit and run works on paladins, dreadknights, dragoons (yes even they can have problems if you know how to abuse how jump works), samurai to a small extent (ONE OP), pyromancers, ninjas, runeblades to a small extent (ONE OP), bards somewhat (they will take lots of damage before they get their abilities up and are don't do enough damage to kill during their abilities), other casters (yes kiting them isn't a bad idea, more distance between = no range for bolt/root and its harder to hit fireballs and icebolts).

I was basing it on my experiences at around level 20 having fought and raped plenty of people that were specced due to drainsoul being OP.

The full combo I was using would take a solid 190ish mana (your full mana pool), so I suppose you are right on harmshield being very situational. I personally would use harmshield to help survive one and then start kiting away again.

 

[jazza411]

In my eyes Forcepush needs a buff not in damage, but in the distance it pushes you. Leeness and I did some tests and here are our results:

- Forcepush is extremely inconsistent.
- Lee forcepush from standing still does the same as knockback wooden sword.
- When a healer bandages forcepush does not move them.
- I forcepush lee he goes back 20 blocks.
- Lee forcepushes me I go back 5 blocks.

@Leeness can you post the link to the youtube clip?

 

[Leeness]

Spoke to Kainzo. Lag related. It has been better for me recently, though. Could do with perhaps a few extra blocks.

 

[Kainzo]

Ok pally is being revamped so changes made to it now would be irrelevant. A caster's fireball does do more damage however you forget that drainsoul restores health to the caster and it is impossible to miss unlike fireball. Also reverting it base to its previous state would be ridiculous. Decay and bolt are not skills that are supposed to be compared because they are very different. Necro deals with DOTs while Wizard deals with high insta damage with warmups. If you didn't notice wizard bolt now only does 185 damage and has a 1.5s warmup. Decay does not have a warmup. Also plague is very different than pulse. First of all plague is a far more powerful skill than pulse because it has the range of around 10-15 blocks and lacks a warmup. Pulse has a warmup of 1s and in order for it to be used effectively the caster must run into a group of people. Running into a group of people while being slowed because you are using a skill with a warmup normally does not turn out well for the caster. To summarize what i am trying to say it that necromancer is not underpowered in any way because they lack warmup on everything except for web. A necromancer could run near someone, aim in their general direction while spamming keys in order to get their dots off and then run away giggling while the other person starts to die very rapidly. I highly disagree with you. And i am not going to be surprised when you finally master caster and make the incredibly shocking decision to go necro.

Please for the love of GOD use paragraphs. @c12095 .....

 

[Oudaiesty]

What it seems like this game is going for is a cycle like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Though each has a chance to defeat its weakness based on the players pvp skills. I am a paladin and I kind of feel like Reckoning is too powerful of an attack. I like that it slows but it does a bit too much damage though it is one of the weakest AOE's.

I don't mind having an attack power nerf but we should at least get dem der buffs to make up for it at later levels.

So far from what I see Warriors beat healers, go toe to toe with Rouge (Defense vs Attack power exchange, Rogues hitting for far more than Warriors), Get killed by Casters a bit (close combat vs distance fighting). Though most of the complaints I see are from people who want the game balanced in their favor I do believe paladin is pretty tough to beat with the addition of reckoning. Though before hand paladins didn't have any ability to catch up to their opponents. Since I havent played with many of the other classes but fought them I can see how people could complain. But if they played paladin I believe their arguments would be different.

 

[kevinlive]

What it seems like this game is going for is a cycle like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Though each has a chance to defeat its weakness based on the players pvp skills. I am a paladin and I kind of feel like Reckoning is too powerful of an attack. I like that it slows but it does a bit too much damage though it is one of the weakest AOE's.

I don't mind having an attack power nerf but we should at least get dem der buffs to make up for it at later levels.

So far from what I see Warriors beat healers, go toe to toe with Rouge (Defense vs Attack power exchange, Rogues hitting for far more than Warriors), Get killed by Casters a bit (close combat vs distance fighting). Though most of the complaints I see are from people who want the game balanced in their favor I do believe paladin is pretty tough to beat with the addition of reckoning. Though before hand paladins didn't have any ability to catch up to their opponents. Since I havent played with many of the other classes but fought them I can see how people could complain. But if they played paladin I believe their arguments would be different.

Right now warrior specs, due to armor and attack damage buffs deals more effective damage than a rogue, and has more health. Right now, a warrior spec will always win a 1v1 against a rogue. A ranger might win, but there are much more factors into that.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Right now warrior specs, due to armor and attack damage buffs deals more effective damage than a rogue, and has more health. Right now, a warrior spec will always win a 1v1 against a rogue. A ranger might win, but there are much more factors into that.

Yeah thats definitely true, thats kind of why I felt bad about reckoning. It would be pretty difficult to rectify that situation without taking steps back in calibration. Cause Rogues generally have a decent advantage over Casters higher nuking damage and casters lack of armor makes for an ideal fight for rogues. Simply making rogues stronger would further hinder the casters chances. Lowering Warrior Hp Or increasing Rogue Hp could help the Warrior vs Rogue situation, since Rogues not only lack the hp but also the armor options of warriors.

 

[kevinlive]

Nerf warriors hp and damage, everyone goes happy.

 

[Diffuse]

Yeah thats definitely true, thats kind of why I felt bad about reckoning. It would be pretty difficult to rectify that situation without taking steps back in calibration. Cause Rogues generally have a decent advantage over Casters higher nuking damage and casters lack of armor makes for an ideal fight for rogues. Simply making rogues stronger would further hinder the casters chances. Lowering Warrior Hp Or increasing Rogue Hp could help the Warrior vs Rogue situation, since Rogues not only lack the hp but also the armor options of warriors.

Improving a rogues armor would help them fight warriors but would do nothing against casters which is why I suggest that be the way to go when buffing them.

Also don't forget about divine stun or whatever the fuck its called that stuns for 3 seconds.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Nerf warriors hp and damage, everyone goes happy.

If done correctly it would help but it would make more sense to nerf damage more so than HP only because thats the point of warriors. The initial intent of Rogues damage was to be more effective than Warriors so dwarfing damage would be more suitable to the gameplay style of the classes.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Improving a rogues armor would help them fight warriors but would do nothing against casters which is why I suggest that be the way to go when buffing them.

Also don't forget about divine stun or whatever the fuck its called that stuns for 3 seconds.

Improving rogue armor would defeat the primary reasons for picking warrior over warrior. The gameplay style of rogue would be faster damage per second while being able to act under pressure of frequent attack would be the warrior mantra, hence the provision of armor selection. Rock, Paper scissors basically assures that the player class distribution is diverse.

Edit: Oh and yes devine stun is pretty intense haha intermittent freezing and slowing is quite powerful though I can never really catch some caster classes (Blink, piggify, confuse and the like lol)

 

[kevinlive]

If done correctly it would help but it would make more sense to nerf damage more so than HP only because thats the point of warriors. The initial intent of Rogues damage was to be more effective than Warriors so dwarfing damage would be more suitable to the gameplay style of the classes.

A goon ain't supposed to take 30 hits before you finally kill him, therefore hp needs to be nerfed aswell.

 

[Oudaiesty]

A goon ain't supposed to take 30 hits before you finally kill him, therefore hp needs to be nerfed aswell.

Haha I will admit that Goons are pretty freaking hard to kill but in lieu of their lessened defense their ability to use positioning as a means of gaining an advantage is handy. As a paladin it takes me far more hits to kill a goon than many of the rogue specs but I manage due to my superior armor and Layhands (Goons also do more damage and have more damaging skills.

I say rogues could definitely use more Hp though too much more and the ratio is ruined.

 

[Diffuse]

Improving rogue armor would defeat the primary reasons for picking warrior over warrior. The gameplay style of rogue would be faster damage per second while being able to act under pressure of frequent attack would be the warrior mantra, hence the provision of armor selection. Rock, Paper scissors basically assures that the player class distribution is diverse.

Edit: Oh and yes devine stun is pretty intense haha intermittent freezing and slowing is quite powerful though I can never really catch some caster classes (Blink, piggify, confuse and the like lol)

Well I for one believe that adding a piece of chainmail or two to the rogue classes wouldn't be that bad. Yes, you do risk running into ninjas and runeblades being closer to samurai than we would like but for balance I'm willing to take that risk.

Note this is only as far as buffing rogues. Rogues imo don't even need any buffing but rather warriors need some nerfing.

When you say you can't catch some casters do you mean they run away or they kite you? Because with the tankiness of paladins you should be able to eventually get in melee range due to a mistake or just bad terrain and from that point its over for the caster. And if its them just escaping from you I consider that a win lol.

Also its less an issue of HP as it is an issue of armor reducing damage significantly. I believe a paladin gets something like 68% damage reduction or something when fully armored.

 

[macura]

Please for the love of GOD use paragraphs. @c12095 .....

Fixed it

 

[Kainzo]

Nerf warriors hp and damage, everyone goes happy.

You arent providing specifics - you're providing blank statements - if you want to be taken seriously, give exact numbers, side by side comparisons and I'm not even joking... graphs/charts.

The more FACTS you have the more OBJECTIVE you are. Subjectivity is ignored here.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Well I for one believe that adding a piece of chainmail or two to the rogue classes wouldn't be that bad. Yes, you do risk running into ninjas and runeblades being closer to samurai than we would like but for balance I'm willing to take that risk.

Note this is only as far as buffing rogues. Rogues imo don't even need any buffing but rather warriors need some nerfing.

When you say you can't catch some casters do you mean they run away or they kite you? Because with the tankiness of paladins you should be able to eventually get in melee range due to a mistake or just bad terrain and from that point its over for the caster. And if its them just escaping from you I consider that a win lol.

Also its less an issue of HP as it is an issue of armor reducing damage significantly. I believe a paladin gets something like 68% damage reduction or something when fully armored.

Casters of any class don't really have much of a problem dealing with warrior's high armor capabilities, Especially paladin. Armor cannot protect from non-physical damage so thats where the R-p-s (rock paper scissors) comes into play. What you would be doing is surrendering that function. fighting Pallies? Send in the wizards! Fighting Wizards? throw some rogues at em!

 

[Diffuse]

You arent providing specifics - you're providing blank statements - if you want to be taken seriously, give exact numbers, side by side comparisons and I'm not even joking... graphs/charts.

The more FACTS you have the more OBJECTIVE you are. Subjectivity is ignored here.

A paladin has 9 armor points equating to 72% damage reduction.

A ninja has 4 armor points equating to 32% damage reduction.

The paladin has 1180 health, the ninja 900.

The ninja swings for 107 reduced by 72% equating to 30 per swing approx. The paladin swings for 67 reduces by 32% equating to 46 approx.

Now the ninja is hitting for 30, the paladin for 46. The paladin has 1180 hp while the ninja has 900. It will take the paladin 20 swings to kill the ninja and the ninja 40 to kill the paladin.

Now we assume the ninja uses eviscerate, 3 kicks and a blitz (rare but it happens). This reduces the paladin to 569 hp. It will now take the ninja only 19 swings to kill the paladin!

Now we assume the paladin uses bash and strike once each. This brings the ninja down to 705 hp. It will now take the paladin 16 swings to kill the ninja.

Clearly the paladin wins, but not by much of a margin right? Well we are forgetting that the paladin never used his slow or stun which would clearly put the paladin FAR in the lead. If the paladin uses a knockback sword he might even get a pray off. The ninja really no longer has a chance.

My math is probably wrong but whatevs.