Suggestion Buff up classes, nerf op classes - Time to get some balance

[Oudaiesty]

If you're too ignorant to read through the thread you can leave, please.

No need to get too upset, we're doing this for the games sake haha you don't want to be looked upon as short tempered.

 

[Thebeast]

Kevinlive, I would like to know how you define OP.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Kevinlive, I would like to know how you define OP.

Haha thats purely Subjective Lol and you know it.

 

[macura]

@kevinlive I think that the main problem with this thread is that you are asking for massive buffs for your class while at the same time attempting to nerf all of the others. On top of this you have no idea what the status of your class (necro) is because you are only a basic caster. You cannot complain about changes of other specs that have occurred this map without experiencing pvp with or against the spec. I'm pretty sure everything is OP when you only have fireball. The knowledge that you are going off of is what the skills and stats are on paper, not how they are actually used.

 

[werwew19]

@kevinlive I think that the main problem with this thread is that you are asking for massive buffs for your class while at the same time attempting to nerf all of the others. On top of this you have no idea what the status of your class (necro) is because you are only a basic caster. You cannot complain about changes of other specs that have occurred this map without experiencing pvp with or against the spec. I'm pretty sure everything is OP when you only have fireball. The knowledge that you are going off of is what the skills and stats are on paper, not how they are actually used.

If everything is op when someone only has fireball then why not give them more skills.

 

[kevinlive]

@kevinlive I think that the main problem with this thread is that you are asking for massive buffs for your class while at the same time attempting to nerf all of the others. On top of this you have no idea what the status of your class (necro) is because you are only a basic caster. You cannot complain about changes of other specs that have occurred this map without experiencing pvp with or against the spec. I'm pretty sure everything is OP when you only have fireball. The knowledge that you are going off of is what the skills and stats are on paper, not how they are actually used.

If I'd be asking for nerfs that would help my class I would be asking for rogue nerfs, not warrior nerfs. I've played a lot of necro on the last map, I know how the class works out and I can mimic the battles with lower damage.
I have played most specs, I have mastered all base paths. So please, go and fetch your arguments before you come up with bullshit like that.


Massive buffs for "my class"?
I've been a rogue for 3 weeks, I've been constantly switching from rogue, to healer, to caster. If I'd be asking for buffs for "my class", I'd be asking for ninja buffs.

"attempting to nerf all of the others"
I'm asking for a revert of a buff that all warrior classes got, they are currently too strong. I was asking for a iceball nerf because the 5 sec slow was making rogues unable to get close to you, ask any specced rogues.

"You cannot complain about changes of other specs that have occurred this map without experiencing pvp with or against the spec. I'm pretty sure everything is OP when you only have fireball."
I have never PvP'd as a caster this map, except shooting fireballs from a window in my town.

"The knowledge that you are going off of is what the skills and stats are on paper, not how they are actually used."
Like I said earlier, I've been almost every class. I know how they work, and small numbers on damage doesn't change my knowledge.

"I think that the main problem with this thread is that you are asking for massive buffs for your class(necro)"
I was asking for a revert of the drainsoul nerf, which I kinda talked down with Diffuse earlier.
Why I was asking for a revert? Because Diffuses analyzes about the skill was done through him PvP'ing as a lvl 25 necro against rogues, warriors, casters, rogue specs without their anti-caster skills. He was one of the first to reach lvl 50, and he was the first to reach lvl 50 necro.


My other idea(which you ignored), was to remove poison and divide the dmg into necro's two other DoTs, poison had much long range, so is that a buff?

I've talked with people, I've studied classes for days. I've been most classes, and mastered a good amount of them. So please, don't give me this shit.

 

[c12095]

@kevinlive

You don't want "shit" posted on here, maybe you should try opening your eyes and seeing that other players aren't the ones posting "shit". You have numerous players countering your arguments, and the majority of your responses have been half assed beginning and ending with an insult to the poster. You want to be taken seriously? Quit being an ass to people trying to counter an argument. You have an inflated ego currently and anyone in this thread that disagrees is automatically wrong in your book.

This thread is pathetic and I am taking nothing you say seriously until you change your attitude on this whole subject. That does not mean you have to change your viewpoint, so don't try and twist words, I want you to be able to respectfully and logically explain your side, with numbers and examples to back you up, not this "I have been all classes I know what i'm talking about" crap, that doesn't fly. You need to be able to show and prove your points, we don't take your word for this stuff until you have proven you really do know what your talking about. At this point, with all these counters to your argument, it is VERY clear you don't know for sure what your talking about until you prove yourself right, not because you think yourself right.

 

[jbird112233]

dragoons don't need a Nerf. if you think other wise plz tell my why you think they need a nerf.

 

[kevinlive]

dragoons don't need a Nerf. if you think other wise plz tell my why you think they need a nerf.

They are a mobility class, yet they 1v1 everything except a few number of classes. Did they do this last map? No.

 

[kevinlive]

All of these nerf's seem based off of a "oh he killed me so its OP" kind of attitude. This thread is honestly pretty stupid.

You got the same attitude, trying to protect that class.

PLEASE, Tell me how this makes sense?

 

[kevinlive]

@kevinlive

You don't want "shit" posted on here, maybe you should try opening your eyes and seeing that other players aren't the ones posting "shit". You have numerous players countering your arguments, and the majority of your responses have been half assed beginning and ending with an insult to the poster. You want to be taken seriously? Quit being an ass to people trying to counter an argument. You have an inflated ego currently and anyone in this thread that disagrees is automatically wrong in your book.

This thread is pathetic and I am taking nothing you say seriously until you change your attitude on this whole subject. That does not mean you have to change your viewpoint, so don't try and twist words, I want you to be able to respectfully and logically explain your side, with numbers and examples to back you up, not this "I have been all classes I know what i'm talking about" crap, that doesn't fly. You need to be able to show and prove your points, we don't take your word for this stuff until you have proven you really do know what your talking about. At this point, with all these counters to your argument, it is VERY clear you don't know for sure what your talking about until you prove yourself right, not because you think yourself right.

Up to this point, @Diffuse and @Oudaiesty was the only persons to make any kind of non bashing/half biased quote argument that I've replied to, and if you reread those posts, do you see the same "high ego" replies? I agreed with some of his points, and disagreed with some other points.

These are the arguments that I have gotten, biased ones. If you look at the other non biased suggestion I've replied without an ego:

"Ok pally is being revamped so changes made to it now would be irrelevant.

A caster's fireball does do more damage however you forget that drainsoul restores health to the caster and it is impossible to miss unlike fireball. Also reverting it base to its previous state would be ridiculous.

Decay and bolt are not skills that are supposed to be compared because they are very different. Necro deals with DOTs while Wizard deals with high insta damage with warmups. If you didn't notice wizard bolt now only does 185 damage and has a 1.5s warmup. Decay does not have a warmup.

Also plague is very different than pulse. First of all plague is a far more powerful skill than pulse because it has the range of around 10-15 blocks and lacks a warmup. Pulse has a warmup of 1s and in order for it to be used effectively the caster must run into a group of people. Running into a group of people while being slowed because you are using a skill with a warmup normally does not turn out well for the caster.

To summarize what i am trying to say is that necromancer is not underpowered in any way because they lack warmup on everything except for web. A necromancer could run near someone, aim in their general direction while spamming keys in order to get their dots off and then run away giggling while the other person starts to die very rapidly. I highly disagree with you. And i am not going to be surprised when you finally master caster and make the incredibly shocking decision to go necro." "
Did I reply with a bash, or high ego on this one? No, but still, look at the last paragraph.



"I wonder about the people that are complaining about warriors are actually rouges, saying that rouges are underpowered. At the start of the map a very large amount of people went rouge and they were dealing a ton of damage. If warriors do have to be nerfed nerf the damage only for the fact that warriors have the armour and rouges have the damage. But dont nerf one and buff the other."
Right here I was starting to get annoyed by people stating things I didn't say.



"I use it all the time to push the flow of the battle in the way I want. Its the only way to catch dragoons. If you take one away from me because "i move too fast" then you're basically saying only dragoons and wizards should be allowed any movement modifiers. I use One only one time during a fight.... if you increase the cooldown or decrease the time it wont have any effect besides making me switch to alchemist so i can make speed potions.
*edit* forgot about runeblade, but I guess you want that nerfed too*

To me the entire thread is just you complaining because you're a caster and get killed by warriors when you're standing still. Seeing as you are asking for nerfs across the board.
Why not just ask for the classes that are too weak to be brought up a bit? I'm tired of seeing nerfs hitting 3 to 4 classes in a month and 1 getting buffed, and that class being waaaaaaaaaay stronger because of the other 4 nerfs."
Again, stating things I never said. Making stuff up, defending his class. How do you expect me to handle it when most of the arguments are like this.



" I think that the main problem with this thread is that you are asking for massive buffs for your class while at the same time attempting to nerf all of the others. On top of this you have no idea what the status of your class (necro) is because you are only a basic caster. You cannot complain about changes of other specs that have occurred this map without experiencing pvp with or against the spec. I'm pretty sure everything is OP when you only have fireball. The knowledge that you are going off of is what the skills and stats are on paper, not how they are actually used."

These are the arguments where I've been using a rather negative tone, most, if not all of them are commenting on me, my "class", and how I pvp. And then again, most of that is incorrect or purely made up.

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

Imo rogues need either an hp buff or dmg buff. As a master ninja I have relative nuking ability against casters yet they can still beat me, however as it stands rogues don't stand a chance against warrior specs. Increase hp and some damage. Ie return ninja base damage back to where it was increase runeblade hp. And increase hp for bards. That should help. Warriors should only beat rogues by a small margin, not with 4 hearts remaining.

 

[Oudaiesty]

I'm going to make a nice little application so that everyone can see what every class is doing currently. (Actual numbers)

 

[MajDeath]

dragoons don't need a Nerf. if you think other wise plz tell my why you think they need a nerf.

high armor, high damage. no more reason needed

 

[MrPapodopolus]

They are a mobility class, yet they 1v1 everything except a few number of classes. Did they do this last map? No.

Dragoons havent gotten any new skills. since last map...The only change is what would be equivilent of last map to a .5 damage increase, and a removal of charge. Dragoons are by far the weakest warrior in terms of damage output. They cannot kill any other warrior classes in a 1v1

 

[jbird112233]

They are a mobility class, yet they 1v1 everything except a few number of classes. Did they do this last map? No.

they did do this last map. they can 1v1 any rouge class, but they cant 1v1 any other warrior classes. casters is a 50 50 fight.

 

[Falker57]

@kevinlive

You don't want "shit" posted on here, maybe you should try opening your eyes and seeing that other players aren't the ones posting "shit". You have numerous players countering your arguments, and the majority of your responses have been half assed beginning and ending with an insult to the poster. You want to be taken seriously? Quit being an ass to people trying to counter an argument. You have an inflated ego currently and anyone in this thread that disagrees is automatically wrong in your book.

This thread is pathetic and I am taking nothing you say seriously until you change your attitude on this whole subject. That does not mean you have to change your viewpoint, so don't try and twist words, I want you to be able to respectfully and logically explain your side, with numbers and examples to back you up, not this "I have been all classes I know what i'm talking about" crap, that doesn't fly. You need to be able to show and prove your points, we don't take your word for this stuff until you have proven you really do know what your talking about. At this point, with all these counters to your argument, it is VERY clear you don't know for sure what your talking about until you prove yourself right, not because you think yourself right.

His bashing was a response to other players bashing. Most of the people are saying that he just want his class buffed and others nerfed. Why don't those people actually provide some actual factual evidence as to why warrior classes are not op. I don't think Rogue classes should necessarily be buffed but warrior classes should certainly be nerfed. These buffs came all of the sudden and were pretty drastic. Many classes went from up to op like dragoon. Dragoons are slightly op, not too much just slightly, but I believe they are fine for right now. Pallys are pretty op but need to be revamped and Sammys are op with 2 hearts of a dot alone on me a pallys. I don't know the actual numbers but I can check it out later. Dks are really upin the air. I havnt pvpd much.

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

OK bullshit aside. If a caster keeps the distance they will beat rogue, yet if rogue closes the distance they kill caster. But no matter how you slice it, rogues don't beat warriors. Making the warrior path more powerful. Give rogues high damage medium hp and low armor, warriors low damage, slightly higher hp than rogue, and better armor.

Here is how armor should go per class, healer/caster mainly leather, rogues mainly chain, warriors iron and diamond. Sammy is the closest thing to a rogue in the warrior path, so chain makes since for them. But each rogue class should have at least 2 pieces of chain. that way we can tank some damage instead of being squashed.

If anyone has played ninja before they will tell you that they do a lot of damage, but can't take a lot. If they get caught by warriors, death ensues, quickly. So armor, along with slight dmg buffs will keep it balanced. Casters will still have armor mitigating skills against rogues, and if the distance is kept caster can still win. However if a rogue meets a warrior, they still stand a chance. @c12095. Does that make since? Hard to explain, I am currently at work.

 

[Falker57]

Dragoons havent gotten any new skills. since last map...The only change is what would be equivilent of last map to a .5 damage increase, and a removal of charge. Dragoons are by far the weakest warrior in terms of damage output. They cannot kill any other warrior classes in a 1v1

Did you forget about the skills stam decrease like cleave??

 

[Joka10]

OP, UP, and Balanced are all based around the personal experiences and opinions of the user making the statement... Nobody will ever agree enough for something to be called "balanced" by a general consensus. People will not want to see their own class nerfed. They will not want to see other classes be buffed. They don't want to hear that the class they kill all the time is underpowered, because it makes them feel less accomplished. They don't want to hear that the class that killed them is not overpowered, because it makes them feel weak. All of it is an opinion, and as such, there will never be a time when everyone agrees.

As far as my personal opinion goes, though, I feel that the balance team isn't really doing much at all. I agree with Kevin's incredulocity at the server having a community-run balance team. Some of the most active, violent PvPers on the server are on the balance team. They can say "Oh, I'm gonna look at this from a totally technical perspective and not give my own class any special buffs, or avoid nerfs to it", but even if they mean it when they say that, there is just a natural, subconcious bias at work. There will not be balance when everyone is somehow trying to keep their own class how they like it.

However, the other staff are busy with other things, and throwing a bunch of people out of the community to work on balance isn't really feasible, as far as I can tell. I feel that the system still needs to revolve around the community for this reason. However, it could be improved.

Currently, the balance team consists of only a few members. These are people who have applied for and been accepted to the job. They were not elected by the community (maybe some of their friends supported them, but beyond that, I doubt anyone would have unanimously got the job in a vote), and thus they do not truly represent the community. However, their opinions are supposed to. This is similar to the idea of virtual representation that came up during the British Empire. Parliament was supposed to represent every citizen in the empire, yet there were no representatives from America, India, Australia, or really any of the far-flung colonies. The people in Parliament spoke for them, yet the citizens of the empire did not actually have any say in what Parliament said, if that makes any sense.

The balance team, to my knowledge, is organized in a similar fashion. Their ideas on balance are supposed to represent the ideas of the entire community, yet they only represent certain portions. In a way, the current system is even worse than that of the old Parliament, because the 'certain portions' members of the balance team represent didn't even vote for them. The fact that they get a say at all is purely coincidental.

To boil it down to one point, the community's opinions are not nearly thoroughly represented in the balance team, even though it is 'community driven'.

I suggest that a much more democratic approach be taken. Rather than having the people who configure classes be the same ones who decide how to configure them, let the community decide. From a purely theoretical perspective, that is how the current system is supposed to work. The balance team are supposed to read the community's suggestions and act on them. This is done to an extent; some threads do get a lot of attention. However, many threads, despite their popularity, do not get any attention from the balance team at all, and some threads don't even get attention from the community.

I feel that there needs to be a much more condensed area for balance suggestions to be made. This is the system I propose:

• A new section on the forums is set up called "Balance", strictly for balance discussion. It works like any other forum. Users post a suggestion about Balance (with a poll included (this is required)), for others to share their opinions in.
• If a thread has at least 20(maybe a different number) votes cast in it, it is to be monitored by the balance team. If a certain majority is reached, the balance team are to act on it, as long as it is actually possible, without contributing their own opinion in any form other than a vote inside the thread in question. Thus, it will be the entire community's say (or at least that of all those who vote) as to what is changed, and not the potential bias of members of the balance team.
• Outstandingly controversial topics are to be stickied, and brought to the wider attention of the playerbase through various means. Upon some decision, the balance team are to modify the config as dictated by the community.

This system would guarantee that every player willing to actually cast a vote would get a say in what changes are made. Those who choose not to vote do not get a say. However, this is their own fault, whereas now, this is not neccessarily true. If they are unhappy with changes made, that's their own problem, as they didn't contribute.

I'm not accusing the balance team of corruption. It is possible that there is a good bit in there, as, theoretically, if the general consensus of the community were actually being taken into account, we would have reached a sort of middle ground where people were, for the most part, generally satisfied. Mostly, though, I think the biggest issue in the balance team is apathy. Nothing seems to change despite the clamoring mobs.

I think that, even if the system I suggested is not implemented, there should at least be a punishment for the apathy/inactivity of the balance team. When changes are asked for, they should be added, and I just don't see this happening right now.

Note: I haven't read through nearly all of this thread. It's possible something like this has already been suggested, but if so, that just means more people want it.


Tl;dr: I can't really think of a way to condense this down into the ten word sentences tl;dr'rs seem to operate in...