Suggestion Bard - Ninja

[dragonzero39]

Master Bard with diamond sword = 56 damage.
Master Ninja with diamond sword = 50 damage.
?

 

[malikdanab]

Ninja's dmg was changed for backstab. All the rogues have higher base melee dmg than ninja. IMO Bard is in need of a rework like the other rogues. ATM it's not very "rogue-like."

 

[Eldrylars]

Master Bard with diamond sword = 56 damage.
Master Ninja with diamond sword = 50 damage.
?

Bard Max damage with a Music disc and Warsong 93 front+back
Ninja Max damage with a Diamond sword from the back 193 + stun, 50 from the front.

Bard has medium high damage, medium armor, support..
Ninja is high damage, high mobility, low armor, offense.

Sure they come from the same path but you are comparing bananas to pineapples.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Bard still does 93dmg with warsong? Fuck me. 2 silences and a slow that lasts for days too. I honestly don't understand why Bard is so underplayed.

 

[Dakinara]

Bard still does 93dmg with warsong? Fuck me. 2 silences and a slow that lasts for days too. I honestly don't understand why Bard is so underplayed.

plus cool sounds when you use abilities. what gives people?

 

[Eldrylars]

Bard still does 93dmg with warsong? Fuck me. 2 silences and a slow that lasts for days too. I honestly don't understand why Bard is so underplayed.

Because everyone who plays it realizes it no better then any other support in it's own way.

 

[Eldrylars]

plus cool sounds when you use abilities. what gives people?

Lol, I have literally been yelled at several times to turn off the damn speakers due to accelerando's drum beats by my wife

 

[dragonzero39]

I'm not talking about skills, I'm talking about running up and hitting someone with a sword. A Bard should not do more natural damage with a diamond sword than a ninja. @Kainzo thoughts?

 

[Jack_Reacher]

A Bard should not do more natural damage with a diamond sword than a ninja

Ninja's new changes are significant and should be taken into account. See Eldry's post above.

 

[Dakinara]

yep, ninja is very cool and interesting class now, but if you try to out left click someone face to face you will probably lose to basically every other class.

 

[LordZelkova]

yep, ninja is very cool and interesting class now, but if you try to out left click someone face to face you will probably lose to basically every other class.

That was the point of the patch. Ninja could left click many classes to death due to high damage. The change makes them rely on actually using backstab. Doing more damage and stunning the enemy

 

[Kainzo]

I agree that the bard damage (especially with swords) should not be equal to or more than a master ninja, however, all things must be taken into account.

Expect a bard re-vamp soon btw.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Lol, I have literally been yelled at several times to turn off the damn speakers due to accelerando's drum beats by my wife

I suggest not becoming a Ranger then.

 

[RaekinTheBored]

Expect a bard re-vamp soon btw.

Noooo!

And my life will be shattered. : *(

Bard still does 93dmg with warsong? Fuck me. 2 silences and a slow that lasts for days too. I honestly don't understand why Bard is so underplayed.

The slow is now Slow II. I now have trouble catching every mobile class when they are slowed. Even tiny zombies can chase me down while slowed. Melodic Bindings = Successfully nerfed

 

[Danda]

I'm not talking about skills, I'm talking about running up and hitting someone with a sword. A Bard should not do more natural damage with a diamond sword than a ninja. @Kainzo thoughts?

Why not? Ninjas are assassins they're supposed to sneak around and suddenly attack. They're not supposed to be in direct conflict.

 

[Delfofthebla]

This is not a bug. Why did you post this in bug reporting? I'd like to request @gabizou , @Danda , or @Kainzo to move this thread to suggestions, if possible.

Dragon, I interpret you posting this here as a bit of a spit to the face. If you made this thread in bug reporting by accident, then pardon my outburst, but I am under the impression that you intentionally created this thread in bug reporting while knowing full well that it is not an actual "bug".

I would prefer you refrain from doing that in the future.

I'm not talking about skills, I'm talking about running up and hitting someone with a sword. A Bard should not do more natural damage with a diamond sword than a ninja. @Kainzo thoughts?

I disagree completely. What reasoning is there for having ninja always deal the highest sword damage? Because that's the way it's always been? Or what? If you have any particular reasoning I'd like to hear it.

But before that, I'd like to point out, that the Ninja revamp was done to place a emphasis on Backstabbing. Simply giving them high base damage and leaving it at that makes the class very boring and uninteresting in my opinion. I am a big advocate of unique and interesting playstyles, and the old Ninja just didn't have that going for it in standard fights. Sure, they had an "assassin role" as well, but it was greatly overshadowed by their ability to fight toe-to-toe with any other melee class.

My goal was to create a different playstyle that was more than just "run up to their face and spam left click + abilities". If you want to do large amounts of melee damage as a Ninja, you must be backstabbing. If you are not in a position to where you can backstab, you should be focusing on dealing ranged damage via your bow or via shuriken.

I'd like to take a snippet from my revamp post when I originally threw up the re-design in balance:

Old Ninja Class Assessment

• The Ninja can stand toe-to-toe with most melee in any given situation.
• The Ninja has complete and utter dominance over casters within an enclosed space.
• The Ninja is weak against casters within an open area.
• The Ninja has trouble "catching" other players, whether they be casters or other melee.
• The Ninja has an emphasis on stealth / initiation, but does not actually need to do either to perform his role.
• The Ninja cannot use his stealth based abilities for PvE.
• The Ninja is heavily influenced by the RNG factors of both Blackjack, as well as Backstab. Having favorable RNG guarantees his victory, while having an unfavorable RNG simply allows him to perform on an equal level as other classes.
• The Ninja does not have many traits that would be commonly found on the standard concept of a Ninja (such as Shuriken, high mobility, or other miscellaneous "tools".)
• The Ninja is a low skill, high reword class, with very few "combat" abilities. Players would often describe this as a "left click win class".

New Ninja Class Assessment

• The Ninja cannot stand toe-to-toe with most melee in any given situation. If he does not have favorable positioning, he must resort to using ranged attacks to keep his opponents at bay. If he is able to acquire a favorable position however, his ability to deal damage is superb.
• The Ninja will no longer have complete dominance over casters in a small space. He will still have the advantage, but he will likely take longer to achieve victory than he would in his previous state.
• The Ninja now has more tools to handle casters that are in an open area. While they still have the advantage, he is now more on an equal footing due to his increased mobility / evasive skill usage.
• The Ninja can now use his stealth based abilities for PvE.
• The Ninja still is not able to catch other players as much as he could, but I believe the situation is more favorable than it was previously.
• The Ninja has an emphasis on stealth / initiation, and must now actually use those tools to properly fulfill his role within a group.
• The Ninja no longer has any RNG abilities, and thus, his victory is not influenced by it.
• The Ninja is now, undoubtedly a "tool user". He must carry a bow, he must carry arrows, he must carry string, gunpowder, flint, and of course, a sword. The influx of required items will make him less potent when graveyard running, but also give him more interesting actions while participating in a fight.
• The Ninja is now a high skill, high reword class. He still has very few direct "combat" abilities, but that is offset by how he controls his character. He must be mobile, he must be agile, he must strike at key times. I believe this to provide a very interesting playstyle that is both fun and engaging. Players should no longer refer to it as a simple "left click win" class.

If you find that any of the points I've made within the "New Ninja Role Assessment" are invalid or undesirable, you are free to make a suggestion post. However, this is what we've wound up with, and the above points are the reasoning for heading in this direction.

however, all things must be taken into account.

Exactly. The fact of the matter is, the ninja still has the highest "potential" melee damage out of all classes. It is just that they can only reach those levels in certain situations. However, it is possible to reach those levels, and I can tell you right now, in a 1v1 sitaution vs. a Bard, a good Ninja will always win the fight.

yep, ninja is very cool and interesting class now, but if you try to out left click someone face to face you will probably lose to basically every other class.

Frontal left click damage is still sufficient for fighting ranged classes.

Why not? Ninjas are assassins they're supposed to sneak around and suddenly attack. They're not supposed to be in direct conflict.

Exactly.

Noooo!

And my life will be shattered. : *(

I have a feeling you'll appreciate the revamp.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Delf saves the world v2.0.

Seriously though, Ninjas actually have more damage output than they did before the revamp, you just need to be creative on how you deal said damage. Of course, some people's reaction to this is: " You mean I need to actually use skill to win a fight? I hate this server. You suck."
Good riddance, button mashers.

 

[dragonzero39]

What reasoning is there for having ninja always deal the highest sword damage?

Not a problem that they don't deal the highest. Let me quote myself a second time.

I'm not talking about skills,

A Bard should not do more natural damage with a diamond sword than a ninja.

This thread is not about the ninja revamp, its about the base sword damage between two specific classes.

So, as you stated

This is not a bug. Why did you post this in bug reporting? I'd like to request -SNIP- to move this thread to suggestions, if possible.

Dragon, I interpret you posting this here as a bit of a spit to the face.

It is a bug, Kainzo said it himself, "a Bard's sword shouldn't do as much as a Ninja." And no its not a spit in the face; I have no idea why you would assume that. I hold nothing against any other players.

 

[LordZelkova]

It is a bug, Kainzo said it himself, a Bard's sword shouldn't do as much as a Ninja. And no its not a spit in the face; I have no idea why you would assume that. I hold nothing against any other players.

Kainzo said:

I agree that the bard damage (especially with swords) should not be equal to or more than a master ninja

Notice the "I Agree" part?
This isnt a bug. Currently a bards diamond sword will do more than a ninja. Again, kainzo thinks that bard shouldnt do more, and bards will most likely lose any and all sword usage in the coming revamp, while gaining some kind of other thing (Skill reworks, better bow usage, that kind of stuff)

 

[RaekinTheBored]

and bards will most likely lose any and all sword usage in the coming revamp, while gaining some kind of other thing (Skill reworks, better bow usage, that kind of stuff)

Hold the phone! Bards are Jack-of-all-Trades and master of none. While yes, we should do less base damage than a ninja with a sword, I don't see any reason why we should lose 'any and all sword usage'. Remember, in most games (and presumably RL - I know this is a game) Bards use a sword or some type of finesse weapon (i.e. Rapier).

I mean, who has ever heard of someone dealing massive amounts of damage with a record? This is an interesting feature which I like, but if we remove the sword usage completely, does that mean we just 'forgot' our 20 levels of depending on them as Rogues? Don't forget, until recently, only swords could be used with Envenom.

Also, no one carries records/jukeboxes/note blocks besides other Bards. We'd basically be camping each other in DoD or other such events praying the other dies. Bard on Bard violence is not the answer!

tl;dr - Bards use swords. Always have, always should. 'Nuff said.