Anyone know what ethics are anymore?

[Sidgil]

THIS IS NOT MINECRAFT. THIS IS HEROCRAFT. THE RULES ARE DIFFERENT, THE MONSTERS ARE HARDCORE, AND THE WORLD IS OUT TO KILL YOU. STOP WHINING ABOUT IT.

 

[Regis]

I don't see how your constantly being killed by people with flint and steel.. I was attacked by someone and I bobbed and weaved till they got bored and left. Are you not paying attention to what you are doing or are you just that bad? Not only that but there is alot of areas that are isolated away that your barely ever bothered.

 

[Neotetro]

This is the internet. You won't find ethics here.

 

[Psychokhaos]

THIS IS NOT MINECRAFT. THIS IS HEROCRAFT. THE RULES ARE DIFFERENT, THE MONSTERS ARE HARDCORE, AND THE WORLD IS OUT TO KILL YOU. STOP WHINING ABOUT IT.

Woah man. Chillax with those caps.

This is the internet. You won't find ethics here.

*Looks at self*
:<

 

[Sidgil]

Woah man. Chillax with those caps.

*Looks at self*
:<

It needed to be said though. Caps are out of my system now

 

[Kainzo]

This is a hardcore RPG server. There will be groups of players who only want loot, money, levels, etc.
We're still working on making it more appealing to be a "Good" player but it's not something easily done. We've made giant strides for new players on this server and I think we are 100% on the right track.

Herocraft WANTS karma to play a role in every day crafting. The spoils of war are vast at the moment and the repercussions are very small in comparison. It is hard to put code in for moral choices that aren't easily abused, etc.

 

[Favith]

This is a hardcore RPG server. There will be groups of players who only want loot, money, levels, etc.
We're still working on making it more appealing to be a "Good" player but it's not something easily done. We've made giant strides for new players on this server and I think we are 100% on the right track.

Herocraft WANTS karma to play a role in every day crafting. The spoils of war are vast at the moment and the repercussions are very small in comparison. It is hard to put code in for moral choices that aren't easily abused, etc.

Very well put and an astute observation on why people do what they do (high reward for little risk/repercussion).

At the risk of showing my age I will say that the game I thought that best handled making choices matter and holding people accountable for their actions was Ultima Online (specifically pre-Trammel UO).

You could run around killing people all day long if that's what you wanted to do. You could steal from them. You could corpse camp them. You could say whatever string of nasty things you wanted to say as you were looting their hard earned ore/mob loot/money--whatever they had. You could offer them a resurrection and then, when the poor sap took it, you could kill them AGAIN. Nothing was forbidden and there were no mods/admins to cater to whiny "carebears" when you killed them.

However....

You kill someone (other than in a faction or guild war declaration setting) and they could report you for murder. After so many murder reports the name above your avatar turned red and you entered murderer status. You became a dreaded "red" and the community labeled you a PKer (Player Killer)--the dirtiest of early MMO terms!

What did it mean to be a PKer in early UO? For starters, you couldn't visit any of the established towns (save the one "evil" town) without getting insta-whacked by NPC guards. Your banking and NPC merchant choices were therefore VERY limited. On top of that, people could kill you without any repercussions (you couldn't report someone as a murder for killing you if you were a red). Perhaps the worst part about being a red (or the best, depending on who you asked) was the notoriety your red name brought you. People saw a red name out in the wilderness and the calls went out across multiple channels as to your location. Groups of anti-PK players would scramble to find you. It was a badge of honor, so to speak, among these "white knight" guilds to see who could kill the PKer first. And heaven forbid someone stumbled upon your house (in UO you could plant a house just about anywhere--much like in Minecraft). You'd literally have to move your home and all your stuff at like, 3am or some crazy time to avoid the anti-PK campers who were just waiting for you to show up. You couldn't do much PVE either. There were only so many dungeons to go to for good PVE and anytime a PKer was spotted in those dungeons they'd be hounded relentlessly by the anti-PKers. In later years UO implemented a much more brutal punishment for PKers--Stat Loss. You get killed while your name is red and you LOST stats (like Str, Wis, Dex, etc)--you had to work at gaining stats so losing stat points was a tough hit to take. So yeah, you could be a murderer in UO if you wanted but you were in for a tough life.

In the end, this system worked for everyone (mostly, anyway). PKers had the thrill of killing the "carebears" and enjoyed the spoils of all that dropped inventory loot. Anti-PKers had the fun of hunting down the PKers. Non-PVPers (Miners, PVEers and everyone else) would die to the PKers from time to time, but at least they knew they had some form of justice they could seek via murder reporting and the ability to inform the anti-PKers about the location of the "red" who just murdered them.

Some of the things UO did to counter senseless player killing were mechanic based but much of what kept player actions in check was community driven. I don't see that here, sadly. For example, when some poor sap gets senselessly murdered while cutting down trees in the wilderness and says something like "hey, why did you kill me?" in O chat--where is the anti-PK reaction? Where is the /msg from a "white knight" group asking the guy for the coords he was killed at and which direction did the killer travel? Do such groups even exist here? Did they on any of the previous maps? It'd be so easy to do since kill spam is advertised globally and you can look up each player (the killer and the killed) to see if it was a town war kill or an "innocent" getting murdered in the woods.

Like Kainzo said--murdering anyone and everyone you see is currently almost pure positive with zero negative results. You get his stuff, you get exp, and you get the fun of killing him. Kill enough people and you get an awesome title to show what a bad@## you are (don't even get me started on how bad the title system is and how it encourages the worst type of player behavior). And the answer given to anyone who even remotely voices any sort of complaint (however slight) about rampant, unchecked PKing in Herocraft is "It's a hardcore server!!! Don't like--leave!" While that's true (and I agree with much of the sentiment) I welcome any attempts by the dev team to make mindlessly killing people have some sort of consequence.

And you know what I'll say to the first PKer who whines about any such implemented consequences....."Hardcore works both ways. Don't like it.....leave."

And that's my old geezer gamer story/rant for the day, boys and girls.


TLR
Old man gamer tells a tale about how games and game communities used to handle PKers "back in the day". You young whippersnappers wouldn't understand and most of you who think yourselves "hardcore" by today's standards wouldn't be able to hack it "back in my day".

 

[Sidgil]

Very well put and an astute observation on why people do what they do (high reward for little risk/repercussion).

At the risk of showing my age I will say that the game I thought that best handled making choices matter and holding people accountable for their actions was Ultima Online (specifically pre-Trammel UO).

You could run around killing people all day long if that's what you wanted to do. You could steal from them. You could corpse camp them. You could say whatever string of nasty things you wanted to say as you were looting their hard earned ore/mob loot/money--whatever they had. You could offer them a resurrection and then, when the poor sap took it, you could kill them AGAIN. Nothing was forbidden and there were no mods/admins to cater to whiny "carebears" when you killed them.

However....

You kill someone (other than in a faction or guild war declaration setting) and they could report you for murder. After so many murder reports the name above your avatar turned red and you entered murderer status. You became a dreaded "red" and the community labeled you a PKer (Player Killer)--the dirtiest of early MMO terms!

What did it mean to be a PKer in early UO? For starters, you couldn't visit any of the established towns (save the one "evil" town) without getting insta-whacked by NPC guards. Your banking and NPC merchant choices were therefore VERY limited. On top of that, people could kill you without any repercussions (you couldn't report someone as a murder for killing you if you were a red). Perhaps the worst part about being a red (or the best, depending on who you asked) was the notoriety your red name brought you. People saw a red name out in the wilderness and the calls went out across multiple channels as to your location. Groups of anti-PK players would scramble to find you. It was a badge of honor, so to speak, among these "white knight" guilds to see who could kill the PKer first. And heaven forbid someone stumbled upon your house (in UO you could plant a house just about anywhere--much like in Minecraft). You'd literally have to move your home and all your stuff at like, 3am or some crazy time to avoid the anti-PK campers who were just waiting for you to show up. You couldn't do much PVE either. There were only so many dungeons to go to for good PVE and anytime a PKer was spotted in those dungeons they'd be hounded relentlessly by the anti-PKers. In later years UO implemented a much more brutal punishment for PKers--Stat Loss. You get killed while your name is red and you LOST stats (like Str, Wis, Dex, etc)--you had to work at gaining stats so losing stat points was a tough hit to take. So yeah, you could be a murderer in UO if you wanted but you were in for a tough life.

In the end, this system worked for everyone (mostly, anyway). PKers had the thrill of killing the "carebears" and enjoyed the spoils of all that dropped inventory loot. Anti-PKers had the fun of hunting down the PKers. Non-PVPers (Miners, PVEers and everyone else) would die to the PKers from time to time, but at least they knew they had some form of justice they could seek via murder reporting and the ability to inform the anti-PKers about the location of the "red" who just murdered them.

Some of the things UO did to counter senseless player killing were mechanic based but much of what kept player actions in check was community driven. I don't see that here, sadly. For example, when some poor sap gets senselessly murdered while cutting down trees in the wilderness and says something like "hey, why did you kill me?" in O chat--where is the anti-PK reaction? Where is the /msg from a "white knight" group asking the guy for the coords he was killed at and which direction did the killer travel? Do such groups even exist here? Did they on any of the previous maps? It'd be so easy to do since kill spam is advertised globally and you can look up each player (the killer and the killed) to see if it was a town war kill or an "innocent" getting murdered in the woods.

Like Kainzo said--murdering anyone and everyone you see is currently almost pure positive with zero negative results. You get his stuff, you get exp, and you get the fun of killing him. Kill enough people and you get an awesome title to show what a bad@## you are (don't even get me started on how bad the title system is and how it encourages the worst type of player behavior). And the answer given to anyone who even remotely voices any sort of complaint (however slight) about rampant, unchecked PKing in Herocraft is "It's a hardcore server!!! Don't like--leave!" While that's true (and I agree with much of the sentiment) I welcome any attempts by the dev team to make mindlessly killing people have some sort of consequence.

And you know what I'll say to the first PKer who whines about any such implemented consequences....."Hardcore works both ways. Don't like it.....leave."

And that's my old geezer gamer story/rant for the day, boys and girls.


TLR
Old man gamer tells a tale about how games and game communities used to handle PKers "back in the day". You young whippersnappers wouldn't understand and most of you who think yourselves "hardcore" by today's standards wouldn't be able to hack it "back in my day".

I love this idea, You have inspired me good sir, I shall accept your challenge, following the path of Ranger to track down the wicked and rain justice upon them.

 

[Kainzo]

Very well put and an astute observation on why people do what they do (high reward for little risk/repercussion).

At the risk of showing my age I will say that the game I thought that best handled making choices matter and holding people accountable for their actions was Ultima Online (specifically pre-Trammel UO).

You could run around killing people all day long if that's what you wanted to do. You could steal from them. You could corpse camp them. You could say whatever string of nasty things you wanted to say as you were looting their hard earned ore/mob loot/money--whatever they had. You could offer them a resurrection and then, when the poor sap took it, you could kill them AGAIN. Nothing was forbidden and there were no mods/admins to cater to whiny "carebears" when you killed them.

However....

You kill someone (other than in a faction or guild war declaration setting) and they could report you for murder. After so many murder reports the name above your avatar turned red and you entered murderer status. You became a dreaded "red" and the community labeled you a PKer (Player Killer)--the dirtiest of early MMO terms!

What did it mean to be a PKer in early UO? For starters, you couldn't visit any of the established towns (save the one "evil" town) without getting insta-whacked by NPC guards. Your banking and NPC merchant choices were therefore VERY limited. On top of that, people could kill you without any repercussions (you couldn't report someone as a murder for killing you if you were a red). Perhaps the worst part about being a red (or the best, depending on who you asked) was the notoriety your red name brought you. People saw a red name out in the wilderness and the calls went out across multiple channels as to your location. Groups of anti-PK players would scramble to find you. It was a badge of honor, so to speak, among these "white knight" guilds to see who could kill the PKer first. And heaven forbid someone stumbled upon your house (in UO you could plant a house just about anywhere--much like in Minecraft). You'd literally have to move your home and all your stuff at like, 3am or some crazy time to avoid the anti-PK campers who were just waiting for you to show up. You couldn't do much PVE either. There were only so many dungeons to go to for good PVE and anytime a PKer was spotted in those dungeons they'd be hounded relentlessly by the anti-PKers. In later years UO implemented a much more brutal punishment for PKers--Stat Loss. You get killed while your name is red and you LOST stats (like Str, Wis, Dex, etc)--you had to work at gaining stats so losing stat points was a tough hit to take. So yeah, you could be a murderer in UO if you wanted but you were in for a tough life.

In the end, this system worked for everyone (mostly, anyway). PKers had the thrill of killing the "carebears" and enjoyed the spoils of all that dropped inventory loot. Anti-PKers had the fun of hunting down the PKers. Non-PVPers (Miners, PVEers and everyone else) would die to the PKers from time to time, but at least they knew they had some form of justice they could seek via murder reporting and the ability to inform the anti-PKers about the location of the "red" who just murdered them.

Some of the things UO did to counter senseless player killing were mechanic based but much of what kept player actions in check was community driven. I don't see that here, sadly. For example, when some poor sap gets senselessly murdered while cutting down trees in the wilderness and says something like "hey, why did you kill me?" in O chat--where is the anti-PK reaction? Where is the /msg from a "white knight" group asking the guy for the coords he was killed at and which direction did the killer travel? Do such groups even exist here? Did they on any of the previous maps? It'd be so easy to do since kill spam is advertised globally and you can look up each player (the killer and the killed) to see if it was a town war kill or an "innocent" getting murdered in the woods.

Like Kainzo said--murdering anyone and everyone you see is currently almost pure positive with zero negative results. You get his stuff, you get exp, and you get the fun of killing him. Kill enough people and you get an awesome title to show what a bad@## you are (don't even get me started on how bad the title system is and how it encourages the worst type of player behavior). And the answer given to anyone who even remotely voices any sort of complaint (however slight) about rampant, unchecked PKing in Herocraft is "It's a hardcore server!!! Don't like--leave!" While that's true (and I agree with much of the sentiment) I welcome any attempts by the dev team to make mindlessly killing people have some sort of consequence.

And you know what I'll say to the first PKer who whines about any such implemented consequences....."Hardcore works both ways. Don't like it.....leave."

And that's my old geezer gamer story/rant for the day, boys and girls.


TLR
Old man gamer tells a tale about how games and game communities used to handle PKers "back in the day". You young whippersnappers wouldn't understand and most of you who think yourselves "hardcore" by today's standards wouldn't be able to hack it "back in my day".

Basically, we want the karma system from Ultima Online - I played with it, its a good system that had a lot of internal checks and balances. There were still assholes out there - but the majority of players were trusted to most extents.

 

[Sidgil]

Basically, we want the karma system from Ultima Online - I played with it, its a good system that had a lot of internal checks and balances. There were still assholes out there - but the majority of players were trusted to most extents.

I think a Karma system would be fantastic, but should be handled with care so that players cannot abuse it to harass each other.

 

[Kainzo]

http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/karma-system-conception.2475

 

[Dazureus]

http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/karma-system-conception.2475

Question: Why does this link me to the town thread for Jericho, from October of last year?

 

[TheTXLibra]

Herocraft is a cesspool of indecency and unethical practices, and I know I'm not the only victim. I took all the advice people offered when I made the mistake last time of going to Warsaw and I suffered the exact same fate. Does anyone know what ethics are anymore? Certainly not Herocraft's community.

Okay, to address several things in your post.

First and foremost, I hate pvp in minecraft, because I'm there to play Grownup Legos, not to play World of Warcraft. Nothing pisses me off more than getting killed when all I want to do is build pretty things. That said, it's MY problem, not THE GAME'S problem. PVP is a common element in today's game systems, and finding new and creative ways to kill each other is a fact of life. If there's a loophole, it will be exploited, and if there's a way to kill you, you can bet someone will try at some point.

Secondly, your implication that Herocraft, as an entity, has no ethics, is a cesspool of indecency and unethical practices, is as insulting as it is inaccurate. I have known the staff here for close to 2 years now. I have watched this game evolve every step of the way, and have come to intimately know the mindset of the admins and the rest of the staff, and I will state unequivocally that this is perhaps the MOST ETHICAL, hardest-working, most decent set of folks on a game I have ever had the pleasure to meet. And being an oldschool gamer, I've met a LOT, both on and off the computer.

Kainzo (aka Chief) doesn't grant special favors, he doesn't allow "friends" or donors to cheat. He works LITERALLY around the clock to ensure that exploits and bugs that would give one player an unfair advantage over the others is filled. He has refused to give donors perks that would unbalance the game, he has worked night and day now for two years to design a system that, while not perfect, is a unique creation and an ever-evolving product, to be as fair to everyone as possible. Even staff, whom aren't allowed to use their powers or even their immortality unless using it in a specific staff-action. If they're just playing out there in the normal world, they do not get to be immortal, give themselves coin, blocks, etc. Period. Ask yourself how many servers out there are so strict with the powers that be.

Now, the fact that you died due to pvp is frustrating to you. I understand this, and I empathize with it, because I hate it when I die too. It's like a slap in the face. But the fact is, someone killing you (or me) in the game is NOT an indication of a lack of ethics, morals, or decency on the part of the game or the staff, or the playerbase as a whole. It is an indication of your lack of skill at PVP and ignorance of how to use the system to your best advantage to survive. I suck at PVP. I freely admit it. And I probably always will because I'd rather build than fight. You may or may not feel the same way. But that does not give you license to insult the community here as a whole.

If you are having a problem surviving, then I suggest you do what the entire system is designed to have you do: find a group within the community you can join, who can help protect you, give you sanctuary, and make a home with them. Try to learn from this experience, and make yourself a better player, and a better friend within the community, instead of posting implications of how the whole server is unethical and corrupt. Because the fact of the matter is, you are still very much speaking in ignorance at this point.

 

[Sidgil]

Heh, Grown up Legos, I can agree with that.

 

[Kainzo]

When people ask me, "What is minecraft?" - I tell them "Grownup legos, basically, and sometimes people smash your legso and you have to fend them off with a shoe."

 

[malmenca]

I feel like this is a hard core server. Clearly you know nothing of ethics, or maybe you're using a more modern version of it. Minecraft, and herocraft especially, is more of an early life sand box pvp game. It's based around basic human survival; medieval times. I'm fairly certain you didn't live back then, nor have your studied it apparently, therefore, you really have no basis to describe and define ethics.

I'm not about to give a history lesson, but the world was a much weirder place back then. Many powerful historical figures rose to power through ambition, savagery and their will to dominate and kill to get what they want. Herocraft is no different; it's a game that allows those of us who're a little more "beta" feel and act like we're "alphas". We can dominate like back in the good old days, where if someone brought up a rant like this, they'd be executed and fucked in public.

The point of my reply was to tell you you have a bad understanding of human ethics. It's a god damned video game, of course we won't go around killing people with iron swords in real life if they step near a house. We're not retarded, we're just bored gamers looking for a challenge. Fight back next time, or run away and learn to fight back another day.

#getfuckedy'all

 

[teddytazer]

When most players start herocraft they will find many higher level players killing them for no other reason then the /dtp kills to go up a number. As the first person to die on the server 200+ times I can testify that it was mostly the same guys who killed me were the same ones that power level the first few days. These players are troublesome at the start but later on you'll still see them camping graveyards and tracking level 11s. As for ethics its all optional, some players choose to attack people randomly, some track and kill the same people over and over and some only defend the home they live in.