Anyone know what ethics are anymore?

[Forim]

It's me again, everyone! You probably remember me from a previous rant and I apologize in advance for doing it again. This time I'm a bit more educated on Herocraft's community so I hope I don't come across as just someone with nothing to do but complain.

Ethics. The term was clearly left out of Herocraft's dictionary. The same thing that happened to me last time on Warsaw is now happening to others in the "safe" world. I see that you took my advice and made a minimum level for PvP, but it's apparently legal to use flint and steel or lava to kill people below the "noob threshold." While I can justify (over hours of thought) the idea of lighting someone on fire that's below level because they're trying to get you killed, just randomly killing people is wrong.

I returned to the server recently, several weeks after my first disappointment, hoping that this time I'd do it right. I soon recalled that the mobs are much tougher in Herocraft than regular Minecraft and died several times. Those were my fault, but two other cases that happened today show me that Herocraft has continued to be a group of savages who only seek to bring misery upon new blood.

Instance #1: I was walking around just outside the Nexus and landed a foot on someone's property. I realized it wasn't my place and I hurried to find an exit. Before even seeing a way out, I see a player with an iron sword attempting to assassinate me (I turned around to see him sneaking). Keep in mind I had no armor or weapon with me and was obviously lost, yet this guy wanted my head! And it wasn't even the property owner!

Instance #2: Just after instance #1, I found my way off someone's property and saw a forest in the distance. With a smile on my face, I made my way over to it. After downing a tree, I see that it's getting dark. Not feeling experienced enough to take on mobs, I seek refuge in a nearby hill. On this hill, I spot coal. What luck! But upon breaking it, I discover it is the anti-xray plugin disguising smooth stone. After that, I dig my way into the hill and put up a barrier and decide to AFK for less than a minute to let the night pass a little bit. Bad idea. I come back and find myself dead. I couldn't have been a mob, for I was buried, so it must have been someone abusing the fire/lava loophole to kill me when I was completely defenseless, just waiting for the creepers to stop spawning.

To conclude, I do understand that Herocraft is a "hardcore" server, but just because you can do something does not justify doing it. That's not hardcore, that's game-ruining. What drives you to do things like that? On most servers, such behavior is classified as griefing! Is it some built up rage because the same thing happened to you when you first joined? Do you have nothing better to do with your time than stop new players from getting on their feet? Do you not want any new players and that's your way of eliminating them? Herocraft is NOT a hardcore server. Herocraft is a cesspool of indecency and unethical practices, and I know I'm not the only victim. I took all the advice people offered when I made the mistake last time of going to Warsaw and I suffered the exact same fate. Does anyone know what ethics are anymore? Certainly not Herocraft's community.

 

[Iarbobray]

Imo most pvp'ers are assholes on this server. But why you are saying why herocraft has no ethics isn't why most people on herocraft have no ethics. I predict a flamewar on this thread.

 

[Forim]

Fair enough. No need to swear, btw. We can be civil here.

 

[Iarbobray]

Fair enough. No need to swear, btw. We can be civil here.

Couldn't think of another word strong enough. Sorry.

 

[Favith]

I agree with Larbobray here. It's not an ethics issue it's simply a matter of the kinds of people hardcore, open pvp realms tend to attract. For every player who enjoys the thrill and challenge of living, fighting and surviving in this kind of realm there are probably three who come just because they can grief and randomly kill anyone they wish.

Hopefully you can enjoy the rest of what HC offers (RP, town building, the Heroes plugin, etc) enough that you can overlook the homicidal maniacs who get their enjoyment from making you miserable.

 

[Forim]

I disagree. I couldn't find a single town without being killed. Hard to join what you can't even make it to.

 

[milkmeister]

Ok. Well first of all, there can't be no way to kill low level players, because otherwise, they could just run around and take people's stuff all day. If they are invincible to pvp, people are gonna start staying low levels just to keep that power. Secondly, your two examples are rather poor. In the first example, how do you know that the person wasn't living on the property you were on. For all you know, he thought you were a raider. He can't read your mind, and know that you are lost, so don't expect people to cater to the fact that you don't have the survival skills of others by treating you differently, especially since you already have the no pvp ability. With your second example, you afk'd in an unprotected area. Never afk on herocraft. There was no reason why you couldn't have logged and come back in 15 minutes. Instead, you left yourself unprotected, and you got upset when someone decided that they could kill you, and take your stuff.

Thirdly, come join our town Excelsum! We will offer you personal escort to our city, which floats hundreds of blocks in the air, safe from PVPers. There, you can train in the area, and on the mobs that spawn on the town's surface occasionally. Come on down to Excelsum, where the sun is bright, and the people are brighter! If you want to join our town, please post and application on our thread, under official townships!

 

[tishabisha]

I disagree. I couldn't find a single town without being killed. Hard to join what you can't even make it to.

Do what i did: go to the towns forums, find a thread and post an application. Get the coords and then ask if someone can help you out of the city. There you can get a safe area to store your things, hide, ect. Im not saying you wont get raided and killed even in the town, but thats what hardcore is about. Think of it as the highest diffculty setting on any other game. Good luck.

 

[Graink]

I feel like this is a hard core server. Clearly you know nothing of ethics, or maybe you're using a more modern version of it. Minecraft, and herocraft especially, is more of an early life sand box pvp game. It's based around basic human survival; medieval times. I'm fairly certain you didn't live back then, nor have your studied it apparently, therefore, you really have no basis to describe and define ethics.

I'm not about to give a history lesson, but the world was a much weirder place back then. Many powerful historical figures rose to power through ambition, savagery and their will to dominate and kill to get what they want. Herocraft is no different; it's a game that allows those of us who're a little more "beta" feel and act like we're "alphas". We can dominate like back in the good old days, where if someone brought up a rant like this, they'd be executed and fucked in public.

The point of my reply was to tell you you have a bad understanding of human ethics. It's a god damned video game, of course we won't go around killing people with iron swords in real life if they step near a house. We're not retarded, we're just bored gamers looking for a challenge. Fight back next time, or run away and learn to fight back another day.

 

[Psychokhaos]

It's me again, everyone! You probably remember me from a previous rant and I apologize in advance for doing it again. This time I'm a bit more educated on Herocraft's community so I hope I don't come across as just someone with nothing to do but complain.

Ethics. The term was clearly left out of Herocraft's dictionary. The same thing that happened to me last time on Warsaw is now happening to others in the "safe" world. I see that you took my advice and made a minimum level for PvP, but it's apparently legal to use flint and steel or lava to kill people below the "noob threshold." While I can justify (over hours of thought) the idea of lighting someone on fire that's below level because they're trying to get you killed, just randomly killing people is wrong.

I returned to the server recently, several weeks after my first disappointment, hoping that this time I'd do it right. I soon recalled that the mobs are much tougher in Herocraft than regular Minecraft and died several times. Those were my fault, but two other cases that happened today show me that Herocraft has continued to be a group of savages who only seek to bring misery upon new blood.

Instance #1: I was walking around just outside the Nexus and landed a foot on someone's property. I realized it wasn't my place and I hurried to find an exit. Before even seeing a way out, I see a player with an iron sword attempting to assassinate me (I turned around to see him sneaking). Keep in mind I had no armor or weapon with me and was obviously lost, yet this guy wanted my head! And it wasn't even the property owner!

Instance #2: Just after instance #1, I found my way off someone's property and saw a forest in the distance. With a smile on my face, I made my way over to it. After downing a tree, I see that it's getting dark. Not feeling experienced enough to take on mobs, I seek refuge in a nearby hill. On this hill, I spot coal. What luck! But upon breaking it, I discover it is the anti-xray plugin disguising smooth stone. After that, I dig my way into the hill and put up a barrier and decide to AFK for less than a minute to let the night pass a little bit. Bad idea. I come back and find myself dead. I couldn't have been a mob, for I was buried, so it must have been someone abusing the fire/lava loophole to kill me when I was completely defenseless, just waiting for the creepers to stop spawning.

To conclude, I do understand that Herocraft is a "hardcore" server, but just because you can do something does not justify doing it. That's not hardcore, that's game-ruining. What drives you to do things like that? On most servers, such behavior is classified as griefing! Is it some built up rage because the same thing happened to you when you first joined? Do you have nothing better to do with your time than stop new players from getting on their feet? Do you not want any new players and that's your way of eliminating them? Herocraft is NOT a hardcore server. Herocraft is a cesspool of indecency and unethical practices, and I know I'm not the only victim. I took all the advice people offered when I made the mistake last time of going to Warsaw and I suffered the exact same fate. Does anyone know what ethics are anymore? Certainly not Herocraft's community.

This is determined by the player base, and even more so the players independently. Also, BIG flaw that I see here. You stated, in the paragraph similarly colored above, "in the "safe" world". Herocraft is no designed to have a safe world. There is danger everywhere - Part of the Hardcore experience. And as for the randomly killing people part, what is so different than normally killing people? Although Herocraft is not a PvP Server, it is a big aspect of our server. Noobs can't be invincible - As milkmeister said, it would be abused.

Not all of the server enjoy killing the little newblings, as I like to call them at times. Heck, not everyone likes to PvP. Don't group a server into the actions of some. And they kill for loot and experience, not to ruin people's experience of the game and server.


"Obviously lost". People have no idea how to tell if someone is lost or not. Also, they can't see your inventory. They don't know what loot you may have had. Plus, if it isn't someone that they're friendly with, what repercussions are there to killing them? None. Plus, even if he wasn't the property owner, PvP'ers go around, and kill. Doesn't matter about trespassing - Once we were being raided, and the 2 groups of raiders attacked each other. A kill is a kill, people need EXP.

It's generally a good idea to either not afk, or afk in a safe spot, like a home in spawn, your town, or Private Donor Region. If you afk, and someone finds you that isn't friendly, have fun at the nearest Grave Yard.

Please tell me, how exactly is being killed by someone game ruining? Really, this is all taking place in a computer game. Doesn't matter. The Fire/Lava thing was implemented as the way to kill newblings. Also, I don't see how using a game mechanic as intended is griefing. It is playing the game. People are like this because thsi is how Heroes evolved the server. PvP became a bigger aspect after Sanctum, the last non-Heroes map. They kill for experience - Especially when recently, mobs weren't the easiest thing to find. It is not people's intent to drive new players away. If you think this, you have things to learn. And yeah, people kill. Why? Not because of "indecency or unethical practices". Rather, because this is a game. And they intend to play it how they wish, within the rule set. And yeah, people here have ethics. If you want to see it, look for it, and understand that people will play the game as according to their style.

This is my server, and I intend to do what I need to do to "protect" it. This includes, as my Guide position suggests, helping people understand, by telling them the facts about this server. If you don't like it here, and don't understand that this is how game play on this type of server is, go to a different server. Not because we don't like you, or want you here - Rather, so you will be happier.

 

[Dsawemd]

I didnt know we had a Warsaw world, comrade.

To answer your question, Ethics is a type of philosophy that defines and recommends concepts of right and wrong, "moral behavior". Ethics are decided based on your own personal philosophy.

Sounds like you subscribe to Virtue-driven ethics, which at times can be proven to be naive and impractical in the "real" world.

I would say that herocraft staff has ethical standards based on loose utilitarian or common good principles, whereas many of the players either choose to believe in a "moral rights"/ "Justice system", or choose to be strict utilitarians (only instead of greatest good for everyone, its greatest good for your town or guild). You are correct in stating that these utilitarians are unethical. They don't care, you aren't in their town/guild.

These are all choices you make, and do not imply that others will feel the same, or ascribe you those same rights.

 

[Dielan9999]

People like to use this server to release some primal rage. I'm afraid nothing can be done.

 

[Sidgil]

I'm hurt by this, just hurt. I will never recover from the scarring. D:


"Its a bug eat bug world out there, someone might get hurt" ~Hopper

 

[Forim]

I have devised a response for each of you:

@milkmeister: Fair enough, I can accept that the world is a hostile one.

@Graink: You're absolutely clueless. I know nothing of ethics? Please. Were ethics different in medieval times? Sure they were! You're right on the money with that statement. However, this is no longer the dark ages. This is the modern man pretending to be in the dark ages, and while I can agree that we all assume roles that need to fit the medieval description, just being cruel isn't the same. If I lived in medieval times, and I was minding my own business, chances are someone wouldn't light me on fire or run a sword through me unless they were hired to or damaged in the head. And if they wanted to express dominance, what good would it do them to rid the world of me and have one less person to dominate? Only barbarians would just murder someone, and they usually still had a sense of territory and protected their own.

@TheMormon: I agree with nearly everything in your post. However, getting killed numerous times in the beginning of the game is griefing in my opinion. Some people would advice me to make a weapon and fight back, but one cannot do that if they can't even get a foothold in the world. I've yet to find some real coal and I'm set on fire? Also, I don't see how I can be perceived as a raider if I'm completely unarmed and unarmored. But on your other points, I believe you are right.

 

[Sidgil]

Forim, this is what I tell ever new player when they first log in, maybe this will help you as well.

Immediately go to Warshard, if your under level 10, your fine, if not, book ass out of town. This adivce works better for thsoe who are not flagged pvp. Get atleast 300+ blocks away, and go about the routine. Go punch a tree, it builds character. I know this works, I have done it with several knew players while being flagged pvp. It helps you get your foothold.

My next recommendation is go into the town forums and get recruited if you can not afford an LWC. I recommend getting 40 or so stacks of wood (not planks) and making a pickaxe, then dig straight down....at your own risk. to about 10 or 11 and dig. you will level your crafting fairly quickly, but if your careful and get back to your stuff after each creeper attack, you should be able to use /skill warp to sell your gold in DHX and buy a Locked chest.

Stay out of Bastion if you want to stay alive. Until you have a town, you are not safe. EVER! we have looters, raiders, nasty fiends left and right who will find your base, kill you, and loot your stuff. Don't be a bitch about it, make a hit list. People to kill and loot later in the game. Mine has @blugauga_5. Thats right blu! I'm gonna get you one of these days!

You need to forge alliances though. I have spend so much time trying to help out players, that I have managed to forge new alliances left and right, yeah they might sneak up on me for a good last, but atleast I know I can put some trust in them if need be. There is more to this game then just minecraft, there is a social portion as well.

 

[Graink]

@Forim
I don't believe I'm absolutely clueless. This is a video game. A program built around human pleasure. It's here to satisfy each and every persons' needs. If you really want to bitch about ethics, find another game, like Call of Duty. Your lack of promotion to remove this army game is concerning considering your callous intentions about minecraft pvp. People kill other people in video games :/

Writing an essay for a general group of people isn't going to help you at all. You're circling out a certain, fairly small, and usually apathetic group of people. You should expect the worst; trolling, spawn camping, and maybe burning all your items.

My best words of advice would be to take a step back and calm down a little bit. This isn't real life, normal morals don't apply here. If you're about to start complaining about other gamers being too aggressive, you've seriously got some tough issues to sort out.

 

[Psychokhaos]

@TheMormon: I agree with nearly everything in your post. However, getting killed numerous times in the beginning of the game is griefing in my opinion. Some people would advice me to make a weapon and fight back, but one cannot do that if they can't even get a foothold in the world. I've yet to find some real coal and I'm set on fire? Also, I don't see how I can be perceived as a raider if I'm completely unarmed and unarmored. But on your other points, I believe you are right.

How is one to know what resources you have gathered? And not everyone uses armor - I, for example, hardly use it. When you're a Caster and your option is leather, at least I don't find a lot of it. And as for the weapon, people can use Improved Chat and Spoutcraft to have spells bound to keys. Plus, it's easy to switch on and off of any item in your hotbar. And as for the first point you made, about Griefing, here's an excerpt from the "HEROCRAFT ONLINE SERVICE RULES" post by Seratt, a Herocraft Founder.

4 Griefing may be defined as:​

4.1 Breaking into areas otherwise impossible to enter.​

4.2 Destroying blocks in another player's structure.​

4.2.1 Destroying blocks in pursuit of another player is acceptable if blocks are replaced.​

4.3 Placing blocks in or around a structure which you do not own.​

4.4 Leaving abusive messages in any form.​

4.5 Teleporting group members to your person and engaging in hostile actions against said group members.​

It is possible for you to get a foothold in the world. Go somewhere, very isolated. Get mining for resources quickly. Join a town. Kill any mobs you see, for EXP. We were all newbs at one point. We found ways - Make alliances as Sidgil stated. If you're not the only victim, as you put it, why not come together as a small group?

I'm fairly good at debates, and enjoy a good one. I'll probably be able to counter most of your arguments - While I prefer to protect newbs, this has nothing to do with ethics or griefing, but more of people playing and enjoying the game their perfectly legal way.

 

[Forim]

After accepting this, I encountered a third situation that leads me to believe it would be better to not have the below level 10 rule. I got burned just as I was getting on my feet and couldn't fight back with the gear I'd made explicitly for defending against such blighters. I think it's very wrong that any old noob can take up a flint and steel and kill you with zero skill just because you know how to play REAL Minecraft and decided it best to make weapons and armor rather than a griefer's tool.

 

[Graink]

We all know it takes great skill to escape a flint and steel attack. I wish you the best of luck when you reach a pvp-able level; you have 0 chances as is.

 

[Dsawemd]

MY GOODNESS. What a touchy member of our loving community. Hey Forim. Im making you an offer to watch over you until you get to level ten in something, just so I can kill you myself.

EDIT: This is sincere, and I will /recall in between helping and killing you.