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Suggestion A Level Affair

Are you in favour of dungeons/exp/leveling in their current state?


  • Total voters
    41

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
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#61
Did someone say Data?

On a side note, while completely unrelated. Its funny how a few but more iconic players, said gathering this data was A waste of Time :rolleyes:
Yes I just took the time to duplicate your data. This is what I got

Tier 1:
MINION (500) EXP YIELD (17) Minions 29.41 HP per 1 EXP
ELITE (1000) EXP YIELD (29) Elites 34.48 HP per 1 EXP
BOSS (2000) EXP YIELD (154) BOSS 12.94 HP per 1 EXP

Tier 2:
N/A

Tier 3:
MINION (1320) EXP YIELD (71) Minions 4.5 HP per 1 EXP
ELITE (2700) EXP YIELD (100) Elites 27 HP per 1 EXP
BOSS (6600) EXP YIELD (250) BOSS 26.4 HP per 1 EXP

Tier 4:
MINION (1650) EXP YIELD (90) 18.33 HP per 1 XP
ELITE (3300) EXP YIELD (200) 16.5 HP per 1 XP
BOSS (10000) EXP YIELD (720) 13.88 HP per 1 XP

Tier 5:
MINION (2145) EXP YIELD (160) 13.40 HP per 1 XP
ELITE (4290) EXP YIELD (400) 10.73 HP per 1 XP
BOSS (15015) EXP YIELD (1280) 11.73 HP per 1 XP

Tier 6:
MINION (2750) EXP YIELD (350) 7.85 HP per 1 XP
ELITE (5500) EXP YIELD (800) 6.87 HP per 1 XP
BOSS (22000) EXP YIELD (3000) 7.33 HP per 1 XP

The problem with my data is two fold. One it is incomplete as I was missing Tier 2 data. Two the HP values are generic averages since each mob has variations of health by % and classification, making some mobs worth a LOT more than others especially at higher ends where those percentages translate into the hundreds if not thousands of hitpoints.

I realized this, but still compiled an average of two random mobs within the same tier/class and then averaged their baselines. I have a google doc to use as the baseline for all mob HP values, but since I do not know which mobs were placed and how many of each spawner, among other things. This sort of just became an estimate. However, I do thank you for the complete data report. That is quite fascinating. I think an HP squish may be coming into play when I get around to finishing this Patch. Expect to see far less variations.

So far, I am pushing the team to accept these values:
Tier 1: 10HP=1EXP Roughly 20%-249% increase over current values. (T1 Bosses were good EXP per HP)
Tier 2: 9HP=1EXP Roughly 225% increase over current values. (Just guessing)
Tier 3: 8HP=1EXP Roughly 60-237% increase over current values. (T3 Minions were good EXP per HP)
Tier 4: 7HP=1EXP Roughly 98-162% increase over current values.
Tier 5: 6HP=1EXP Roughly 78-123% increase over current values.
Tier 6: 5HP=1EXP Roughly 37-57% increase over current values.

EDIT: This means T6 Mobs will be roughly 50% better after I can finish this patch. It also means that T6 will be roughly 20% better EXP (relatively) than T4 Mobs. So it will still be more efficient to kill at the highest level, even if it takes longer, and has more risk since PVP. There are also better rewards and drops to consider for T5 and T6. And I may do more balancing on actual armor drop tables among other things I noticed I need to tinker with.

As you know, lower is better. Another thing, for the baseline HP Squishing, I was thinking of a system something like this:
Tier 1: 500HP
Tier 2: 750HP
Tier 3: 1000HP
Tier 4: 1500HP
Tier 5: 2000HP
Tier 6: 2500HP

Also, take into account that most bosses have a multiplier to their HP pools.
T1-T3 are 4-5 Times Base HP values.
Tier 4 is 6 Times Base HP
Tier 5 is 7 Times Base HP
Tier 6 is 8 Times Base HP. This is why a Minion may have 2,750 HP and a boss has 22,000HP. One might be a warrior, another a mage type. Just different rarities which accumulates all these differences you guys see.

My plan is to lower these differences in HP, change the baseline by a tad. -250HP for T6 mobs on the baseline and Lower the difference in HP amounts from say 2250-2750, down to something like 2400-2600 HP. T6 Bosses will probably be changed to just be 20,000, however.

My main goal is to speed up the leveling process for lower levels, and balance the mobs a bit better. We may also be fixing some other bugs, and droprates in the process. Depends on how much time I have this week or so.

EDIT 2:
Minion > Elite > Boss or Common > Uncommon > Rare

EDIT 3:
What I'll probably do is lower the differences in HP between tiers of the same class, but set their entire group EXP to the same values. So you will still see some RNG for HP per EXP between tiers within the same class, however it will be much tighter nit. So there will be areas to explore after this change that might have lower HP mobs that are worth slightly more EXP per kill, but overall I want the entire tier to be the main reason to move up and progress through dungeons, thus my main reasoning for the squish and the proposed changes above.
 
Last edited:

xexorian

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#62
Your suggestions sound very well thought-out and informed and I'd like to see some of these changes. I think the live server is a good way to test experimental changes at a rapid pace to find that one sweet spot that is widely accepted.

You are a voice of hope in these dark times, Xexo. Show us the light!
I would just like to say thank you for this comment, not enough people realize all the work I put into these mobs, as Battle's data above suggests, there was a lot of effort put into the initial draw up of mobs. However, one thing to note is that I didn't change the EXP values on the last couple iterations of dungeons. The initial draw up was balanced based around HP = EXP and was much more finely tuned. This is why some people comment that dungeons was better on X map or Y map.
 

battle00333

Glowing Redstone
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
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0
#63
The most broken thing of all is Tier 2.
30 XP for 3000 HP = ( 1% of HP gained as XP )

I could also have it show how much of the HP you gain as XP.
but it wouldnt change the graphs

It also took alot of effort
ESPECIALLY IN TIER 3
due to the bugged display names every single enemy was displayed as "Ninja" with no differentiation. so I had to kill every single mob and boss, just to get their names revealed.

as Battle's data above suggests, there was a lot of effort put into the initial draw up of mobs. .
Well, except Tier 2. Tier 2 is a pure shitshow in terms of HXP
 
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xexorian

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#65
I noticed that we're missing a few tiers of items in the current drop tables. I would like to propose the following changes. But applied to all tiers and all base armor types:

T6 Chain Chest (Current)
Projectile 2
Environmental 2
Explosion 2
Fire 2
Durability 7
Armor 2
Toughness 1
Health 25
KBR 10%
-------------------------------------------
(Proposed scaling)
T6 Chain Chest
Prot 2
Durability 7
Armor 8
Toughness 2
Health 33
KBR 15%

T5 Chain Chest
Prot 1
Durability 6
Armor 8
Toughness 2
Health 25
KBR 11%

T4 Chain Chest
Prot 1
Durability 5
Armor 7
Toughness 1
Health 20
KBR 9%

T3 Chain Chest
Durability 4
Armor 6
Toughness 1
Health 15
KBR 8%

T2 Chain Chest
Durability 3
Armor 5
Toughness 1
Health 10
KBR 5%

T1 Chain Chest
Durability 2
Armor 4
Toughness 1
Health 8
KBR 3%

With ofcourse similar scaling and numbers to all other set pieces within these tiers, and each armor type.

EDIT: Most of this may end up changing soon, who knows. For now my focus will be on HP/XP and mob reworks.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Likes
140
#66
It's not just him. The larger towns camp the only viable place to level up, T6 dungeons always have a larger town in them, and that makes any and all leveling almost impossible.

It's almost not possible to play herocraft solo, where it used to be before last map.
Just like the de Beers camping diamonds irl, it's unfair but thats life bro!!!
 

N1nten

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
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10
#68
to be honest, we need to consider this map a step in the right direction.
but there is a lot that needs to be fixed.

Listen to the players, we want overworld dungeons, alternatives to grinding in a dungeon, make pvp viable, make overworld pvp fun.
Rewards are one thing, a satisfying experience is another.
idk im drunk.
 

xexorian

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#69
I've got partial work completed on the new and improved mobs. Feel free to test them over on the /TEST server @ play.hc.to
There are a variety of new skills, sounds, animations, mob, and bug fixes that went into this. I set up a bunch of elite/regular/boss spawners just outside the test central building marked by redstone blocks.
More to come. Stay tuned! @Admins feel free to check it out!

I've got new skills in the works, new debuffs from mobs, and overall a better feel of what they're capable of. Hopefully you guys won't run over these mobs like a trainwreck once the EXP/HP buffs come through. I had no idea until Mayitre told me that almost none of the mob skills were not working, so I spent a lot of time going back and fixing this area up in particular. I expect to be able to write up entirely flavored skills per tier, reusing some of the basic ones as I go along the way, we should expect to see more out of bosses/elites now rather than just straight slamming them into a wall and killing them quick.

I hope you like it, this content is shaping up to be some of the better stuff I've pulled off, and it may take me another few days to get the next two-three tiers done. There's a lot going into this again.

Looking for feedback early as I start this massive overhaul of the dungeons system. Keep me posted here! Eyes on!
 

xexorian

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#70
Complete list of mob skills so far:
Doppleganger
Jump
GreaterJump
Leap
TeleportSelf
Dodge (need to add a windy sound to this for flavor*)
TeleportTarget
TeleportNearby
MinorThrow
Throw
------------
Strike
*new* MinorExplode (new creeper skill needs more work / needs sound effects)
Bite (endermite favorite, steals 3% life)
*new* Crush (slows and iron golems use this + sound effects)
*new* SearingBite (itchy Bite)
*new* WitherBite (flavored Bite)
*new* Slash (needs sound effect/aoe ranges set)
*new* ChaosSlash (short-range AOE withering slash + sound effects)
PunctureArrow (can crit and turn into a DoT)
WitherArrow (flavor skill)
*new* FireArrow
*new sounds* Fireball
*new sounds* Witherfire (everyone knows this one!)
Healself (heals self)
*new* Healother (heals zombie/skeletons)
*new sounds* Demoncurse (disarms melee attacks temporarily)
*new* Corruption (powerful DoT)
----------

I still need to come up with some unique stuff for wolf type creatures, I'm thinking a leap attack of some kind if I can get it working. I may also see about vexes and new spell mechanics for elites/bosses as I work my way up. There's quite a bit more now than there used to be.
 

N1nten

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Likes
10
#71
Complete list of mob skills so far:
Doppleganger
Jump
GreaterJump
Leap
TeleportSelf
Dodge (need to add a windy sound to this for flavor*)
TeleportTarget
TeleportNearby
MinorThrow
Throw
------------
Strike
*new* MinorExplode (new creeper skill needs more work / needs sound effects)
Bite (endermite favorite, steals 3% life)
*new* Crush (slows and iron golems use this + sound effects)
*new* SearingBite (itchy Bite)
*new* WitherBite (flavored Bite)
*new* Slash (needs sound effect/aoe ranges set)
*new* ChaosSlash (short-range AOE withering slash + sound effects)
PunctureArrow (can crit and turn into a DoT)
WitherArrow (flavor skill)
*new* FireArrow
*new sounds* Fireball
*new sounds* Witherfire (everyone knows this one!)
Healself (heals self)
*new* Healother (heals zombie/skeletons)
*new sounds* Demoncurse (disarms melee attacks temporarily)
*new* Corruption (powerful DoT)
----------

I still need to come up with some unique stuff for wolf type creatures, I'm thinking a leap attack of some kind if I can get it working. I may also see about vexes and new spell mechanics for elites/bosses as I work my way up. There's quite a bit more now than there used to be.
how about a howl type move for the wolf that causes you to move slower and take slightly more damage?
 

draconis99

Holy
Coder
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Feb 28, 2012
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#72
Was about to write a 12 page report on why dungeons aren't the root problem. Decided I would rather just state it. Even if we fix the dungeon's numbers to make them better/easier/whatever you want to call it, they are not going to fix the leveling problem. Dungeons being the only way to "safely" level your combat class in a separate location set apart for the sole purpose of grinding and nothing else limits the player's choices. Without decisions, dungeons will always be either too simple or too frustrating, and will never cause the player to be in a state of Play. If a higher up is interested in how to remedy this, hit me up.
 
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