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Suggestion A Level Affair

Are you in favour of dungeons/exp/leveling in their current state?


  • Total voters
    41
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
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#21
Having overworld leveling makes towns lively. Currently, I just use my town to store items and could hardly care what it looks like. There is absolutely no reason to be in your town if you're not leveling. With overworld leveling, People are more likely to stay in their towns, which will bring back the communal feelings of towns and will probably make people want their towns to look nice.
 

xexorian

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#22
I agree the new system is too hard. It needs major re-balancing. I'd also like to get more hero attributes working and having actual class restricted items, and having most gear/weapons/items that don't drop on death, so classes can get geared up, and have to sink some sort of monetary value into repairing their shit. This would make for a great money sink. I wouldn't mind it at all if the only thing they got was pvp tokens, as long as it wasn't the ONLY gateway to getting better gear. With the ONLY other option being extreme amounts of labor. I think straight $$$ should let you gear up & maintain it. (I mean in-game currency btw.) Relying on other professions to get your upgrades is also kinda eh. Put a different way in for upgrading weapons and armors. Separate the two. Make it some sort of "Plussing" system. With chances to fail. Make failing require you to repair the item with your character's money. So if you break your item, it can downgrade, or literally break, or succeed. Have it give you some reward for not working initially, like say "Plus stacks" and as you attempt more tries at it, you get more stacks which gives you higher chances of succeeding. Make a money sink worthwhile. Make mobs give lots of money. Make the sink huge. Give purpose to grinding. Make EXP super easy until the last 5 levels. Make those levels take 30mins, 1hr, 2hrs, 4hrs, 8hrs. WITH a 250% boost. Make 5 more levels past 'mastery' that are even harder, and almost entirely pointless to get except for new attributes like hit/dodge/crit/mastery/str/dex/intel/wisdom/vita etc. Rewrite skills so they have alternate versions players can choose from for class depth. Maybe make it so heroes can change their particle effects/sounds by paying currency. Call it Alignments. Make it a thing. Give people more to do. Make coins worth somethin.

TLDR

MOAR
 

xexorian

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#23
Having overworld leveling makes towns lively. Currently, I just use my town to store items and could hardly care what it looks like. There is absolutely no reason to be in your town if you're not leveling. With overworld leveling, People are more likely to stay in their towns, which will bring back the communal feelings of towns and will probably make people want their towns to look nice.
remember towns being invaded by teleporting pigzombie bosses?! :D
 

xexorian

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#24
PVE scaling for all skills is 1.2x at level 1 then gains 3.5% of the base every level.
I was in favour of pushing it higher than that however I was over ruled.
Yeah, I was pushing for major balance changes from 1-60 but it was deemed 'unfeasible' by the balance team and coders at the time.

I wanted to see a 10,000% character growth from 1 to 60, with another 100% by 70. (or max t2, however it was to be handled.)

The reason being, if numbers are high enough, but just low enough, scaling becomes easy to balance. Balancing the differences of 1 and 8 is 800%. Balancing the difference of 798 and 806 is still 8, but the % change is much smaller, easier to do, and less game breaking. I was also over ruled on my balance ideas. So much for being smart in math class, let's just throw it out the window shall we!
 

Danda

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#25
Make it some sort of "Plussing" system. With chances to fail. Make failing require you to repair the item with your character's money. So if you break your item, it can downgrade, or literally break, or succeed.
That's basically how the current upgrade system works.
Each increase to the class weapons increases the chance of failure (which currently just consumes the upgrade materials)

The current problem with upgrading is that the back end infrastructure to make it work with attributes etc isn't finished. So we're currently very limited in what we can do with gear. Though I will say what we're doing now is the bare minimum of that.
 

xexorian

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#26
That's basically how the current upgrade system works.
Each increase to the class weapons increases the chance of failure (which currently just consumes the upgrade materials)

The current problem with upgrading is that the back end infrastructure to make it work with attributes etc isn't finished. So we're currently very limited in what we can do with gear. Though I will say what we're doing now is the bare minimum of that.
Right but symbols of acquisition and vengeance are a pretty garbage linear way of upgrading. Make the mobs drop the shit pretty commonly if it's going to take literally hundreds of them. Make class sets a thing, restrict items not by minecraft item type but by flavor text within heroes. It needs recoding. Period. We need better/more attributes for a full features RPG experience. We need proper item handling. We need better money sinks. We need the game to be soloable, not require pvping, or just boss camping, those are shitty mechanics. Full-loot needs to die for this shit to succeed properly. Crafting depth should be beyond just the custom items to upgrade once without needing 8 different people to make it work. There needs to be reasons to craft things. We should take out professions and simply have everyone have the same abilities, and put in a knowledge/quest system to replace your ability to use skills that grant the same things professions do. Put caps on your progression for learning these things by having to grind and farm materials to repeat and level up these "innate" (read: passive) skills that allow you to get better and better things.
 

Danda

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#27
Yeah, I was pushing for major balance changes from 1-60 but it was deemed 'unfeasible' by the balance team and coders at the time.

I wanted to see a 10,000% character growth from 1 to 60, with another 100% by 70. (or max t2, however it was to be handled.)

The reason being, if numbers are high enough, but just low enough, scaling becomes easy to balance. Balancing the differences of 1 and 8 is 800%. Balancing the difference of 798 and 806 is still 8, but the % change is much smaller, easier to do, and less game breaking. I was also over ruled on my balance ideas. So much for being smart in math class, let's just throw it out the window shall we!
No the main problem with skill scaling is that we're really not utilising it to it's fullest extent. Damage scaling of skills is not a global thing, we can change the scaling of individual skills to whatever we like however we're not using that, not to mention the 3.5% increase in damage of skills per level is the exact same increase that melee damage increases by which as we're all aware is far more efficient and effective than skill damage.
 

xexorian

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#28
No the main problem with skill scaling is that we're really not utilising it to it's fullest extent. Damage scaling of skills is not a global thing, we can change the scaling of individual skills to whatever we like however we're not using that, not to mention the 3.5% increase in damage of skills per level is the exact same increase that melee damage increases by which as we're all aware is far more efficient and effective than skill damage.
I know. Which is why I don't understand the balance team hasn't fixed this issue yet. This isn't even a big issue. It's literally a per-skill config. It's a simple PVE only multiplier. Someone should go average your DPS at max level on a barbarian or w/e, then average your DPS with skills as a caster. Take into account 2-3 full rotations, of going out of mana too, and create some sort of balance. Equal the sides of the equation. If it seems OP that a fireball can three shot a mob, realize that it's on an say, 8 second cooldown, and a barb can kill 0.75 mobs in the same time. It takes longer, yes, but maybe, if its balanced right, the idea is that the caster will oom, and the barb can keep going, so as he regenerates mana, he should put out the same or similar DPS to a barb who has only stamina to consider. These things need to be balanced together dynamically, not linearly based on (hits+dmg)/time or what have you.
 

Danda

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#29
I know. Which is why I don't understand the balance team hasn't fixed this issue yet. This isn't even a big issue. It's literally a per-skill config. It's a simple PVE only multiplier. Someone should go average your DPS at max level on a barbarian or w/e, then average your DPS with skills as a caster. Take into account 2-3 full rotations, of going out of mana too, and create some sort of balance. Equal the sides of the equation. If it seems OP that a fireball can three shot a mob, realize that it's on an say, 8 second cooldown, and a barb can kill 0.75 mobs in the same time. It takes longer, yes, but maybe, if its balanced right, the idea is that the caster will oom, and the barb can keep going, so as he regenerates mana, he should put out the same or similar DPS to a barb who has only stamina to consider. These things need to be balanced together dynamically, not linearly based on (hits+dmg)/time or what have you.
Not to mention PvE scaling of Melee isn't global either, it's per class.
 
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#30
I personally prefer Valorium's dungeons. I'm not sure why, but they felt rewarding, plus getting a couple random rare drops was always vaguely satisfying. The event drops made it even better since they would add to the loot table.

To be fair,. when I suggested overworld leveling, that was because it was pretty much the common consensus reached in discord ;p

As much fun as I had overworld leveling on Aegis, I fully admit that it was only fun because I was new to the server and was baffled that such a plugin could exist that allowed the usage of skills and such.



Once I actually get to work on this mob plugin, I'm pretty sure I could find a way to optimize this to stop massive quantities of lag.



Which would of course cause lag. Lots of lag. As in "90% of our server lag comes from MythicMobs" lag.

I'm not even exaggerating there.



This is content that is literally causing the death of the server. Population was halved just one week after release. This is not a matter of "variety of leveling". We currently do not have variety of leveling. The leveling we do have is tedious, dull, and repetitive, that much everyone agrees on.



I actually have had fun grinding on RIFT, which is the only MMO I've ever stuck to. There was just a shit ton to do at all times, and the game was fun until Trion kinda broke it even worse than it was already broken. Can't tell you exactly why but it had a lot to do with loot and the class system.



I'm ambivalent about this, because providing PvE-only regions has a habit of killing pvp - look at Aegis.

Also, rifts are not for leveling, and dungeons shouldn't be, either. Rifts are simply to spark world PvP by providing an item/currency incentive to head to a specific location and battle it out with the rift itself and other players. I recall suggesting keeping dungeons as a gear/item incentive, so that

Main leveling source: provides ample exp but not much else
Rifts: provide currency, materials, locations for world pvp
Dungeons: provide loot & gear as well as certain boss items such as trophies

If Valorium-style dungeons make their return (can we have Valorium's map back, too?), I'd prefer to rename our current dungeons into something else, since Valorium dungeons were closer to the definition of a dungeon - cramped, dank, and full of dead people.



I've seen both 20 hours and 2 weeks, but regardless, question everything. Just because someone is the boss doesn't mean you can't challenge them, albeit respectfully. Part of the reason Conquest was so hyped two years ago was we promised a server where we would accept input from everyone and consider it carefully, which is something almost no servers do. I feel like now more than ever people just want to be heard and acknowledged if nothing else.

I can't really comment on that exp rate,since it's entirely subjective, but I can say that leveling any class with good melee damage is much, much faster, easier and less bothersome than leveling a caster/support, which sucks, because many people want to play casters/supports. This assumes solo leveling of course; healing a group of warriors and rogues is fine for leveling.



All of this I can totally understand and agree with. The fact is, Heroes servers are only still around because they fill a niche; servers that promise interesting content fail to deliver or even get started (or their class systems are too shit to make up for it), and the two "main" servers - HC and Atherys - have both pretty much gone belly-up at this point, kept alive by dedicated veterans, staff, and some new players who can still see potential in everything.

I'm still here because I still have some hope.


Boring Leveling is a contributing factor, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it's the only reason it's dying. People level through the boring mmo grind for the end game content in tons of games (i would be a rich man if I had a penny for every wolf I killed in a fucking game to reach max level), we currently don't have that end game content however. To be honest, no leveling is fun, I used to make 750+ a week literally leveling accounts (specifically in rift) for people on games or in arenas because nobody gives a shit about leveling, that's why tons of games now days have auto walk and quest features like black dessert. I stopped leveling on this server 2 or 3 times before ever reaching max when i first played this server years ago and the mobs were in the open world.
Herocraft is trying to put mmorpg characters and professions in a sandbox survival map such as rust which is an awesome idea but most sandbox survival games don't have levels and most mmorpgs have end game content such as battlegrounds, arenas and raids. Speaking as the guild leader of the top pvp guild in the actual mmo RIFT during it's prime as well as being in 2 different top 5 raiding guilds there, I can agree that the rifts are an awesome idea and can bring life to the open world but also a lot of frustration for the pve players which isn't necessarily a bad thing but should be taken into consideration.


My proposal would be on the current path to buff xp and condense low level dungeons and keep them viable to level to at least 25 or so. Turn pvp on and put level restrictions on them so you have to be level 25 or below to enter them. This will create a more equal playing field for new and low level players to learn the game while still having risks and pvp on without being ganked by mayitre or ritz when they are bored as well as only providing the environment for a certain time. If players would rather take their chances in the open world or at rifts then go for it, higher risk, higher reward but this at least gives them an option and level playing field to fight players closer to their level.

I would also suggest thinking about pvp specific rifts, similar to castles which could offer a more dynamic way to obtain medals of vengeance than going to the same boring castle every time and gets players out in the world. If you played rift then you know what I'm talking about.


I'm not really sure if there is honestly a dynamic enjoyable way to level on herocraft in the current state. If you are taking inspiration from rift, then you know that rifts were heavily contested due to the faction system which we don't have the player base to replicate. If you look at rift in the decline (which is what it would most likely be more like due to our low pop), rifts were as dead as our dungeons and not really even a part of the game anymore (not sure about now but near the ember isle days). If you look at lame mega servers, part of the reason they are so popular is that people can just hop on them and play a few games with their friends like league or halo back in the day. We need something to hook players so that when they start, they do something fun and keep playing, not grind mobs. Hell the only reason I kept playing was because a random dude that I think likes boys named STDS4youand4Me helped me out and leveled me to 25 the first night and I could see the end game goal in sight at that point.

What I'm getting at is that rifts are an awesome end game idea and I'm glad something is being pushed to improve the end game content, but if your looking at getting rid of dungeons and adding mobs to the world as a solution to fun leveling I just don't think it will do the trick.
 
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#31
I'm not planning on replying to that as a quote, since text walls, but

1) Not adding rifts as a core gameplay mechanic. Don't compare them to RIFT's rifts. The only thing about them that's similar is the fact that RIFT inspired them. At base config, only one spawns in the world at any given time, and they should have drop incentives. Their sole purpose is to periodically provide a reason for players to travel to a spot, where they'll most likely PvP. I'm going off Valorium's 100+ player base that stuck around for at least a couple months after release, where we had enough people to make a system like this feasible. Release almost always brings back a number of people, though this number has been shrinking steadily.

2) There is a way to level that people actually find fun. Valorium's dungeons were perfect if you don't want overworld leveling. I'm ADD to the point where I cannot play MMOs that center on resource grinding without fun combat (Trove did okay by this, for example, while RIFT's resource grinding was both bearable and not a central focus of the game). A lot of people I've talked to - mostly friends from that time - agree that those dungeons were actually fun for some reason or other. Server ran for a long time on overworld leveling, too.

3) You're right that HC is trying to shove an MMO into a sandbox survival, and that it isn't being done right. Keep the class/skill system but return to the roots and focus on what kept players active before. Make towns lively again. Give people a reason to build up fortifications (possible random mob raids?).

4) Agree on low-level areas for new players to learn the game. I don't think dungeons should be a reliable exp source past level 20 or so, though. Exp needs to be curved in order to address that.

It's pretty early and my brain hasn't quite booted up yet, so this proooobably won't make a ton of sense.
 

Jrr_

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#32
I quit because of the leveling change this map

I didn't come here to spend weeks on end leveling if I wanted to play more than one class, there is zero fun in that.
 
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#34
I quit a few days ago. I find any mob grind to be boring and tedious so I mine and build. It's taken a month just to get to level 20 combat class and at the rate I'm going the map will wipe before I ever would've mastered one.

I doubt any implemented changes will make me come back, but maybe if people make it known that they quit because of this it will be taken as a serious issue.
 
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#35
I quit a few days ago. I find any mob grind to be boring and tedious so I mine and build. It's taken a month just to get to level 20 combat class and at the rate I'm going the map will wipe before I ever would've mastered one.

I doubt any implemented changes will make me come back, but maybe if people make it known that they quit because of this it will be taken as a serious issue.
Agreed. Every time I hop on, it just renews my determination to work on the experiment that is Ardor, which is currently on the test box. My plan was to use that server as a way to create a concept for what we as a community would like to see in a server, but at the moment I'm still working on writing the plugins.
 
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#36
I quit a few days ago. I find any mob grind to be boring and tedious so I mine and build. It's taken a month just to get to level 20 combat class and at the rate I'm going the map will wipe before I ever would've mastered one.

I doubt any implemented changes will make me come back, but maybe if people make it known that they quit because of this it will be taken as a serious issue.
Ok we all agree the grind is terrible but if it takes you a month to get to level 20 that is 100% your fault
 

N1nten

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#37
Ok we all agree the grind is terrible but if it takes you a month to get to level 20 that is 100% your fault
It's not just him. The larger towns camp the only viable place to level up, T6 dungeons always have a larger town in them, and that makes any and all leveling almost impossible.

It's almost not possible to play herocraft solo, where it used to be before last map.
 
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#38
I liked valorium dungeons, even if poeple camped them there were plenty more and it took a long time to travel from one to another so you can probably just level at another one if poeple camp one
 
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#39
It's not just him. The larger towns camp the only viable place to level up, T6 dungeons always have a larger town in them, and that makes any and all leveling almost impossible.

It's almost not possible to play herocraft solo, where it used to be before last map.
I solo leveled dragoon and ninja in t6 dungeons, only came across a single person once or twice. No town can hard camp both dungeons, they are too big.
 
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