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Suggestion World pvp

TightSqueeze

Stone
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
I'll probably get a lot of hate for this but I have two suggestions for increasing world pvp, or at least make it more available. The first is to make ore unmovable. I like the regenerating ore, it's awesome. But mining, at least to me, was the only way I find people just out in the world outside of afkers in towns. If it's legal to move ore into a town or protected area then people have no reason to leave the safety of the town, especially if they have farms too. They got their money, their mats, everything they need. Plus, you can't place ore that you mine with a silk touch pick. This "well they put in a ton of effort to do it" excuse is bullcrap, it should either all be ok or all barred. The second suggestion I have is to make farms unplantable in claimed areas, but make it a bannable offense to grief(not raid) them within like a hundred blocks of the town. It would encourage people to maybe join a bigger town for protection while they farm, and get people interacting with each other. Towns shouldn't be like this absolute safe haven. It should be a place to store things and grow into a community to protect each other, but if you want money or mats you should risk the gank.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
1: Make no mistake, war is coming. With all its glory... and all its horror.
2: The No placing Ores was due to Ores not originally regenerating. I think Ores should be placeable now since they regen. @Kainzo
3: I don't understand what you mean by unplantable in claimed areas. Like, people can't place Carrots or Potatoes inside town? That doesn't make sense.
 

TightSqueeze

Stone
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
The last map I played it was the norm to make a huge wheat farm below ground to gather money drops and exp. If crops no longer function this way, then disregard that last suggestion. If they still do, then that's basically risk free exp and money farming that could other wise be restricted to unprotected areas so people would have to risk pvp if they want to sit and babysit a farm.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
1: Make no mistake, war is coming. With all its glory... and all its horror.
2: The No placing Ores was due to Ores not originally regenerating. I think Ores should be placeable now since they regen. @Kainzo
3: I don't understand what you mean by unplantable in claimed areas. Like, people can't place Carrots or Potatoes inside town? That doesn't make sense.
Ores have never been placable. Nor will they be. This is to prevent raking in EXP from placing/breaking stuff.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Ores have never been placable. Nor will they be. This is to prevent raking in EXP from placing/breaking stuff.
But.... we can piston them and break them when they regen? What's the difference?

Ores give 0 XP upon placement, and give what they give now.
In reality nothing would change, since people already have chunks of ores piston'd into place for farming. They're literally talking about harvesting in the Drastikos thread. All restricting OrePlacement does is limit Silk Touch to Grass, Glass, and maybe a few other things.
 
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Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
But.... we can piston them and break them when they regen? What's the difference?

Ores give 0 XP upon placement, and give what they give now.
In reality nothing would change, since people already have chunks of ores piston'd into place for farming. They're literally talking about harvesting in the Drastikos thread. All restricting OrePlacement does is limit Silk Touch to Grass, Glass, and maybe a few other things.
Its a basic deterrent from exploiting massive exp gains, similar to Diamond/Gold gains, including the items you get for breaking.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
But.... we can piston them and break them when they regen? What's the difference?

Ores give 0 XP upon placement, and give what they give now.
In reality nothing would change, since people already have chunks of ores piston'd into place for farming. They're literally talking about harvesting in the Drastikos thread. All restricting OrePlacement does is limit Silk Touch to Grass, Glass, and maybe a few other things.

Its a basic deterrent from exploiting massive exp gains, similar to Diamond/Gold gains, including the items you get for breaking.


Let me share some screenshots to get everyone on the same page. I'd also like to ask @TightSqueeze if he knows of any towns besides Drastikos that have pistoned ores into their region? I was under the impression (given the mod/admin interest in seeing the machine in action and watching our first farm) that we were the first. I can confirm that the ammount of ores we have now was several dozens of hours spaced out across several weeks of hard work. @Symbolite and @gtastuntdude can break down how much work this is as they designed the piston machine that brought the ores into region once they were lined up into the machine.

@Kainzo I think we are all on the same page that ores that drop on break like iron and gold as well as ores that are silk touch'd are not meant to be placed back down. This would be a dangerous exploit of the amount of exp they drop and I was there on Zeal to see this change go live myself. Of course that shouldn't be allowed.

What @LordZelkova is talking about is something our town did with pistons. Since ores on this map leave behind spider webs after breaking and regenerate 5 IRL days later, we can break them again for the exp. To take advantage of this we used pistons to line them up into a large piston machine and move them into our regions so we can break them once a week for big exp gains. Like I said at the start of this post, the actual moving of these ores was a monumental ammount of time and I don't think anybody has done it but us, at least not on this scale. The only other township that rivals Drastikos in manpower to even try this is probably @Skaahr's town.

This is what it looks like in our farms right now:

UETU0EK.png


The first time we broke the ores @ironee212 changed classes to smith (for exp gain purposes she was a tier2 combat class for this) and in a party of about 7 people she went from 1 - 55 smith. This was also with all 5 castles captured and I bought a serverwide 200% experience boost. The people in our party who were tier1 combat classes did not get very much experience (@Sidgil and @Hydroking77 for reference) and were a bit disappointed.

I don't feel like this should be considered exploitation in any way because the server decides when these ores respawn from cobwebs and that duration of time can be increased if it becomes a problem. I'm also not kidding that to get the ores in my picture above it required multiple people and several dozen hours to perform.


Pics of the piston machine in action: (this was the first version that was not automated, we had someone sitting at every turn in the zig zag pulling levers)

Cwraot9.png


uoqc9AW.png


tOzMWQ7.png

5SmVdRV.png



The pictures above are actually the quick and easy part. Most of the time spent in making this machine is moving the ores into a line from wherever they were found. It's only pheasable to do this with ores around or already inside our region as the town expands. Even though our town has this blob of ores in our farm our members still spend alot of time mining in the middle of nowhere for exp and material gain, which seems a little contrary to the original post - as they are very much still in danger. If there exists a town out there that has done this kind of work in their farm that is bigger and better I'd like to see it, because I'm not convinced such a thing exists.
 
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Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
Let me share some screenshots to get everyone on the same page. I'd also like to ask @TightSqueeze if he knows of any towns besides Drastikos that have pistoned ores into their region? I was under the impression (given the mod/admin interest in seeing the machine in action and watching our first farm) that we were the first. I can confirm that the ammount of ores we have now was several dozens of hours spaced out across several weeks of hard work. @Symbolite and @gtastuntdude can break down how much work this is as they designed the piston machine that brought the ores into region once they were lined up into the machine.

@Kainzo I think we are all on the same page that ores that drop on break like iron and gold as well as ores that are silk touch'd are not meant to be placed back down. This would be a dangerous exploit of the amount of exp they drop and I was there on Zeal to see this change go live myself. Of course that shouldn't be allowed.

What @LordZelkova is talking about is something our town did with pistons. Since ores on this map leave behind spider webs after breaking and regenerate 5 IRL days later, we can break them again for the exp. To take advantage of this we used pistons to line them up into a large piston machine and move them into our regions so we can break them once a week for big exp gains. Like I said at the start of this post, the actual moving of these ores was a monumental ammount of time and I don't think anybody has done it but us, at least not on this scale. The only other township that rivals Drastikos in manpower to even try this is probably @Skaahr's town.

This is what it looks like in our farms right now:

UETU0EK.png


The first time we broke the ores @ironee212 changed classes to smith (for exp gain purposes she was a tier2 combat class for this) and in a party of about 7 people she went from 1 - 55 smith. This was also with all 5 castles captured and I bought a serverwide 200% experience boost. The people in our party who were tier1 combat classes did not get very much experience (@Sidgil and @Hydroking77 for reference) and were a bit disappointed.

I don't feel like this should be considered exploitation in any way because the server decides when these ores respawn from cobwebs and that duration of time can be increased if it becomes a problem. I'm also not kidding that to get the ores in my picture above it required multiple people and several dozen hours to perform.


Pics of the piston machine in action: (this was the first version that was not automated, we had someone sitting at every turn in the zig zag pulling levers)

Cwraot9.png


uoqc9AW.png


tOzMWQ7.png

5SmVdRV.png



The pictures above are actually the quick and easy part. Most of the time spent in making this machine is moving the ores into a line from wherever they were found. It's only pheasable to do this with ores around or already inside our region as the town expands. Even though our town has this blob of ores in our farm our members still spend alot of time mining in the middle of nowhere for exp and material gain, which seems a little contrary to the original post - as they are very much still in danger. If there exists a town out there that has done this kind of work in their farm that is bigger and better I'd like to see it, because I'm not convinced such a thing exists.



tl;dr

The exp exploitation @Kainzo is talking about is already restricted by the server. What my town is doing that @LordZelkova pointed out involves moving the location of ores into a safe place so they can be mined and respawn with the cobwebs 5 IRL days later, which is not the same thing Kainzo was talking about (placing and breaking repeatedly)
 

Symbolite

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Since I was one of the main people responsible for bringing in these ores to a central locations from the dig to bedrock in our town region I should probably comment on this... The final result, dielan's first image took me roughly a week and a half to accomplish. After a while of moving ores you develop systems of moving them so I'd say I definitely sped up the process towards the end of that time frame. To get the ores lined up in the way they are in Dielan's last picture literally takes hours of time, and then to get them moving together to their final location? Even more hours! If anyone else has actually done this I commend you on your effort because it is a bitch of a job, let me tell you!

It's easy to scream nerf nerf nerf when you see an end result, but if you witnessed what went into it you'd probably think differently!
 

TightSqueeze

Stone
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
I get that y'all are proud of yalls work, the amount of hours and grit put in is impressive. But the amount of towns doing this, and the amount of time/effort put in is completely irrelevant. The issues i'm having with this is: 1 ore is being essentially placed in a safe zone for farming, negating the inherent risk involved with mining on a pvp server, and 2 if essentially placing ore to freely mine is ok, then the ability to do so should not be available only to large towns with resources to do so. If farming ore in this way is legal, then someone brand new to the server should be able to put in a little effort and get a silk pick to do so. It seems like the only thing preventing this from happening is mass exp gain from breaking the ore over and over...make the silk touch pick you buy not provide exp...or better yet make it take away the exp it would have normally provided. Make that enchantment provide you the ability to harvest ore and exp in the long run, but smack you hard in the short term. Overall, I think the ability to safely farm ores is detrimental to pvp. Kainzo literally just posted a thread a few hours ago saying how he wanted the server to be brutal, what's so brutal about having completely self contained towns you never have to leave the safety of?
 

Hydroking77

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
I get that y'all are proud of yalls work, the amount of hours and grit put in is impressive. But the amount of towns doing this, and the amount of time/effort put in is completely irrelevant. The issues i'm having with this is: 1 ore is being essentially placed in a safe zone for farming, negating the inherent risk involved with mining on a pvp server, and 2 if essentially placing ore to freely mine is ok, then the ability to do so should not be available only to large towns with resources to do so. If farming ore in this way is legal, then someone brand new to the server should be able to put in a little effort and get a silk pick to do so. It seems like the only thing preventing this from happening is mass exp gain from breaking the ore over and over...make the silk touch pick you buy not provide exp...or better yet make it take away the exp it would have normally provided. Make that enchantment provide you the ability to harvest ore and exp in the long run, but smack you hard in the short term. Overall, I think the ability to safely farm ores is detrimental to pvp. Kainzo literally just posted a thread a few hours ago saying how he wanted the server to be brutal, what's so brutal about having completely self contained towns you never have to leave the safety of?
The resources gained from the ores is very little compare to an hour of mining. The main purpose of it is for exp not resources. How do you think we get the nonrenewable ores in great abundances? We do mine quite often to keep our redstone amount up to par, which again we have to find in the world. On top of all of this, we had dug our town out to bedrock and a large chunk of the ores seen were already in our region. Work put in should give an equal reward.
 

Symbolite

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
I get that y'all are proud of yalls work, the amount of hours and grit put in is impressive. But the amount of towns doing this, and the amount of time/effort put in is completely irrelevant. The issues i'm having with this is: 1 ore is being essentially placed in a safe zone for farming, negating the inherent risk involved with mining on a pvp server, and 2 if essentially placing ore to freely mine is ok, then the ability to do so should not be available only to large towns with resources to do so. If farming ore in this way is legal, then someone brand new to the server should be able to put in a little effort and get a silk pick to do so. It seems like the only thing preventing this from happening is mass exp gain from breaking the ore over and over...make the silk touch pick you buy not provide exp...or better yet make it take away the exp it would have normally provided. Make that enchantment provide you the ability to harvest ore and exp in the long run, but smack you hard in the short term. Overall, I think the ability to safely farm ores is detrimental to pvp. Kainzo literally just posted a thread a few hours ago saying how he wanted the server to be brutal, what's so brutal about having completely self contained towns you never have to leave the safety of?

Someone brand new to the server and townless could accomplish this no problem. They need to level up engineer to whatever level they need to place pistons, and they need enough coins to purchase the protection of a residence. Anyone can do this if they just put in the effort. Also, what other towns are doing this. I've heard nothing about it from anyone and everyone who has seen our accomplishment has given us the vibe that the idea was pretty much unheard of before us.
 

Symbolite

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
The resources gained from the ores is very little compare to an hour of mining. The main purpose of it is for exp not resources. How do you think we get the nonrenewable ores in great abundances? We do mine quite often to keep our redstone amount up to par, which again we have to find in the world. On top of all of this, we had dug our town out to bedrock and a large chunk of the ores seen were already in our region. Work put in should give an equal reward.

We do build with lapis way to much for our own good.... The amount of mining trips we have to make. If anyone set up a lapis shop at spawn they'd probably get good business from us lol
 

iAlchemist

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
May 29, 2015
Let me share some screenshots to get everyone on the same page. I'd also like to ask @TightSqueeze if he knows of any towns besides Drastikos that have pistoned ores into their region? I was under the impression (given the mod/admin interest in seeing the machine in action and watching our first farm) that we were the first. I can confirm that the ammount of ores we have now was several dozens of hours spaced out across several weeks of hard work. @Symbolite and @gtastuntdude can break down how much work this is as they designed the piston machine that brought the ores into region once they were lined up into the machine.

@Kainzo I think we are all on the same page that ores that drop on break like iron and gold as well as ores that are silk touch'd are not meant to be placed back down. This would be a dangerous exploit of the amount of exp they drop and I was there on Zeal to see this change go live myself. Of course that shouldn't be allowed.

What @LordZelkova is talking about is something our town did with pistons. Since ores on this map leave behind spider webs after breaking and regenerate 5 IRL days later, we can break them again for the exp. To take advantage of this we used pistons to line them up into a large piston machine and move them into our regions so we can break them once a week for big exp gains. Like I said at the start of this post, the actual moving of these ores was a monumental ammount of time and I don't think anybody has done it but us, at least not on this scale. The only other township that rivals Drastikos in manpower to even try this is probably @Skaahr's town.

This is what it looks like in our farms right now:

UETU0EK.png


The first time we broke the ores @ironee212 changed classes to smith (for exp gain purposes she was a tier2 combat class for this) and in a party of about 7 people she went from 1 - 55 smith. This was also with all 5 castles captured and I bought a serverwide 200% experience boost. The people in our party who were tier1 combat classes did not get very much experience (@Sidgil and @Hydroking77 for reference) and were a bit disappointed.

I don't feel like this should be considered exploitation in any way because the server decides when these ores respawn from cobwebs and that duration of time can be increased if it becomes a problem. I'm also not kidding that to get the ores in my picture above it required multiple people and several dozen hours to perform.


Pics of the piston machine in action: (this was the first version that was not automated, we had someone sitting at every turn in the zig zag pulling levers)

Cwraot9.png


uoqc9AW.png


tOzMWQ7.png

5SmVdRV.png



The pictures above are actually the quick and easy part. Most of the time spent in making this machine is moving the ores into a line from wherever they were found. It's only pheasable to do this with ores around or already inside our region as the town expands. Even though our town has this blob of ores in our farm our members still spend alot of time mining in the middle of nowhere for exp and material gain, which seems a little contrary to the original post - as they are very much still in danger. If there exists a town out there that has done this kind of work in their farm that is bigger and better I'd like to see it, because I'm not convinced such a thing exists.
First of all, as a guy who adores redstone...that's fucking incredible and I commend you both for it. I'm sorta sad I wasn't part of the project. I love this sort of stuff.

I've worked with moving ores for other projects on previous maps, such as moving gold for a gold mine for production in Valorium. That, in itself was a challenging endeavor for two individuals, so it's unimaginable how difficult it would be to transport ores en mass and place them in a very specific place. The sheer amount of manpower and work put into it seems to be payment enough.

I don't see any real issue with this particular process, because it requires a large segment of player co-operation. I think they earned the right to do this by just undertaking the task.

And those finished farms appear to be on the surface. The surface of the town is still a dangerous place. If you want to kill them, jump the walls and simply wait.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
I get that y'all are proud of yalls work, the amount of hours and grit put in is impressive. But the amount of towns doing this, and the amount of time/effort put in is completely irrelevant. The issues i'm having with this is: 1 ore is being essentially placed in a safe zone for farming, negating the inherent risk involved with mining on a pvp server, and 2 if essentially placing ore to freely mine is ok, then the ability to do so should not be available only to large towns with resources to do so. If farming ore in this way is legal, then someone brand new to the server should be able to put in a little effort and get a silk pick to do so. It seems like the only thing preventing this from happening is mass exp gain from breaking the ore over and over...make the silk touch pick you buy not provide exp...or better yet make it take away the exp it would have normally provided. Make that enchantment provide you the ability to harvest ore and exp in the long run, but smack you hard in the short term. Overall, I think the ability to safely farm ores is detrimental to pvp. Kainzo literally just posted a thread a few hours ago saying how he wanted the server to be brutal, what's so brutal about having completely self contained towns you never have to leave the safety of?


How many towns can you confirm are doing this on this scale? It is 5 days IRL to Regen each ore so to gain a meaningful hoard or resources our only option is to go mining. @victim130 can post the screenshot of hr resources we hauled from the farmed ores and it really is not sustainable for an active community. I don't understand why you think we aren't going out mining. This is not even close to an alternative and is only good for exp. We spend plenty of time outside of our town and outside of safezones
 

JacobBurkey

Portal
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
And those finished farms appear to be on the surface. The surface of the town is still a dangerous place. If you want to kill them, jump the walls and simply wait.
idk if blind or not but do you not see the ceiling of black wool????????????
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
How many towns can you confirm are doing this on this scale? It is 5 days IRL to Regen each ore so to gain a meaningful hoard or resources our only option is to go mining. @victim130 can post the screenshot of hr resources we hauled from the farmed ores and it really is not sustainable for an active community. I don't understand why you think we aren't going out mining. This is not even close to an alternative and is only good for exp. We spend plenty of time outside of our town and outside of safezones
idk if I have the screen anymore, but it wasn't as much as I'd get from a regular trip across at least 2 hours. Although, it was doubled die to my fortune pick, but regularly, its not much.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
I get that y'all are proud of yalls work, the amount of hours ... what's so brutal about having completely self contained towns you never have to leave the safety of?

These ores are maybe a half inventory full and 500-1000c of souls every 5 days, split amongst the entire township. That's nothing. I can go mining for an hour and pull 300-600c / hr off of excavating with god picks. Know how to mine.

How does mining have anything to do with PVP? IF people didn't mine there wouldn't be any items to PVP with. Where were you when they were outside their regen pistoning ores? If your argument is 'we pvp miners to get profits' and then you never pvp'd them while spending hundreds of hours pistoning ores into their town, you're just upset you either didn't know about it, or you're flat out lying about pvping people who mine. I'd wager both.

They can't use silk touch to break and place ores for EXP, it doesn't work like that. ..and you never provided a logical reason behind your statement of "Overall, I think the ability to safely farm ores is detrimental to pvp."

"self contained towns" is a cancerous topic because this is minecraft. Every single town with regions has 'self contained areas'. I don't know why you'd even think that there are any towns or residences without a 'self contained area'. You do realize this? That's the whole point. Right?

I mean, I know you guys aren't building anything pretty like in our last maps. So, who cares? You'd have a more valid argument about a dome being ugly compared to this giant castle I built than anything you've said so far.
 
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