War of the Nations Boycott

[Yavool]

Hello, fellow Herocraft patrons:

On behalf of the town of Ravenhold and its nine members, we are officially boycotting this and all subsequent Saturdays as a way to protest @Kainzo's implementation of the "War of the Nations."

At this time, towns outside of nations are basically cannon fodder for TNT-based breach and exploitation. There is literally no way to protect ourselves, our town's supplies, or our livestock from this. Our raw material chests have already been pilfered, our livestock all killed, and we have no safe quarter even within our own town when we are online.

Accordingly, you will not be seeing us on Saturdays.

We will be willing to come back once @Kainzo alters the way that this undesired-to-PVE towns "event" happens, such that we are able to permanently opt-out. Herocraft has gone from having it's own PVE map at one time to now having no safe place for PVE players whatsoever; I see this as a slap in the face of both contributors and non-contributors alike who wish to enjoy the platform of Herocraft's MMORPG feel, but who do not wish to be forced into PVP.

I invite the rest of the patrons of Herocraft who believe as I do to boycott Saturdays also. Please let @Kainzo know of your disapproval in the same manner that the town of Ravenhold will be doing: by not showing up to play at all.

Thank you,

-yavool

 

[Piptendo]

Hello, fellow Herocraft patrons:

On behalf of the town of Ravenhold and its nine members, we are officially boycotting this and all subsequent Saturdays as a way to protest @Kainzo's implementation of the "War of the Nations."

At this time, towns outside of nations are basically cannon fodder for TNT-based breach and exploitation. There is literally no way to protect ourselves, our town's supplies, or our livestock from this. Our raw material chests have already been pilfered, our livestock all killed, and we have no safe quarter even within our own town when we are online.

Accordingly, you will not be seeing us on Saturdays.

We will be willing to come back once @Kainzo alters the way that this undesired-to-PVE towns "event" happens, such that we are able to permanently opt-out. Herocraft has gone from having it's own PVE map at one time to now having no safe place for PVE players whatsoever; I see this as a slap in the face of both contributors and non-contributors alike who wish to enjoy the platform of Herocraft's MMORPG feel, but who do not wish to be forced into PVP.

I invite the rest of the patrons of Herocraft who believe as I do to boycott Saturdays also. Please let @Kainzo know of your disapproval in the same manner that the town of Ravenhold will be doing: by not showing up to play at all.

Thank you,

-yavool

Herocraft has needed a change like this for quite some time. This is no place for pure PvE-orientation. Herocraft strives to achieve a healthy balance of both: those who PvP must PvE to get quickest experience, and those who PvE must be subject to an occasional raid or two. Or ten. Or a hundred. People shouldn't get to barricade themselves underground and hide so many items that they're never going to use except to hit a mob or two during a dungeon. Where is the thrill of the hunt? Where is the excitement of using Heroes for one of its main purposes, PvP?

Nine players boycotting a war system that has been needing implementation for five years by doing nothing more than refusing to play on Saturdays is asinine in my eyes. There have been far too many changes that favor the PvE community we have, with no result except those who partake in regular PvP losing people to fight with. It gets boring for us to fight the same people day after day, with no new knowledge or experiences being shared. It's the same people playing the same classes over and over. By forcing PvEers to PvP (just as PvPers were forced to PvE what with these dungeons), Herocraft yet again achieves that balance in the community as it deserves. You have six days of the week to play Herocraft. What is taking a break on Saturdays going to do to anyone? You're just nine people who share the same idea. Logging off on Saturdays just makes it to where you won't die in the process of your town getting raided. Look: during War, the count of players is at its highest. Nobody is going to join you in your "anti-War cause," and those who do will also get lots of negative feedback from the community.

If you think you and your friends' absences on Saturdays is going to remove the war system entirely, you're gravely mistaken. There are far too many players who are pleased with these changes that aren't going to be disappointed because nine simple players won't log into the server. A simple fix: just log in, and PvE like you do best. The effect you're leaving on the community by running away from change is 100% the same as if you just stayed and did dungeons.

tl;dr: Yavool, on behalf of many PvPers, we thank you for the loots of your town, and for not standing in our way as we take it. You won't be missed, because you'll obviously continue to play on weekdays and Sundays.

-=If you honestly think that a PvP-free experience is available on a server filled with PvP like Herocraft, you're again, gravely mistaken. Those who seek a lack of PvP are best suited packing their bags and finding somewhere else.=-

EDIT: @GodOfGales of all people should at least have the common decency to explain why he disagrees.

 

[LordZelkova]

I'll drop the 2 cents I've been throwing around.

It's unfair to force people into PvP. PvE is part of the game, how else do you level? PvP Is ON everywhere. The opportunity is ALWAYS there. When you force someone to lose their protections, that have daily costs and upkeep and aren't always cheap, and day in and day out take all their crap, of course they're gonna want out.

The main issues is that ONLY NATIONS CAN OPT OUT. Regular towns are doomed because they can be raided with no way to stop it. Nations pay a hefty fee to opt out, non-nationed towns are over.

Losing literally anything not in an LWC can be a game ender for many people.

-=If you honestly think that a PvP-free experience is available on a server filled with PvP like Herocraft, you're again, gravely mistaken. Those who seek a lack of PvP are best suited packing their bags and finding somewhere else.=-
.

Quotes like this are the reason some people do leave. And the PvPer's wonder where the death fodder went.
Pillaging and stealing from every town and player just makes new ones leave. Old players or some dedicated new ones fight through, but new ones are deterred.

Note: I'm incredibly tired because it's 1:30 am, so this isn't a whole response, mainly just what I feel about war and PvP vs PvE.
Note 2: For reference, this map alone I've lost everything 3 times. Twice to raiders at the start of the map, and once to a accident with a PE. It's not like I sit in a safety box either, I roam, I mine, I PvP occasionally when it comes to it.
Note 3: I'll be watching this thread, I don't want to see another 10 page war about PvE and PvP.

@Piptendo Let me put it this way.
Find a different way to level other than killing things. This is an RPG, go break the mold and redesign the RPG. Once you remove PvE from RPG's you can use "PvPers have to PvE to level!!" as an argument.

 

[KingNate42]

I do not believe that people come to the server with an elaborate heroes system for PvE. Obviously though, you believe in that part of the server though, so i will take that into consideration. But for a major part of the community in the past that i believe were PvPers when the server was in its prime, and with a new revamped system including the war system to get loot and what not from towns is awesome. I mean if you really hate losing some stuff then get a plot at spawn to stash most of your stuff then, i dont know. But to truly saying you are going to boycott a system that was an attempt to bring a portion of the pvp community together is childish. Yes can it be improved in some ways, yeah, but again you have to realize there are two communities in the server and this was an attempted to help a side in dire need for a LONG time.

Also im tired so excuse misspellings or junk

 

[Kainzo]

The preferred method will be to pay for neutrality from TNT, this isnt in yet and there's no ETA when it will be in.

Fluid PVP is something that we've needed for a long time and while I agree with some of your points, I feel like overall, this change has increased incentive to play.

 

[LightTheAbsol]

Seems like some people really want this to be cuddle and hit mobs - craft.

Looking back, I can't fathom how I defended PvE.

 

[LordZelkova]

Seems like some people really want this to be cuddle and hit mobs - craft.

Looking back, I can't fathom how I defended PvE.

I don't think anyone here has asked for the complete removal of raids, or PvP.
They want the system to give everyone the fair chance to defend themselves. Towns not part of a nation cannot opt out, so they don't even get the choice.

PvE and PvP are starting to get these bad vibes around them, people need to remember that they're just play styles. PvE is not a call for removal of PvE and PvE is not a call for the slaughter of all players except a select few.

 

[Mischevity]

Honestly, HC started out as a PvP server to my knowledge. It should stay that way unless someone pays kain millions to change it. PvE was a mistake. Now all everyone does is hide, and nobody is really prepared for any real combat, because there never is any. If you want a chill leveling experience, level in T4 and below. That's my keyboard warrior shit.

Eck dee mang

 

[LordZelkova]

Honestly, HC started out as a PvP server to my knowledge. It should stay that way unless someone pays kain millions to change it. PvE was a mistake. Now all everyone does is hide, and nobody is really prepared for any real combat, because there never is any. If you want a chill leveling experience, level in T4 and below. That's my keyboard warrior shit.

Eck dee mang

Please read my post above yours.
"PvE" is not a mistake, it's a separate playstyle and part of the RPG as a whole.
Feel free to reinvent the RPG leveling experience, but please do not say "PvE" is a bad idea. It's a part of the experience just as much as PvP is.

 

[LightTheAbsol]

Honestly, HC started out as a PvP server to my knowledge. It should stay that way unless someone pays kain millions to change it. PvE was a mistake. Now all everyone does is hide, and nobody is really prepared for any real combat, because there never is any. If you want a chill leveling experience, level in T4 and below. That's my keyboard warrior shit.

Eck dee mang

^ This guy.

 

[Mischevity]

Please read my post above yours.
"PvE" is not a mistake, it's a separate playstyle and part of the RPG as a whole.
Feel free to reinvent the RPG leveling experience, but please do not say "PvE" is a bad idea. It's a part of the experience just as much as PvP is.

Nonetheless it's still an awful concept, HC was a hardcore server and now it's like softcore porn, sad and dissapointing.

 

[LordZelkova]

Nonetheless it's still an awful concept, HC was a hardcore server and now it's like softcore porn, sad and dissapointing.

"Hardcore" also has a bad tone to it.
People use "Hardcore" as an excuse to bitch about people who don't want to PvP.
Herocraft always had ways of protection, they're just more prevalent now.
People have always found ways to avoid PvP, there's just less overall PvPers now.

Minecraft has changed, the top servers aren't survival PvP servers, they're minigames with factions, hungergames, and the like.

PvE is something that is embedded in the progression system of RPG's. You grind, you level up, then you fight stronger shit. You don't join WoW and straight to the max level PvP servers, you grind it out and work your way up.
Quests and events help make the experience not one noted, and that's what the Dungeons were supposed to help do.
I still wish Quests were expanded on live, but we have Adventure coming in with quests and it's own world.

 

[_Trains_]

When did this turn into a war? Recently, we have been flooded with new forum posts arguing on PVE and PVP changes. For years, we have always accepted the PvE and PvP communities, with different servers and sections for each.

What I see to be the problem, is that PvE is now stepping in the zone of the PvPers, and Vice Versa. We have abilities to OP out of a war, where other people wanted to go full on. We have safe zones where people can't attack us, and we have PvPers spawn camping others. What was once a harmony between one and another, has now turned into a fierce verbal battle.

 

[Irishman81]

When did this turn into a war? Recently, we have been flooded with new forum posts arguing on PVE and PVP changes. For years, we have always accepted the PvE and PvP communities, with different servers and sections for each.

What I see to be the problem, is that PvE is now stepping in the zone of the PvPers, and Vice Versa. We have abilities to OP out of a war, where other people wanted to go full on. We have safe zones where people can't attack us, and we have PvPers spawn camping others. What was once a harmony between one and another, has now turned into a fierce verbal battle.

Honestly it was never harmony lol

 

[Yavool]

The preferred method will be to pay for neutrality from TNT, this isnt in yet and there's no ETA when it will be in.

Fluid PVP is something that we've needed for a long time and while I agree with some of your points, I feel like overall, this change has increased incentive to play.

Take a look at your numbers; if "vote 4's" graph of active players over the past month is correct, it really hasn't made much of any difference at all. If anything, it has caused the same PVP regulars who would be online on a Saturday anyway a bit more happy, and for those of us who prefer PVE, your choice has deterred us from playing. I see no win-win in your choice; only "fun for some at the cost of others," which as @LordZelkova stated above, is akin to shoving PVP down the throats of PVEers, "It's unfair to force people into PvP."

Sending out a half-baked idea on to the live server, in my humble opinion, is irresponsible. Releasing something where "The preferred method will be to pay for neutrality from TNT, this isnt in yet and there's no ETA when it will be in." is disrespectful to a portion of your player base; in my modest dealings with many businesses over the past 20+ years of my life, effectively shutting out *any* patrons is a poor choice unless you are so swamped with numbers that you can be selective... given the 30-80 players on at any given time, I do not see how shutting out a single patron of your server is in your best interest, both for immediate gains, or for long-term gains. Food for thought, @Kainzo.

-yav

 

[RegularHumanMode]

Take a look at your numbers; if "vote 4's" graph of active players over the past month is correct, it really hasn't made much of any difference at all. If anything, it has caused the same PVP regulars who would be online on a Saturday anyway a bit more happy, and for those of us who prefer PVE, your choice has deterred us from playing. I see no win-win in your choice; only "fun for some at the cost of others," which as @LordZelkova stated above, is akin to shoving PVP down the throats of PVEers, "It's unfair to force people into PvP."

Sending out a half-baked idea on to the live server, in my humble opinion, is irresponsible. Releasing something where "The preferred method will be to pay for neutrality from TNT, this isnt in yet and there's no ETA when it will be in." is disrespectful to a portion of your player base; in my modest dealings with many businesses over the past 20+ years of my life, effectively shutting out *any* patrons is a poor choice unless you are so swamped with numbers that you can be selective... given the 30-80 players on at any given time, I do not see how shutting out a single patron of your server is in your best interest, both for immediate gains, or for long-term gains. Food for thought, @Kainzo.

-yav

I'll take the role of the average player in this. I do not PvP often, and I usually stick to PvE or building. I do, however, GREATLY appreciate some good PvP here and there. The Saturday wars are incentive to either raid or get raided. So what if you lose some items? At the end of the day you've probably had a good time giving it your best shot to stick it to some of the more hardcore PvPers. If I had no desire or ability to actually participate, I always have the option of going into a dungeon and waiting for the fighting to die down.

What I am trying to say, but likely not communicating, is that the server is not nearly as fun with only one of these aspects. Sure, they may not be totally harmonized, but they add to each other in a way that makes the server much more enjoyable.

 

[Kainzo]

Take a look at your numbers; if "vote 4's" graph of active players over the past month is correct, it really hasn't made much of any difference at all. If anything, it has caused the same PVP regulars who would be online on a Saturday anyway a bit more happy, and for those of us who prefer PVE, your choice has deterred us from playing. I see no win-win in your choice; only "fun for some at the cost of others," which as @LordZelkova stated above, is akin to shoving PVP down the throats of PVEers, "It's unfair to force people into PvP."

Sending out a half-baked idea on to the live server, in my humble opinion, is irresponsible. Releasing something where "The preferred method will be to pay for neutrality from TNT, this isnt in yet and there's no ETA when it will be in." is disrespectful to a portion of your player base; in my modest dealings with many businesses over the past 20+ years of my life, effectively shutting out *any* patrons is a poor choice unless you are so swamped with numbers that you can be selective... given the 30-80 players on at any given time, I do not see how shutting out a single patron of your server is in your best interest, both for immediate gains, or for long-term gains. Food for thought, @Kainzo.

-yav

I could see if this change was happening every single day, or it occurred several times a week.

I believe having "nation wars" every other saturday would be healthy, I am working with the devs on getting it patched so those who buy neutrality wont have any possible method to be TNT'd. This is the goal. We want everyone to be in the economy, if you pay for neutrality, it will go to the winners of the war, if you pay taxes, it also goes to the winners.

One day out of the week isnt "shoving it" to the pve players. The current system is not the final system.

 

[FaZeAlpine]

Take a look at your numbers; if "vote 4's" graph of active players over the past month is correct, it really hasn't made much of any difference at all. If anything, it has caused the same PVP regulars who would be online on a Saturday anyway a bit more happy, and for those of us who prefer PVE, your choice has deterred us from playing. I see no win-win in your choice; only "fun for some at the cost of others," which as @LordZelkova stated above, is akin to shoving PVP down the throats of PVEers, "It's unfair to force people into PvP."

To be fair, the implementation of the PVE world in Aegis, and later the PVE continent on Valorium was met with negative reviews that it caused dozens and dozens of PVP players to leave and quit. Similarly to what you're describing, it deterred many PVP players from playing, but in comparison this change is so minuscule in the sense that, the addition of PVE ultimately changed everything the server was, for the past 4-5 maps before that. The majority of three of the largest nations/player groups on the server (which were "coincidentally" PVP prominent) all left. Keeping in touch with the 30+ people who would actively play and PVP, we asked them why'd you leave? The collective answer was due to the implementation of PVE.

Honestly it was never harmony lol

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only times where PVE and PVP worked in harmony were during Haven and any map before. (PVE in less of an entity sense and more of a, building, mining, economy-focused, sense.)

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When people argue about PVP and PVE, I've realized, nobody wins. Because the truth is, no matter what you, can never really find the perfect way to harmonize PVP and PVE on a Herocraft. The way Herocraft is setup, the limitations it has because its a MINECRAFT server, as well as the lower population player base really makes it so that PVP players are forced to rely on PVE players for satisfaction. In return the PVE players get angry, unsatisfied and wants things to change. No group can ever be happy because theres no way for them to be happy with how Herocraft is, and the population being as low as it is.

A factions server with 80 players will usually have no problems PVP wise, because everyone there is there for PVP. A PVE server with 80 players willusually have no problems PVE wise, because their enjoyment rely on anything other than players PVPing. A RPG server (PVP and PVE elements) with 80 players will always have unsatisfied players because they are both forced to do what they don't want to do: Rely on each other for their playstyle.

 

[Yavool]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only times where PVE and PVP worked in harmony were during Haven and any map before. (PVE in less of an entity sense and more of a, building, mining, economy-focused, sense.)

I agree. And, on that line: @Kainzo, please give us PVErs back a Haven-style PVE map.

Keep towny set up the same way;
keep the trade district centralized as it is;
have the same Herogate/dungeon gates/etc to the main hub setup as Citadel;
let items be fully transferable;
make sure backpacks work;
let the lottery and chat channels cross over maps;
implement enhanced worldwide mob spawning and livestock spawning for the PVE map only;
let the random loot be PVP only;
don't make the world an "ultra extreme hills" like Haven was;
and let us enjoy the RPG aspect of Herocraft without the PVP.

Then do whatever the heck you want with the war system on Citadel: go crazy and have war on at all times. Implement nukes that blow up nations in one fell swoop. Whatever tickles the PVP population's fancy. Then, if PVErs want top opt-in to the wars, they will join cities on Citadel and you will have some crossover by those who actually want to have the crossover. Problem solved.

Dump the "basic RPG" world idea, and instead promote the PVP server and the PVE server to new users that you think would most appreciate each world for the different reasons that each group already does. Spend 90% of your time empowering the PVP world and all that you want it to be... pay attention to the PVErs 10% of the time...just enough to hear an occasional request or feedback that we may have or to address bugs.

-yav

 

[Jrr_]

Keeping in touch with the 30+ people who would actively play and PVP, we asked them why'd you leave? The collective answer was due to the implementation of PVE.

no, minecraft just got boring, nothing to do with hc. Lots of the old pvp'ers that dont play the hc anymore left because the game got old. The game isnt in its hay day like it used to be.

Your answer is kind of correct like it pissed off people but thing is people considered pvp killing noobs and when the noobs went to pve it was no fun. But the pvp'ers were still there at the start so the fact they left meant they were sick of fighting the same people because it was repetitive. It's not like potpvp servers with 8 30man power factions and heaps of other little factions to fight.