Suggestion [Townships] PVE vs PVP problems

[Beau_Nearh]

Problem;

+PVE based towns have a huge advantage over PVP based towns in terms of defending
+PVE raids boil down to who has the most money and materials
+There's very few ways to defend and attack or to siege a target
+Very few ways to lower a SR's power

Suggestion;

+New region; War beacon
---when aimed at a target SR, all PVP flags are turned on within both SR's
---If a SR isn't targeted, a radius of; 49-89 has it's PVP flags turned on regardless of location
---Can only be activated once every four hours
---Drains outpost/military base of 35-50 power per use (requires diamond AND OR TNT to use as a regent)
---Every time a player is killed, 2-4 power is drained from the SR they belong to (includes raiders that are killed or randoms)
---Location of region is announced to server (coords are given in chat every time it's activated)

+New region; Soul barrier
--when aimed at a target SR, all soul items cannot be produced OR products produced are reduced by 50% (all regions)
--for every cycle (24 hours), 25 power is drained from SR region is built in (outpost/ military base)
--costs 200 souls per cycle

Thoughts;

Currently as it stands, for a successful raid to take place in PVE. The targeted SR must not know that it's currently under siege and/or it has more funding that the targeted SR (in most cases this isn't true). Now from the defenders point of view, there are very few ways of defending against a well set up outpost (only way of disabling it is to drain the outposts power using a defence cannon) as killing the attackers isn't an option in PVE.

Now, this is both an advantage and disadvantage for PVE based SR's as on one side. To successfully defend your town, you just got to make sure you have the materials to keep a defence cannon going and very deep pockets while on the other hand. There are very few ways to actually stop a successful siege from taking place.

So, to address these factors and to make siege'ing more viable in general. I would like to see a region like the suggested above "war beacon" added as it gives both the attackers and defenders another way of lowering each other's SR power and enables people to actually defend/ attack a SR. Now the whole point of the suggested "soul barrier" region is to give the attackers a way of lowering the money income of targeted SR's reducing the factor of whoever has the most money wins.

Note - See war beacons as a player made 'objective' of sorts (another key spot to attract PVP).

@Alator

 

[jan9f]

Sounds cool and all, but I think you're forgetting that there's a reason people settle in the PvE zone, rather than the PvP.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Sounds cool and all, but I think you're forgetting that there's a reason people settle in the PvE zone, rather than the PvP.

I fully understand this as I have too settled in a PVE zone myself (FerrumMous). But honestly I think there really needs to be counters against the current system that PVE SR's have which is pretty much 'whoever has the most money and materials wins'. From a balance point of view, PVE towns have a huge advantage apposed to their PVP counterparts. I suppose as townships is further developed, little kinks like this will be ironed out but there really needs to be something in addition added for siege'ing/ defending SR's in PVE.

 

[GoodGrief]

Don't most wars RL boil down to resource control?
The Golden Rule: Those with the gold makes the rules.

 

[devotedworker]

Problem;

+PVE based towns have a huge advantage over PVP based towns in terms of defending
+PVE raids boil down to who has the most money and materials
+There's very few ways to defend and attack or to siege a target
+Very few ways to lower a SR's power

Suggestion;

+New region; War beacon
---when aimed at a target SR, all PVP flags are turned on within both SR's
---If a SR isn't targeted, a radius of; 49-89 has it's PVP flags turned on regardless of location
---Can only be activated once every four hours
---Drains outpost/military base of 35-50 power per use (requires diamond AND OR TNT to use as a regent)
---Every time a player is killed, 2-4 power is drained from the SR they belong to (includes raiders that are killed or randoms)
---Location of region is announced to server (coords are given in chat every time it's activated)

+New region; Soul barrier
--when aimed at a target SR, all soul items cannot be produced OR products produced are reduced by 50% (all regions)
--for every cycle (24 hours), 25 power is drained from SR region is built in (outpost/ military base)
--costs 200 souls per cycle

Thoughts;

Currently as it stands, for a successful raid to take place in PVE. The targeted SR must not know that it's currently under siege and/or it has more funding that the targeted SR (in most cases this isn't true). Now from the defenders point of view, there are very few ways of defending against a well set up outpost (only way of disabling it is to drain the outposts power using a defence cannon) as killing the attackers isn't an option in PVE.

Now, this is both an advantage and disadvantage for PVE based SR's as on one side. To successfully defend your town, you just got to make sure you have the materials to keep a defence cannon going and very deep pockets while on the other hand. There are very few ways to actually stop a successful siege from taking place.

So, to address these factors and to make siege'ing more viable in general. I would like to see a region like the suggested above "war beacon" added as it gives both the attackers and defenders another way of lowering each other's SR power and enables people to actually defend/ attack a SR. Now the whole point of the suggested "soul barrier" region is to give the attackers a way of lowering the money income of targeted SR's reducing the factor of whoever has the most money wins.

Note - See war beacons as a player made 'objective' of sorts (another key spot to attract PVP).

@Alator

Its been established many times... Don't mess with PVP and PVE. Favoring to one side ends badly. Bountys have shown this really clearly ( As now you can attack people in spawn of all places ), and regardless on how much "PVE" is killing PVP and Raiding, its not going to help anyone to change it to be better for one side. Many alternative solutions have been placed. Raidporters, Temporary Turrets, and Siege Cannons, and yes it appeals to the people who are richer, but thats how PVE raiding works! There isn't any other way without favoring people who PVP and just allowing it regardless of the fact its PVE! Defend the PVE'ers! Stop changing stuff!

 

[devotedworker]

I fully understand this as I have too settled in a PVE zone myself (FerrumMous). But honestly I think there really needs to be counters against the current system that PVE SR's have which is pretty much 'whoever has the most money and materials wins'. From a balance point of view, PVE towns have a huge advantage apposed to their PVP counterparts. I suppose as townships is further developed, little kinks like this will be ironed out but there really needs to be something in addition added for siege'ing/ defending SR's in PVE.

I agree townships isn't done, and there are a lot of kinks. And this is the kind of attitude we need going forward, as not how to change things in the now, but fixing them as we go along ^-^ No need to rush things and mess things up!

 

[Beau_Nearh]

@devotedworker

At the moment for me personally, townships is really starting to be more of a hindrance in it's current state and is really starting to push me away from the plugin all together. It's just not fun anymore, players within certain SR's seem to have given up (look at all the big SR's that have recently fallen or most of their members becoming inactive). The concept of sieging is great but the actual sieging mechanics in place currently aren't the best. There's no need to actually work within a team (my SR has been built from the ground up by me and Thraxxon).

These key mechanics; team work, sieging, defending, progress. Really do need to be addressed before any more changes are made. There is no point in adding a load of new content if the base of the actual plugin itself isn't stable enough to support it. It really is a shame that it's got to this point (really am contemplating leaving townships all together).

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Don't most wars RL boil down to resource control?
The Golden Rule: Those with the gold makes the rules.

I do strongly agree with you on this but in terms of balance on this server, it shouldn't just boil down to who has the most money at all. at the moment, I can single handed siege and rob most SR's before half of them even realise what's going on.

 

[LordZelkova]

@devotedworker

At the moment for me personally, townships is really starting to be more of a hindrance in it's current state and is really starting to push me away from the plugin all together. It's just not fun anymore, players within certain SR's seem to have given up (look at all the big SR's that have recently fallen or most of their members becoming inactive). The concept of sieging is great but the actual sieging mechanics in place currently aren't the best. There's no need to actually work within a team (my SR has been built from the ground up by me and Thraxxon).

These key mechanics; team work, sieging, defending, progress. Really do need to be addressed before any more changes are made. There is no point in adding a load of new content if the base of the actual plugin itself isn't stable enough to support it. It really is a shame that it's got to this point (really am contemplating leaving townships all together).

The plugin is a lot of fun, however that fun goes away fast, especially when bugs, unbalance, and inactivity hits.

Pretty much everything you stated in the OP and your response to devoted were spot on.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

[The concept of sieging is great but the actual sieging mechanics in place currently aren't the best. There's no need to actually work within a team (my SR has been built from the ground up by me and Thraxxon).

These key mechanics; team work, sieging, defending, progress. Really do need to be addressed before any more changes are made. There is no point in adding a load of new content if the base of the actual plugin itself isn't stable enough to support it.

The SRs with major problems are getting getting sorted 1 by 1 (thanks @hilltim1). It appears the majority of towns are NOT having problems, in fact. But sure, it's rough on those that do.

I'm looking to get the plugin stable and working across the board before, as you say, further changes are made. So the big "further change" would be to develop the war/siege/raiding aspect to bring vitality to the game experience.

@Beau_Nearh in preparation for that stage, what specific improvements would you suggest? What are the advantages brought by those improvements and the possible disadvantages too? How would those improvements play out for the PvP community? For the PvE community?

I agree with you - teamwork, sieging, defending, progress - are the key aspects to be considered.

Looking forward to your further input!

 

[Beau_Nearh]

@WitchOnaRampage

Suggestion for teamwork;

+more profession specific regions
+more regions require player interaction (automation really cuts this whole process out)

Pros; gives more incentives to recruit new players, gives a sort of 'busy actively' within SR
Cons; could really stump the growth of SR's

Suggestion for siege'ing;

+seige cannons are fine but there needs to be a more costly way of draining power (perhaps a new siege region that can only be built in a M.Base)
+as much as I hate to say it, there needs to be PVP flags turned on within offensive SR's regardless of location on Valorium (something like the war beacon in OP)
+new regions that add a variety to the process of crippling a target SR (money drain, increased cycle times, other regions that are a pain in the arse to the target SR)
+for PVE siege'ing, would like to see a region that turns off mob spawning within a SR and spawns x amount if mobs every hour (each mob will have a reduced exp gain to stop farming)

Pros; gives more of a variety in terms if siege'ing, more options better suited for different targets/ intentions
Cons; PVP in PVE really needs to be avoided, maybe cut that region from PVE use

Note - sieging needs to feel like the world is ending/ shit is hitting the fan. It currently doesn't matter (most SR mayors don't even realise it's happening until they are told). Make it less about who has the most money too and more about what regions they are using to combat your regions.


Overall SR's;

+cut the cost of creating offensive SR's to 0
+have it so each tier of SR gains the ability to create a certain offensive region for free: eg hamlet can create an outpost, village can create 2 outposts, city can create military base ect. (Siege cannon costs needs to be kept)
+town infrastructure needs to be more permanent and require regents (will link my other posts at the bottom of this)

Pros; would really increase the amount of sieges taking place, gives more purpose for upgrading SR tier to reach better infrastructure
Cons; might cause too many sieges (not sure if this is a con )

Defending;

+more regions that have the ability to reduce target SR power
+regions to cripple the SR output (reduce ammo dump output, increase upkeep cost, decrease power gained per cycle ect)
+new region that can disable a targeted region (not SR) for x amount if time (would require defenders to realise what's causing the most problems and choose to disable that quickly)
+ability to 'lock down' SR. (All player interaction is disabled, all regions stop producing items/ using regents) think of this as a way to focus the siege more to PVP. Lock down applies for x time.

Pros; more variety, more fun, more ways of defending!
Cons; honestly don't think there is any from these suggestions

Progress;

+more specific town infrastructure per tier (better radius hospital, better graveyards, better ports ect per tier)
+allow mayors to adjust money gained form housing regions, eg: rather than SR gaining 20 souls per cycle from a shack, can be changed to 15 souls gained per cycle and the selected member gains 5 souls. (Links in with team work)
+postal region; allows you to funnel/ automate specific regions with outputs into a 'post office', this region will then distribute the items input into the region evenly though a set number of 'post box's. (Links into team work, another way if giving back to SR members fairly).

Pros; really links into team work, gives the feeling if accomplishment.
Cons; seems solid from my point of view

Those links I promised earlier;

http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/townships-arena-of-sorts.56448/
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/townships.56355/

 

[Watermelon_01]

@WitchOnaRampage

Suggestion for teamwork;

+more profession specific regions
+more regions require player interaction (automation really cuts this whole process out)

Pros; gives more incentives to recruit new players, gives a sort of 'busy actively' within SR
Cons; could really stump the growth of SR's

Suggestion for siege'ing;

+seige cannons are fine but there needs to be a more costly way of draining power (perhaps a new siege region that can only be built in a M.Base)
+as much as I hate to say it, there needs to be PVP flags turned on within offensive SR's regardless of location on Valorium (something like the war beacon in OP)
+new regions that add a variety to the process of crippling a target SR (money drain, increased cycle times, other regions that are a pain in the arse to the target SR)
+for PVE siege'ing, would like to see a region that turns off mob spawning within a SR and spawns x amount if mobs every hour (each mob will have a reduced exp gain to stop farming)

Pros; gives more of a variety in terms if siege'ing, more options better suited for different targets/ intentions
Cons; PVP in PVE really needs to be avoided, maybe cut that region from PVE use

Note - sieging needs to feel like the world is ending/ shit is hitting the fan. It currently doesn't matter (most SR mayors don't even realise it's happening until they are told). Make it less about who has the most money too and more about what regions they are using to combat your regions.


Overall SR's;

+cut the cost of creating offensive SR's to 0
+have it so each tier of SR gains the ability to create a certain offensive region for free: eg hamlet can create an outpost, village can create 2 outposts, city can create military base ect. (Siege cannon costs needs to be kept)
+town infrastructure needs to be more permanent and require regents (will link my other posts at the bottom of this)

Pros; would really increase the amount of sieges taking place, gives more purpose for upgrading SR tier to reach better infrastructure
Cons; might cause too many sieges (not sure if this is a con )

Defending;

+more regions that have the ability to reduce target SR power
+regions to cripple the SR output (reduce ammo dump output, increase upkeep cost, decrease power gained per cycle ect)
+new region that can disable a targeted region (not SR) for x amount if time (would require defenders to realise what's causing the most problems and choose to disable that quickly)
+ability to 'lock down' SR. (All player interaction is disabled, all regions stop producing items/ using regents) think of this as a way to focus the siege more to PVP. Lock down applies for x time.

Pros; more variety, more fun, more ways of defending!
Cons; honestly don't think there is any from these suggestions

Progress;

+more specific town infrastructure per tier (better radius hospital, better graveyards, better ports ect per tier)
+allow mayors to adjust money gained form housing regions, eg: rather than SR gaining 20 souls per cycle from a shack, can be changed to 15 souls gained per cycle and the selected member gains 5 souls. (Links in with team work)
+postal region; allows you to funnel/ automate specific regions with outputs into a 'post office', this region will then distribute the items input into the region evenly though a set number of 'post box's. (Links into team work, another way if giving back to SR members fairly).

Pros; really links into team work, gives the feeling if accomplishment.
Cons; seems solid from my point of view

Those links I promised earlier;

http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/townships-arena-of-sorts.56448/
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/townships.56355/

Looks good except for the amount of raiding towns that each town can have. This creates the same problem I see with treasure hunting: The rich/powerful get richer, the poor/noobier get poorer.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Looks good except for the amount of raiding towns that each town can have. This creates the same problem I see with treasure hunting: The rich/powerful get richer, the poor/noobier get poorer.

Well, my whole idea around letting people have such easy access to sieging is to give every SR a chance to raid (takes out the money factor by a lot). The only thing stopping them from raiding the best of the best is the amount of resources they can gather and if they can catch people off guard. Another point is that it would;

+make players more active as there's actually shit going down
+bring together players to form siege'ing parties/ bring SR members together more
+gives a purpose to invest in town defence more so
+takes money out the econ (TNT will shoot up in price for sure)
+more action! more attention! more players

But I do see what you mean by it having the chance of becoming too much.

 

[Watermelon_01]

+make players more active as there's actually shit going down

Remember, some people can't physically come on the server when this kind of stuff is going down. If this amount of action is to happen then the power decrease rate should remain the same, if not lower than it already is.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Remember, some people can't physically come on the server when this kind of stuff is going down. If this amount of action is to happen then the power decrease rate should remain the same, if not lower than it already is.

That's one of the whole points that needs to be addressed. Giving raiders a time frame in which they can raid encourages two things; to recruit players with different timezones & gives more in an incentive to organise a siege when the target SR isn't online. The rate in which the current siege regions lower the target SR is fine but I would personally like to see other regions/ routes that drain power.