Suggestion To kill a new player camper,

[Eldrylars]

@Kainzo @Admins @Balance Team

Seems to be as I haven't seen anyone else from then or before.

Not that it matters, A guy just came to my home and robbed me and killed me, I warped back he killed me again, three times. Then he some how found me at the graveyard and spawn camped me, killing me 16 more times. Tracking me some way no doubt. But yeah can't play so no point in trying so i'll be finding another server.

Everyone knows it happens, a lot.
There is no great way to avoid it with the systems we have right now, but with a little tweaking and a bit of coder time we may just be able to pull it off.

• Using the hours players we can dub a player a "New Player" "Youngling" or "Neophyte."
• The player will be considered in code a Neophyte until a decided amount of hours played(10, 15, 20..) or until they have mastered.

• Being a Neophyte does NOT give PvP protection.

• When a NON-Neophyte INITIATES COMBAT AND KILLS a Neophyte they will text warning message "You just killed a Neophyte, be careful it can be draining.(1)"

• The server then will hold a counter for the killer for each time they kill that particular Neophyte, for 24 hours. Every time they kill that same player it will add one more counter and refresh the timer.

• If the killer gathers 5 counters on the same Neophyte in a 24 hour period, they will lose 10% of their current levels experience.
• For every counter over 5 the experience loss will double 6=20%, 7=40%, 8=80%....

• If the Neophyte attacks first, the player will NOT take a counter and can both defend themselves and kill their attacker.

• Counters are NOT given if the killing player is in the region limits of their city.

This system should be relatively easy to setup and would still allow for the danger and thrill of the PvP experience while punishing players who are actively trying to hurt the server.

Herocraft is complicated and full of stuff to learn, and when a first time players or a long ago returning player comes back and is griefed so badly that they cannot even get a chance to try, it hurts us all.

• Also, instead of having the killers lose experience, we could reduce their stats by the same percentage 8=80% loss of HP/Mana/Stam until all counters expire, that would almost be better because then the player getting griefed might even be able to kill the griefer.

On the arguments against it I can see the possibility of a Neophyte being used as a shield against a higher level friend to try to grief players in extended PvP but this will most likely happen less then new players getting griefed and it would happen to more established players who can deal with it better then people who are still trying to figure out what a skill is.

 

[0xNaomi]

@Kainzo @Admins @Balance Team


Everyone knows it happens, a lot.
There is no great way to avoid it with the systems we have right now, but with a little tweaking and a bit of coder time we may just be able to pull it off.

• Using the hours players we can dub a player a "New Player" "Youngling" or "Neophyte."
• The player will be considered in code a Neophyte until a decided amount of hours played(10, 15, 20..) or until they have mastered.

• Being a Neophyte does NOT give PvP protection.

• When a NON-Neophyte INITIATES COMBAT AND KILLS a Neophyte they will text warning message "You just killed a Neophyte, be careful it can be draining.(1)"

• The server then will hold a counter for the killer for each time they kill that particular Neophyte, for 24 hours. Every time they kill that same player it will add one more counter and refresh the timer.

• If the killer gathers 5 counters on the same Neophyte in a 24 hour period, they will lose 10% of their current levels experience.
• For every counter over 5 the experience loss will double 6=20%, 7=40%, 8=80%....

• If the Neophyte attacks first, the player will NOT take a counter and can both defend themselves and kill their attacker.

• Counters are NOT given if the killing player is in the region limits of their city.

This system should be relatively easy to setup and would still allow for the danger and thrill of the PvP experience while punishing players who are actively trying to hurt the server.

Herocraft is complicated and full of stuff to learn, and when a first time players or a long ago returning player comes back and is griefed so badly that they cannot even get a chance to try, it hurts us all.

• Also, instead of having the killers lose experience, we could reduce their stats by the same percentage 8=80% loss of HP/Mana/Stam until all counters expire, that would almost be better because then the player getting griefed might even be able to kill the griefer.

On the arguments against it I can see the possibility of a Neophyte being used as a shield against a higher level friend to try to grief players in extended PvP but this will most likely happen less then new players getting griefed and it would happen to more established players who can deal with it better then people who are still trying to figure out what a skill is.

Sure, the logic for many individual parts is simple, but together?
Especially timing, only way to persist it through restarts (which seems to be the point with (24 hours) would be to actually store it somewhere. I don't see why you'd need/want to do that.
Plus, five kills is enough that you can kill all the noobs you want with no real consequences.

As for reducing health/stam/mana that's just crazy.

Also, if all this timer/mastery/attacks first/town logic exists, why not use it to protect the player in question rather than "punish" people? What does that even teach, "we don't want you doing this but we can't make you not do it"?

 

[has400]

This isn't related to your suggestion, however i just gotta say, its not like we force noobs to run out 16 times, they chose it by their selves, they can easily do /spawn and do a random tp and be on their way.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

I don't have a response directly to Eldry's post but would like to offer other considerations.

I've seen these suggestions:

• Stop medals of vengeance dropping from players under level 45
• Drop the ELO system - the preference is very much toward holding regular server-wide Tournys.

I'd also like to look toward cultural change - and incentives for it if possible.

By this I mean experienced players viewing themselves as recruiters for the server - the more people they bring in and train up, the more players they have to pvp against.

There are fair few players doing this atm, and it's great to see.

 

[Eldrylars]

Sure, the logic for many individual parts is simple, but together?
Especially timing, only way to persist it through restarts (which seems to be the point with (24 hours) would be to actually store it somewhere. I don't see why you'd need/want to do that.
Plus, five kills is enough that you can kill all the noobs you want with no real consequences.

As for reducing health/stam/mana that's just crazy.

Also, if all this timer/mastery/attacks first/town logic exists, why not use it to protect the player in question rather than "punish" people? What does that even teach, "we don't want you doing this but we can't make you not do it"?

We have done "new player protection" and it did not work.
Doing something like this would still allow new players to feel the reality of the PvP server and allow Players to still hunt new players, but would detour them from killing the new players more then 5 times a day.

In the above quoted situation, Pampita would have had to get two more of his buddies to be able to camp the new player for 15 kills instead of just ruining another players night by himself. It's much less likely that three vets would camp a brand new player then one.

As far as how much work it would take, honestly the amount of new players that get camped off the server may make it worth it.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

This isn't related to your suggestion, however i just gotta say, its not like we force noobs to run out 16 times, they chose it by their selves, they can easily do /spawn and do a random tp and be on their way.

In the stress and confusion of a new game and the threat of losing items and your life... well, new players just don't act like seasoned players, simple reality.

So we need a good way to communicate their options to new players, a way that works for them.

 

[Eldrylars]

This isn't related to your suggestion, however i just gotta say, its not like we force noobs to run out 16 times, they chose it by their selves, they can easily do /spawn and do a random tp and be on their way.

This is true, and some players have and will continue to use this method, but there are more malicious players who do continue to track and kill the player until they leave.

As an example, we saw FaZe kick a player off the server a few days ago, simply because the new player has "Faze" is his name. Faze would not allow the player to play and using track he would not let the player do anything.

 

[0xNaomi]

We have done "new player protection" and it did not work.
Doing something like this would still allow new players to feel the reality of the PvP server and allow Players to still hunt new players, but would detour them from killing the new players more then 5 times a day.

In the above quoted situation, Pampita would have had to get two more of his buddies to be able to camp the new player for 15 kills instead of just ruining another players night by himself. It's much less likely that three vets would camp a brand new player then one.

As far as how much work it would take, honestly the amount of new players that get camped off the server may make it worth it.

The first thing stated, "X hours or until mastery" is an unimplemented idea of improving protection that's never been tried.
"They'll be used to raid!" Good thing you yourself suggested to add towns into the mix. Give them protection unless in a town that's not theirs (or their ally, if nation).

If you're going to try and add improvements, try adding improvements before a mass overhaul. What kind of noob player would go "5 deaths is fine, SIX is where I draw the line!" If they've been killed 4-5 times, that's already enough to hurt, and the perpetrator can move on to someone else.

 

[0xNaomi]

Stop medals of vengeance dropping from players under level 45

"Suggestion"? It's been implemented on Test and everything I've heard pointed to it being intended to be put on live.
I've got no idea why it's not.

 

[Eldrylars]

The first thing stated, "X hours or until mastery" is an unimplemented idea of improving protection that's never been tried.
"They'll be used to raid!" Good thing you yourself suggested to add towns into the mix. Give them protection unless in a town that's not theirs (or their ally, if nation).

If you're going to try and add improvements, try adding improvements before a mass overhaul. What kind of noob player would go "5 deaths is fine, SIX is where I draw the line!" If they've been killed 4-5 times, that's already enough to hurt, and the perpetrator can move on to someone else.

True, 5 deaths is still enough to hurt, but it's not 16, or 20.... It creates an end point where the player can finally get a break and try to play without worry of being killed by the same person for the whole night.

Why 5? I honestly pulled the number out of air, but it felt the best as it will not stop players from having a few rounds of intense combat, but will prevent them from being camped for their whole playtime.

 

[0xNaomi]

True, 5 deaths is still enough to hurt, but it's not 16, or 20.... It creates an end point where the player can finally get a break and try to play without worry of being killed by the same person for the whole night.

Why 5? I honestly pulled the number out of air, but it felt the best as it will not stop players from having a few rounds of intense combat, but will prevent them from being camped for their whole playtime.

I just still fail to see the point. Losing EXP? Vets know how to level fast. Reduce stats? They still have far superior /skills and skill. If they WANT to kill someone 50 times, they will find a way unless it's impossible.

EDIT: Also, would vet players really not just blame said noob for the loss of stuff and hate them more? They clearly won't leave the game over such things ("This change will ruin everything" "Then find another server" "That's work, I don't want to" - True story) so their anger would likely go toward the noob.

 

[Eldrylars]

I wanted to say I like this convo here and enjoy going back and forth on the points with you

I just still fail to see the point. Losing EXP? Vets know how to level fast. Reduce stats? They still have far superior /skills and skill. If they WANT to kill someone 50 times, they will find a way unless it's impossible.

If stats were reduced by a percentile after a player killed the same neophyte 8 times, they would have lost 70% of their stats which means a maxed Ninja would have his HP reduced to 240 for 24 hours, and on the ninth kill, well lets just say the neophyte could kill the Ninja with a single punch with their fist.
As for using the initial suggestion of experience loss, it was suggested as a deterrent. At this time there is no deterrent to killing the same new player a hundred times, this would at least punish the griefer, and they would have to decide between losing an entire level of experience, or killing the naked level 10 noob for the 9th time. With the new leveling changes coming in, I am betting they will at least hesitate before throwing an entire level away killing a naked player.

EDIT: Also, would vet players really not just blame said noob for the loss of stuff and hate them more? They clearly won't leave the game over such things ("This change will ruin everything" "Then find another server" "That's work, I don't want to" - True story) so their anger would likely go toward the noob.

It's definitely possible, a lot of people put their own failures on other people because it's easier then putting it on themselves. Thing is we won't be able to change that, it's just going to happen. With this change it would still allow them to vent their rage on the new player 5 times a day, but after that, it would be at their own loss.
Honestly though, for those players that rage that they cannot spam kill the same new player over and over again may not be the player we want on the server?

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

EDIT: Also, would vet players really not just blame said noob for the loss of stuff and hate them more? They clearly won't leave the game over such things ("This change will ruin everything" "Then find another server" "That's work, I don't want to" - True story) so their anger would likely go toward the noob.

I'd say this applies to only a very small number of vet players, who are having a significant and negative effect on the server's ability to recruit and retain players.

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

This isn't related to your suggestion, however i just gotta say, its not like we force noobs to run out 16 times, they chose it by their selves, they can easily do /spawn and do a random tp and be on their way.

Can't stress this enough, there have been countless times where we've been sitting outside a town and some random guy just walks up to us, so we kill him and he just keeps running back. I think it's a good system on paper (excluding the stats thing) but like everything else implemented, someone is going to find a way to abuse it and it's going to create havoc

 

[0xNaomi]

If stats were reduced by a percentile after a player killed the same neophyte 8 times, they would have lost 70% of their stats which means a maxed Ninja would have his HP reduced to 240 for 24 hours, and on the ninth kill, well lets just say the neophyte could kill the Ninja with a single punch with their fist.
As for using the initial suggestion of experience loss, it was suggested as a deterrent. At this time there is no deterrent to killing the same new player a hundred times, this would at least punish the griefer, and they would have to decide between losing an entire level of experience, or killing the naked level 10 noob for the 9th time. With the new leveling changes coming in, I am betting they will at least hesitate before throwing an entire level away killing a naked player.

Before my actual response, I must say that the medal change needs to hit live. Even if it turns out horrible, I'd rather it work too well than not have it at the moment. Moving on...

The thing is, this just sounds like a mess. Even if it works. This might be some sort of logical fallacy, but think about it.
We need to, in persistent storage, track kills of one player onto another. I don't even want to think about that.
Additionally, the camped player won't know that the person is getting reduced stats from it. Yes, even if you put a message saying it, we all know it won't be read.
Also, if they can kill X times every 24h safely, and really want that person to die (see what was stated earlier) they will still do it every day.
The whole Effect system that is the most likely way to reduce a player's stats? Effects disappear on death or player leave, how do you intend to make something like that persistent?
This seems like a whole lotta overhead for something that'll still be abused.

(Online time counter doesn't count as "overhead" here, I'm assuming there's some way to interface with the onlinetime system that exists)

I still suggest a straight time protection with Town awareness before suggesting anything more complex. Even that in itself is complex enough it hasn't been tried yet, I hold many doubts something this huge would just happen.

It's definitely possible, a lot of people put their own failures on other people because it's easier then putting it on themselves. Thing is we won't be able to change that, it's just going to happen. With this change it would still allow them to vent their rage on the new player 5 times a day, but after that, it would be at their own loss.
Honestly though, for those players that rage that they cannot spam kill the same new player over and over again may not be the player we want on the server?

I'd say this applies to only a very small number of vet players, who are having a significant and negative effect on the server's ability to recruit and retain players.

Never said these were the players we want, but they are the players we have and they probably won't just up and leave. Since they're not breaking any rules, there's no grounds for ban, so... *shrug*

 

[Eldrylars]

Can't stress this enough, there have been countless times where we've been sitting outside a town and some random guy just walks up to us, so we kill him and he just keeps running back. I think it's a good system on paper (excluding the stats thing) but like everything else implemented, someone is going to find a way to abuse it and it's going to create havoc

In this situation, EACH player in your party could still kill the guy 5 times(Why you would I have no idea) before any of you would take a hit.

But let me say, there is nothing making you kill the player either. Why are you killing him the 15th time he has run up to you? Does he smell like elderberries? Does the shirt he is wearing offend you? Just as there is no reason for them to run up to you for the 15th time, there is no reason to kill the naked player the 15th time eh?

If they run up and attack you, it would not give you a point for killing them. If they ran up to you and started talking or dancing then all you would have to do is dance back! No need to slaughter them again as nothing is gained.

Unless I am missing something, please inform me so I can flush it out

 

[Eldrylars]

The thing is, this just sounds like a mess. Even if it works. This might be some sort of logical fallacy, but think about it.
We need to, in persistent storage, track kills of one player onto another. I don't even want to think about that.
Additionally, the camped player won't know that the person is getting reduced stats from it. Yes, even if you put a message saying it, we all know it won't be read.
(Online time counter doesn't count as "overhead" here, I'm assuming there's some way to interface with the onlinetime system that exists)

I can see where it would take a bit of work, and a bit of resources, most likely even some REAL dev time and thought, but I am pretty confident it could be done with a little elbow grease.
As for the camped player not knowing the other player is getting penalized is fine in my mind because the griefer will stop killing them, or perhaps the angered new player will come up and punch their attacker once and kill them and say WTH just happened?! Either way, if as a player you know killing this new player a 6th time will reduce all your stats 10%(or your exp) they will most likely not engage again and that the point of this.

Also, if they can kill X times every 24h safely, and really want that person to die (see what was stated earlier) they will still do it every day.
The whole Effect system that is the most likely way to reduce a player's stats? Effects disappear on death or player leave, how do you intend to make something like that persistent?
This seems like a whole lotta overhead for something that'll still be abused.

I am not sure on how much actual over head there will be, but definitely a lot of creative thought and design to make it work as simply and smoothly as possible. Being killed 5 times every 24 hours is still not a problem in my mind, at least not compared to being killed 24 times in 5 hours. I guess we just don't see eye to eye on the positive benefits of still having the chance of being killed without the chance of being camped.
As for your worries about the system being abused, did you think of something more then players trying to use their Neophyte friends as shields? If so please bring up what you think players would do to abuse the system and we can see if there is any way to negate the abuse.

I still suggest a straight time protection with Town awareness before suggesting anything more complex. Even that in itself is complex enough it hasn't been tried yet, I hold many doubts something this huge would just happen.

We have done this on Bastion. The system was a failure.
Players would take their PvP immune friends and use them as loot bots in big fights, absorption shields for enemy spells, arrows and left clicks, immune scouts and so on.

PvP immunity where others are not immune is problematic regardless, and super easy to exploit.

Never said these were the players we want, but they are the players we have and they probably won't just up and leave. Since they're not breaking any rules, there's no grounds for ban, so... *shrug*

I don't want to ban these players either, but if they are having to choose between being de-leveled or extremely weakened, they will limit themselves without staff intervention in the situations.
This gives players the choice and the ability to self govern their actions to keep camping the noob and lose X or move on to a different fight, a different noob or a different task.

 

[0xNaomi]

I can see where it would take a bit of work, and a bit of resources, most likely even some REAL dev time and thought, but I am pretty confident it could be done with a little elbow grease.
As for the camped player not knowing the other player is getting penalized is fine in my mind because the griefer will stop killing them, or perhaps the angered new player will come up and punch their attacker once and kill them and say WTH just happened?! Either way, if as a player you know killing this new player a 6th time will reduce all your stats 10%(or your exp) they will most likely not engage again and that the point of this.

Oh yes, let me just go toss out all that fake dev time I've been showing people. All we have to do is reimplement core features of the plugin to fit what you want, no big deal. Let's just store every instance of kills ever somewhere, and change the entire effect system to persist through death, logoff and reboot.
What about any class with range? What good will punching do when they can't punch the person because they have a Punch II bow and know the land more than their target? What good will it do when you can use ranged anything to still kill them with their barely-anything HP before they can touch you?

I am not sure on how much actual over head there will be, but definitely a lot of creative thought and design to make it work as simply and smoothly as possible. Being killed 5 times every 24 hours is still not a problem in my mind, at least not compared to being killed 24 times in 5 hours. I guess we just don't see eye to eye on the positive benefits of still having the chance of being killed without the chance of being camped.
As for your worries about the system being abused, did you think of something more then players trying to use their Neophyte friends as shields? If so please bring up what you think players would do to abuse the system and we can see if there is any way to negate the abuse.

The abuse is that people will still camp noobs. No matter what. Five times, then onto the next, putting a disincentive will not stop it. Five times is more than enough for people to not want to play any more. Going back to "what does this say" territory: Why is five deaths of camping okay and any more isn't? What does that say to a new player? "You're allowed to be fodder 5 times per day per person that wants to kill you." Oh yes, because that makes them feel so good that they'll *only* lose everything they have on them five times.

What about the fools who run to their death chest thirteen times? Should the experienced player be punished because the noob is a moron that doesn't realize how the system works at all? At that rate, just keep all items on death, then nobody will need to die at death chests /s

We have done this on Bastion. The system was a failure.
Players would take their PvP immune friends and use them as loot bots in big fights, absorption shields for enemy spells, arrows and left clicks, immune scouts and so on.

PvP immunity where others are not immune is problematic regardless, and super easy to exploit.

Then figure out ways around it like you seem to be trying to do here. The point of a timer based system is that it becomes far more difficult to exploit. Add in towns, and it's suddenly very limited in scope. I'm sure a creative mind could figure out other points at which it can be thought around to prevent further abuse.
I never said to use Bastion's system. Players under level X are immune until they hit that level? Yeah, that goes badly. Good thing that's not what was stated.

I don't want to ban these players either, but if they are having to choose between being de-leveled or extremely weakened, they will limit themselves without staff intervention in the situations.
This gives players the choice and the ability to self govern their actions to keep camping the noob and lose X or move on to a different fight, a different noob or a different task.

You said it yourself, "a different noob". All I see this doing is causing more problems. Since people who don't want to apparently revert to 0 stats stop at five kills and attack someone else, that just means even more of the incoming playerbase is being hit by them than before. Rather than one person being hit 15 times, three people are being hit 5, which increases the chances of more people leaving the server.

 

[Eldrylars]

I don't have time for a bit to go through all of this and take it in, but I did read this first line and want to clarify

Oh yes, let me just go toss out all that fake dev time I've been showing people. All we have to do is reimplement core features of the plugin to fit what you want, no big deal. Let's just store every instance of kills ever somewhere, and change the entire effect system to persist through death, logoff and reboot.

I was not implying anything to do with real or fake, and certainly not anything personal against yourself.
What my intentions with that statement were to use the work REAL to highlight that it's going to take a large amount of time.

I will catch up on the rest of what you wrote soon!

 

[Kainzo]

I don't have a response directly to Eldry's post but would like to offer other considerations.

I've seen these suggestions:

• Stop medals of vengeance dropping from players under level 45
• Drop the ELO system - the preference is very much toward holding regular server-wide Tournys.

I'd also like to look toward cultural change - and incentives for it if possible.

By this I mean experienced players viewing themselves as recruiters for the server - the more people they bring in and train up, the more players they have to pvp against.

There are fair few players doing this atm, and it's great to see.

Medals dont drop unless the player is above 45.... please test this again...