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The true definition of grief.

Joined
Feb 21, 2014
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0
#1
There seems to be a lack of certainty on what is actually considered griefing.

Many things are said by many people, but nothing truly exists in text. I want to make this thread so that there is some sort of consistency in the true definition of grief.

Griefing is I'm sure, the most common offense that admins have to deal with. I have witnessed them hand out bans for all sorts of grief.

How many blocks must be broken for this to be a bannable offense? Can people still break valuable blocks for theft? And what blocks would be considered valuable? These are some of the questions.

Then is it considered griefing if it is a dirt shack? Should the whole server be covered in small little starter huts, because no one is allowed to break them?

My personal opinion is that grief should be legal in unprotected regions. I realize that this is not how it is and I follow the rules, but many players get bans from not understanding the rules, or making small mistakes.

I feel that I can assume that many of the griefing bans happen to new players. New players quit when this happens. Why would they stay in a server that they got as one day ban on, their second day?

This is meant to be a resource with constructive suggestions. I by no means want to force my opinion on anyone, but I'd like to see what everyone feels about it.
 
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Likes
155
Location
Somewhere
#2
Griefing (to me) is considered the deliberate destruction of property. Anything more than 2 blocks (the amount of space needed to enter a building) should be bannable, because then it is more than necessary. If one does not replace the one or two blocks they broke it should be the one and only warning.

Any flooding or fire should also be bannable grief, unless it is contained within two blocks. In which case, again, it would be the one and only warning.

Valuable blocks can (to my knowledge) be taken from structures. The general rule is that a valuable block is any ore, or a block made from nine of the same material.

And just in response to the initial thread, banning should be illegal. Currently we have a lot of shacks, but which is worse: Shacks or broken down shacks?
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Tier 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Likes
358
#3
At one point in time we had a @Rules Council to help decide these kinds of things. Their current state seems to be inactive, but who knows.

Anyway, according to our lovely wiki:



Griefing
  • (Grief must be reported by the structure owner.)
  • (Griefing Rules do not apply in Chaos worlds)
  • Chaos Worlds = Nether
Griefing may be defined as:

  • Breaking into any regioned areas otherwise impossible to enter.
  • Emptying chest contents for the sole purpose of grief.
    • This includes dumping on the ground and or burning items en mass.
  • Destroying blocks in another player's structure.
    • Destroying blocks above chests in un-regioned areas is acceptable.
    • Destroying blocks in another player's structure is acceptable if the exact blocks are replaced.
  • Mindlessly destroying the landscape.
  • Placing blocks in or around a structure which you do not own.
  • Leaving abusive messages in any form.
  • Teleporting group members to your person and engaging in hostile actions against said group members after they purchased a teleport through trade chat.


The accuracy of this can be argued, but we do have a definition.
 
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Likes
155
Location
Somewhere
#4
At one point in time we had a @Rules Council to help decide these kinds of things. Their current state seems to be inactive, but who knows.

Anyway, according to our lovely wiki:



Griefing
  • (Grief must be reported by the structure owner.)
  • (Griefing Rules do not apply in Chaos worlds)
  • Chaos Worlds = Nether
Griefing may be defined as:

  • Breaking into any regioned areas otherwise impossible to enter.
  • Emptying chest contents for the sole purpose of grief.
    • This includes dumping on the ground and or burning items en mass.
  • Destroying blocks in another player's structure.
    • Destroying blocks above chests in un-regioned areas is acceptable.
    • Destroying blocks in another player's structure is acceptable if the exact blocks are replaced.
  • Mindlessly destroying the landscape.
  • Placing blocks in or around a structure which you do not own.
  • Leaving abusive messages in any form.
  • Teleporting group members to your person and engaging in hostile actions against said group members after they purchased a teleport through trade chat.


The accuracy of this can be argued, but we do have a definition.
I'll just comment on a few things in this. Not really my place, but oh well.

1. No use saying Chaos Worlds, just say nether.

2. I do think you should be able to break into areas otherwise impossible to enter. Sure you should replace the blocks, but odds are anything can be easily fixed. No use making a fuss.

3. The teleporting rule should not be in that section of the rules. It is a good rule, but it has nothing to do with griefing.

4. I do notice that it does not mention any case of stealing valuable blocks as being exempt from grief rules. This seems odd as I have heard it is on several occasions (including from staff members).
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Likes
9
Location
-n/a-
#5
I'll just comment on a few things in this. Not really my place, but oh well.

1. No use saying Chaos Worlds, just say nether.

2. I do think you should be able to break into areas otherwise impossible to enter. Sure you should replace the blocks, but odds are anything can be easily fixed. No use making a fuss.

3. The teleporting rule should not be in that section of the rules. It is a good rule, but it has nothing to do with griefing.

4. I do notice that it does not mention any case of stealing valuable blocks as being exempt from grief rules. This seems odd as I have heard it is on several occasions (including from staff members).
I do not agree with you on some points here, the one ill mention is this:
"2. I do think you should be able to break into areas otherwise impossible to enter. Sure you should replace the blocks, but odds are anything can be easily fixed. No use making a fuss."

Reason I disagree: a town is suppose to be a safe zone, where no one but town members can alter blocks. Now, lets say that I have a house in this town, the door is locked with LWC and the blocks cannot be broken, of course; my house should be impossible to enter without my permission.
Now, lets say you came by and decided "hey I want whatever he has in his chests! 'cause he doesn't seem to be using it, right?" and you try to get in but cant. You cannot get in without my permission unless you take advantage of glitches, bugs, or other abnormalities in the code that end up compromising the security of the building. Those bugs, glitches, and other abnormalities were NOT intended to be in the code; but just because they are there it does NOT give you a right to use them. Therefore if you are able to enter an otherwise un-impregnable building using the above mentioned methods (or any illegitimate methods not described), you should (will, since it is already a rule) be punished.
 
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Likes
155
Location
Somewhere
#6
I do not agree with you on some points here, the one ill mention is this:
"2. I do think you should be able to break into areas otherwise impossible to enter. Sure you should replace the blocks, but odds are anything can be easily fixed. No use making a fuss."

Reason I disagree: a town is suppose to be a safe zone, where no one but town members can alter blocks. Now, lets say that I have a house in this town, the door is locked with LWC and the blocks cannot be broken, of course; my house should be impossible to enter without my permission.
Now, lets say you came by and decided "hey I want whatever he has in his chests! 'cause he doesn't seem to be using it, right?" and you try to get in but cant. You cannot get in without my permission unless you take advantage of glitches, bugs, or other abnormalities in the code that end up compromising the security of the building. Those bugs, glitches, and other abnormalities were NOT intended to be in the code; but just because they are there it does NOT give you a right to use them. Therefore if you are able to enter an otherwise un-impregnable building using the above mentioned methods (or any illegitimate methods not described), you should (will, since it is already a rule) be punished.
I am sorry, but I believe I misread that part. I am 100% on board with any damage to towns being bannable. I did not see the "regioned" within the rule in my haste, and believed it referred to all structures which could not be entered.

I should have read more carefully before vocalizing my opinions, I apologize.
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Likes
9
Location
-n/a-
#7
I am sorry, but I believe I misread that part. I am 100% on board with any damage to towns being bannable. I did not see the "regioned" within the rule in my haste, and believed it referred to all structures which could not be entered.

I should have read more carefully before vocalizing my opinions, I apologize.
Ah, it is fine; in any other circumstance I'd agree, if the building was not regioned then there would be no problem if you broke in (but if it wasn't, then it would not be impossible to enter).
 

0xNaomi

Wiki Team
Coder
Balance Team
Tier 6
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Likes
120
#8
No use saying Chaos Worlds, just say nether.
"Chaos World" isn't a definition for Nether, it's that Nether is the only world consistently designated as a Chaos World.
Overflow is a Chaos World for sure, Warshard might be but not 100% sure there.
 
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Likes
66
Location
Ohio, United States of America
#9
There seems to be a lack of certainty on what is actually considered griefing.

Many things are said by many people, but nothing truly exists in text. I want to make this thread so that there is some sort of consistency in the true definition of grief.

Griefing is I'm sure, the most common offense that admins have to deal with. I have witnessed them hand out bans for all sorts of grief.

How many blocks must be broken for this to be a bannable offense? Can people still break valuable blocks for theft? And what blocks would be considered valuable? These are some of the questions.

Then is it considered griefing if it is a dirt shack? Should the whole server be covered in small little starter huts, because no one is allowed to break them?

My personal opinion is that grief should be legal in unprotected regions. I realize that this is not how it is and I follow the rules, but many players get bans from not understanding the rules, or making small mistakes.
I assume you are mainly bringing this up after your friend got banned for griefing the glowstone and town banners on our road, otherwise I don't think you would be bringing this up.

The way I see griefing is if you are doing something to make the HC world as a whole look messy then why would new players want to join a server that looks half destroyed (aka griefed) when, I'll use my town for example, we had a beautifully designed lit up road for all players on HC to use that took us days to build. Someone like your friend decides to come along and destroy our nice road. Now what do new players want to see, a nice road or a griefed road?

Just like there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, there is good and bad grief.
Bad grief = Destroying a player made structure that helps better the quality of thee server and are aesthetically pleasing.
Good grief = Destroying structures/blocks like dirt shacks or other things like that that may have once been a starting shelter for new players that just never destroyed it, or maybe even a building that now is abandoned and restoring the area to its natural state and not a half destroyed state.

Which brings me to your next point in your post.

I feel that I can assume that many of the griefing bans happen to new players. New players quit when this happens. Why would they stay in a server that they got as one day ban on, their second day?

This is meant to be a resource with constructive suggestions. I by no means want to force my opinion on anyone, but I'd like to see what everyone feels about it.
If new players are griefing, then please give me 1 good reason why we would want those types of players on our server and not getting banned?

Its not all about the player count on the server, its all about how many quality players are on the server that make a server good.
 

Aneriel

Glowing Redstone
Joined
May 25, 2015
Likes
5
#10
What a couple of you are failing to realize, by some of your statements, is that it is a big deal to someone. Someone, or multiple someones, have spent many hours/days/weeks planning and building these structures.

Having to figure out which materials are going to be needed, then find and load up on the correct materials and run these roads and inspect every structure that has been built (and believe me we have many, with many more to come) to make sure someone didn't decide to destroy part of it for no reason, is extremely time consuming. It is also frustrating after the second, third, fourth, etc time.

I have spent the past few weeks building. I have roughly 8 - 10 chests full of building materials and my 54 slot backpack and inventory are always completely full. When my town is going out to hunt, I have to seriously question if I really want to go or not due to the fact it takes me so long just to get every thing unloaded ...and then reloaded when I get back to building.

So please do not say, "Don't make a fuss" or that it "wouldn't be a problem". Just realize what people have put into this game. Not everyone likes to PVP. Not everyone likes to PVE. Some people like to build. And regioning is not the answer. The answer is simple; respect other peoples builds. In all honesty, why wouldn't you want to? As Guardian said, people who put these structures up are doing so to make the game play and the environment better for everyone.


Anyways, that's my 2 cents.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Tier 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Likes
358
#11
4. I do notice that it does not mention any case of stealing valuable blocks as being exempt from grief rules. This seems odd as I have heard it is on several occasions (including from staff members).
The following actions are permitted:
  • Destroying rare blocks outside of towns and Spawn.
    • Rare blocks consist of diamond and emerald.
Shortened to just include this rule. It's separate from the other section as to not cause confusion.
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Likes
18
Location
Austin, TX
#12
There seems to be a lack of certainty on what is actually considered griefing.

Many things are said by many people, but nothing truly exists in text. I want to make this thread so that there is some sort of consistency in the true definition of grief.

Griefing is I'm sure, the most common offense that admins have to deal with. I have witnessed them hand out bans for all sorts of grief.

How many blocks must be broken for this to be a bannable offense? Can people still break valuable blocks for theft? And what blocks would be considered valuable? These are some of the questions.

Then is it considered griefing if it is a dirt shack? Should the whole server be covered in small little starter huts, because no one is allowed to break them?

My personal opinion is that grief should be legal in unprotected regions. I realize that this is not how it is and I follow the rules, but many players get bans from not understanding the rules, or making small mistakes.

I feel that I can assume that many of the griefing bans happen to new players. New players quit when this happens. Why would they stay in a server that they got as one day ban on, their second day?

This is meant to be a resource with constructive suggestions. I by no means want to force my opinion on anyone, but I'd like to see what everyone feels about it.
As @LordZelkova has posted, the basic 'rulebook' for Herocraft is written down, @ hc.to/rules, I would recommend that you and any new players you play with should read it.
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
Likes
0
#13
I assume you are mainly bringing this up after your friend got banned for griefing the glowstone and town banners on our road, otherwise I don't think you would be bringing this up.

The way I see griefing is if you are doing something to make the HC world as a whole look messy then why would new players want to join a server that looks half destroyed (aka griefed) when, I'll use my town for example, we had a beautifully designed lit up road for all players on HC to use that took us days to build. Someone like your friend decides to come along and destroy our nice road. Now what do new players want to see, a nice road or a griefed road?

Just like there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, there is good and bad grief.
Bad grief = Destroying a player made structure that helps better the quality of thee server and are aesthetically pleasing.
Good grief = Destroying structures/blocks like dirt shacks or other things like that that may have once been a starting shelter for new players that just never destroyed it, or maybe even a building that now is abandoned and restoring the area to its natural state and not a half destroyed state.

Which brings me to your next point in your post.



If new players are griefing, then please give me 1 good reason why we would want those types of players on our server and not getting banned?

Its not all about the player count on the server, its all about how many quality players are on the server that make a server good.
This post did come because of my town member, but I am by no means defending him. The reason I am bringing it up, is that there was very little explained on the ban. They are always just labeled "griefing". I had thought myself that glowstone was considered a valuable block. Though he should not have taken your flags either. I would not have taken the glowstone myself, out of respect for your structure. There were just questions that were raised because of this.

And back to the thing about new members, I am not saying to let them be belligerent, but a warning might go a long way for some. It would have to be based on each situation, but ignorance seems to be a common thing here.

The way that you get started on this server doesn't really push the rules in your face. It can be hard for new players to learn it all so quickly. I'm not saying my idea is perfect. Just brainstorming
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Likes
18
Location
Austin, TX
#14
This post did come because of my town member, but I am by no means defending him. The reason I am bringing it up, is that there was very little explained on the ban. They are always just labeled "griefing". I had thought myself that glowstone was considered a valuable block. Though he should not have taken your flags either. I would not have taken the glowstone myself, out of respect for your structure. There were just questions that were raised because of this.

And back to the thing about new members, I am not saying to let them be belligerent, but a warning might go a long way for some. It would have to be based on each situation, but ignorance seems to be a common thing here.

The way that you get started on this server doesn't really push the rules in your face. It can be hard for new players to learn it all so quickly. I'm not saying my idea is perfect. Just brainstorming
Your friend wasn't permanently banned, so a temp ban in of itself serves as a warning. If a player has a question about why they were banned they can post a ban appeal and in almost all cases the admin who banned the player in question will explain what they did wrong. Usually new players who get banned for griefing get their ban lifted after they make an appeal.

Ignorance of the rules doesn't give someone protection from being punished though.
 
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Likes
62
Location
Spokane, WA
#15
The @Rules Council is still active, and the griefing rules are as already posted.

The most simple rule is: if you break it, replace it, unless it is in the Nether, a crop (no longer needs replanting), or the current rare blocks.

We will take a look at your suggestions with our next review of the rules. Thank you for your input. :)

-yav
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Likes
0
#16
This post did come because of my town member, but I am by no means defending him. The reason I am bringing it up, is that there was very little explained on the ban. They are always just labeled "griefing". I had thought myself that glowstone was considered a valuable block. Though he should not have taken your flags either. I would not have taken the glowstone myself, out of respect for your structure. There were just questions that were raised because of this.

And back to the thing about new members, I am not saying to let them be belligerent, but a warning might go a long way for some. It would have to be based on each situation, but ignorance seems to be a common thing here.

The way that you get started on this server doesn't really push the rules in your face. It can be hard for new players to learn it all so quickly. I'm not saying my idea is perfect. Just brainstorming
The thing is, there is no explanation needed, nor warranted. If they don't respect a server enough to read the rules, when it's a sign in the starting area to go read the rules, then they shouldn't play on that server. Banned for griefing? If you read the rules, you'd know exactly what griefing entails and what you did.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Likes
7
#17
At one point in time we had a @Rules Council to help decide these kinds of things. Their current state seems to be inactive, but who knows.

Anyway, according to our lovely wiki:



Griefing
Griefing may be defined as:
  • Emptying chest contents for the sole purpose of grief.
I love when epic_samuri and I get a rule added :)
 
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