The nature of alignments on Herocraft

[weynard]

In light of recent events as the cause, I would like to start a discussion on what exactly is GOOD, NEUTRAL and EVIL and what would be desirable about each of them, without any set order. Here are my personal definition of the three main alignments:

A good player would help anyone who knocked at their doors, asking for food or shelter.
A truly "good" person would also not distinguish between alignment in helping others.
This does not mean to be naive- but how can you claim to be a saint and still turn down or even kill a mortally wounded enemy? If that enemy is however trying to hurt someone in his last seconds, it would be fair to defend yourself and others.
Good players would not fight unless it becomes inevitable. They do not depart on "crusades" against proclaimed outlaws or the like.
They are honest, altruistic, kind, honourable and, above all, people of integrity.

Neutral players abandon all diplomatic relations. They take great care not to give an advantage towards others in order to maintain their neutrality and on the other hand are also more likely to isolate themselves from important questions and giving out statements.
This is probably the most difficult of the alignments to uphold for town leaders.
They strive to keep out of political debates and to make conditions equal to everyone- I'd also say this is the most common alignment for traders- as long as they don't haggle.
A neutral person would not join a fight and only defend himself, not others. Being truly neutral requires the player to go to great lenghts to uphold their discipline, self-control and countenance, as well as logical thinking and reasoning.

Evil players are the egomaniacs. They despise mostly everyone except themselves and would go to any degree to reach their goals, as long as it stays within the rules.
They often show their intelligence to the outside, be it high or not, however not until they have outwitted their victim.
While they are reckless in what they do, they are inconsistent in their behaviour in that they feel the urge to give the seeming of a mastermind, a "chosen one" or, for the lack of a better expression, the "deadly cool guy" or to exalt themselves in another way, which sometimes hinders the easiest solutions to their problems.
They strive to achieve perfection, tomake everyone know they are superior.
They abandon compassion for greed, generousity for gain and honesty for their own entertainment. Evil players tend to betray others and fool the weak.
When they do work together, it is a community of people immovably fixed on a common goal, or one that allows members to show each others their self-perceived greatness.
An evil person is sly, focused, strong-willed and cold.

In conclusion, I think it could be said that nobody fills the definition of an alignment and as a result, no town or guild could.

 

[dmil23]

I think the Tree Creepers are evil assholes.

 

[c12095]

I think the Tree Creepers are evil assholes.

I second this! Those bastards need to be killed. Somewhere away from a no pvp zone, danm cowards only feel strong when you got a no pvp to run into lol. Also Bearcat thanks alot for the new wall on the North road <3.

 

[Dielan9999]

Well for the sake of staying on topic. My town chooses not to have an allignment. Many will perceive us as good, and some will perceive us as evil. With perspectives in mind it's hard to keep alignments. Everyone just kinda does their own thing, and some people will agree and support, while the others will ridicule and criticize.

EDIT: I do believe however, that if your town likes to roleplay, you can accomplish your allignment.

 

[WeeWoo1337]

I think the Tree Creepers are evil assholes.

totally agree!

 

[HollowSith]

I second this! Those bastards need to be killed. Somewhere away from a no pvp zone, danm cowards only feel strong when you got a no pvp to run into lol. Also Bearcat thanks alot for the new wall on the North road <3.

Chyeah! <3 Agree!

 

[Aerokii]

I'm very interested in discussing the good alignment with you actually. You present an interesting argument about "True Good", one that turns no one away, does not crusade against evil. I honestly like it since, for the most part, that's what I strive for as a Paladin- something I take very seriously.

However, I do think there are "non-inevitable" instances when a truly good person should fight. In defense of another, such as an ally or someone who can't defend themselves like a low-level or crafter. If they can diffuse situations like this without killing, even better- I've done so with Tigo and Pipicik in the past, but if there's no time for words, you just need to jump in and do what needs doing. Be the shield for those who have none.

 

[Zihara]

I disagree with mostly everything, in my humble opinion.

I think you're confusing people's personalities with their habits. Also, It's hard to categorize someone (or a group of people), into one of those three categories. Good and Evil are on a continuum. There are shades of grey between them.

Let's start with Evil.

Evil players are the egomaniacs.

No. Wrong. You're generalizing.

They abandon compassion for greed, generousity for gain and honesty for their own entertainment. Evil players tend to betray others and fool the weak.

I would consider myself on a part of the continuum tending towards Evil for the reasons I will later state, but in no way am I an egomaniac. I don't consider myself above anyone else, nor do I only care about myself and my own needs. I gladly help out my friends/town-members if they need assistance and I treat people fairly depending on how they act and treat others. Also, from what I've experienced from other "Evil" players, we're nearly all the same. You can't assume that all "Evil" people are egomaniacs. It's not correct. "Evil" people tend to stick together and help each other out, which disproves your statement that we "betray" people and aren't "honest".

They strive to achieve perfection, tomake everyone know they are superior.

That's just ridiculous. Everyone strives for perfection regardless of your orientation between Good/Evil. And there are some people that do it to feel superior, but you can find them in all walks of life. Also, they can't "make everyone know" they're "perfect" because perfection is unobtainable.

When they do work together, it is a community of people immovably fixed on a common goal, or one that allows members to show each others their self-perceived greatness.

Yes, when people of like-mind get together (again, regardless of Good/Evil orientation), they tend to have a common goal. Obviously. They have similar interests. And no, the greatness wouldn't be self-perceived. In my opinion, if someone accomplishes one of their goals, I myself think that's pretty great and congratulate them on the work they've done. Don't tell me you've never bragged about something?

They often show their intelligence to the outside, be it high or not, however not until they have outwitted their victim.

Again, you're generalizing a whole group of people into one set personality. (You're not trying to target any set one, are you?) And also, I'd like to see your proof to back up all these claims. In no way have I seen anyone of "Evil" orientation try to outwit their so-called "victim". What would be the point in "hiding" your true intelligence?

An evil person is sly, focused, strong-willed and cold.

Hm, being focused isn't an "Evil" or negative trait, last time I checked. Neither is being strong-willed. And as for being cold? Everyone can be cold. Again, regardless of Good/Evil orientation. (Starting to feel like a broken record here...)

While they are reckless in what they do, they are inconsistent in their behaviour in that they feel the urge to give the seeming of a mastermind, a "chosen one" or, for the lack of a better expression, the "deadly cool guy" or to exalt themselves in another way, which sometimes hinders the easiest solutions to their problems.

Again. You're generalizing us all. Broken record. Everyone acts like this regardless of how they orientate themselves.

In my opinion, if you take out all your over-generalizing and your tendency to relate personalities that affect everyone to you're argument as to who is Evil (and, for that matter, those who are "Good" and "Neutral") you're argument is completely void at least in the Evil aspect.

My brief opinion on the aspects of Good/Neutral/Evil. (With personalities out of the picture, as it should be).

Evil:

• Enjoys PvP-ing. (Groups and Solo) Probably even search out an opponent (regardless if the opponent is armed).
• Enjoys raiding. (Groups and Solo) Stealing from towns/wilderness houses.
• Won't form alliances with other Townships.
• Treats everyone the same regardless of Level, Age, Newness to the server, etc.

Neutral:

• Just as it's titled.
• Neutral in politics. (Doesn't pick sides ; No alliances/enemies)
• Neutral in battle. (Never chooses a side)
• Opinions shouldn't generally be voiced. (Again, picking sides)

Good:

• Doesn't enjoy PvP (Senseless killing)
• Would never kill another unless aggravated down to the last straw (All other options had been exhausted)
• Doesn't raid or steal from others. ("Crusades")
• Always Polite/Respectful. (Chat AND Forums)

I don't think there's a need for me to post anything else, unless any new material of worth should arise.

 

[Tigo123]

You just got owned, weynard

 

[dmil23]

I disagree with mostly everything, in my humble opinion.

I think you're confusing people's personalities with their habits. Also, It's hard to categorize someone (or a group of people), into one of those three categories. Good and Evil are on a continuum. There are shades of grey between them.

Let's start with Evil.

No. Wrong. You're generalizing.

I would consider myself on a part of the continuum tending towards Evil for the reasons I will later state, but in no way am I an egomaniac. I don't consider myself above anyone else, nor do I only care about myself and my own needs. I gladly help out my friends/town-members if they need assistance and I treat people fairly depending on how they act and treat others. Also, from what I've experienced from other "Evil" players, we're nearly all the same. You can't assume that all "Evil" people are egomaniacs. It's not correct. "Evil" people tend to stick together and help each other out, which disproves your statement that we "betray" people and aren't "honest".

That's just ridiculous. Everyone strives for perfection regardless of your orientation between Good/Evil. And there are some people that do it to feel superior, but you can find them in all walks of life. Also, they can't "make everyone know" they're "perfect" because perfection is unobtainable.

Yes, when people of like-mind get together (again, regardless of Good/Evil orientation), they tend to have a common goal. Obviously. They have similar interests. And no, the greatness wouldn't be self-perceived. In my opinion, if someone accomplishes one of their goals, I myself think that's pretty great and congratulate them on the work they've done. Don't tell me you've never bragged about something?

Again, you're generalizing a whole group of people into one set personality. (You're not trying to target any set one, are you?) And also, I'd like to see your proof to back up all these claims. In no way have I seen anyone of "Evil" orientation try to outwit their so-called "victim". What would be the point in "hiding" your true intelligence?

Hm, being focused isn't an "Evil" or negative trait, last time I checked. Neither is being strong-willed. And as for being cold? Everyone can be cold. Again, regardless of Good/Evil orientation. (Starting to feel like a broken record here...)

Again. You're generalizing us all. Broken record. Everyone acts like this regardless of how they orientate themselves.

If you take out all your over-generalizing and your tendency to relate personalities that affect everyone to you're argument as to who is Evil (and, for that matter, those who are "Good" and "Neutral") you're argument is completely void at least in the Evil aspect.

My brief opinion on the aspects of Good/Neutral/Evil. (With personalities out of the picture, as it should be).

Evil:

• Enjoys PvP-ing. (Groups and Solo) Probably even search out an opponent (regardless if the opponent is armed).
• Enjoys raiding. (Groups and Solo) Stealing from towns/wilderness houses.
• Won't form alliances with other Townships.
• Treats everyone the same regardless of Level, Age, Newness to the server, etc.

Neutral:

• Just as it's titled.
• Neutral in politics. (Doesn't pick sides ; No alliances/enemies)
• Neutral in battle. (Never chooses a side)
• Opinions shouldn't generally be voiced. (Again, picking sides)

Good:

• Doesn't enjoy PvP (Senseless killing)
• Would never kill another unless aggravated down to the last straw (All other options had been exhausted)
• Doesn't raid or steal from others. ("Crusades")
• Always Polite/Respectful. (Chat AND Forums)

I don't think there's a need for me to post anything else, unless any new material of worth should arise.

In my words, weynard just got his shit wrecked.

 

[malmenca]

In my words, Weynard just got spanked hard then followed up by being blue balled

 

[Dielan9999]

@Zihara While I do agree with almost everything you said. I have to disagree with the neutral part:

Neutral:

• Just as it's titled.
• Neutral in politics. (Doesn't pick sides ; No alliances/enemies)
• Neutral in battle. (Never chooses a side)
• Opinions shouldn't generally be voiced. (Again, picking sides)

It seems to me you view neutral as the center point of the spectrum. Where the rest of the gray areas on its way to the good end or the evil end are all associated whichever side of the center point it is on.

Here's what I think you are describing with a picture:

I disagree with this. I think that if you and whichever group you associate with should work hard to be considered either a good or evil alignment. Because in your context, OS (my kingdom, the one with a shitton of towns) would be considered evil. When most of use would want to be neutral, and some would even consider us to be good. Like the things I bolded and enlarged in my quote of you, I think neutral towns should have absolute freedom to pick sides! Weather they be good or evil based on common interests. Call it, an opportunists alignment if it makes you more comfortable. For, your definitions of neutral alignment aren't appealing and nobody would go for that. However not all of us are all good or all evil(even on a spectrum).

It's the freedom to choose what benefits you the most, that makes neutral so appealing.

Also, what I mean by how I see your views, it's like playing the PS3 game inFamous, its really easy to be evil, but you got to work your ass off to be good, but if you go lazy about it, you are stuck towards neutral, and in that game there is no benefit to being neutral. In Herocraft it is similar, how you SHOULD work to get your rep, but staying neutral should be a significant standpoint, because there are benefits!

Just because I let Diffuse occasionally go on a killing spree when he's spec'd as a samurai and not a crafter doesn't mean Shin Kyoto should be labeled as evil. Even if it's considered a minor evil. Neutrality gives us the option to do whatever benefits us the most. So that's what we will do, regardless of how other will view us. This is why back in the day many towns were labeled as "neutral", because it's the opportunists' alignment!

EDIT:

tl;dr

Neutral towns aren't towns that just do nothing. They are opportunists who will side with who they please. At least that's how it should be!

 

[Aerokii]

I dunno. You make a lot of good points when it comes to evil, but at the same time I'm starting to feel that just using three different methods of determining alignment isn't enough. Things like "Treats everyone the same" is a quality that, logically, would fall into neutral because they don't pick sides, and good because they will be respectful. What we really need is the lawful/neutral/chaotic vs good/neutral/evil style from dungeons and dragons.

I mean, the way you have it set up can be summed up as "Evil: loves pvp and theft, Neutral: doesn't do shit, Good: Generally nice." and that's just too simplified in my opinion. I know there are people that qualify as chaotic neutral, who might steal from anyone they can but are also willing to help out altruistically at other times. Or Lawful Evil, whom... I'm not sure if this is a good example, but Oryinn has struck me as this type. Respectful and has kept to his word regarding promises in the past, but not someone I'd immediately label as a "good guy" in the alignment sense.

If we really want to personalize I suggest we switch out lawful/neutral/chaotic to taken-advantage-of/do-what-they-want/insufferable-douchebags. That way we're not just copying D&D and somehow I'd love to see these titles implemented for township, haha.

 

[malmenca]

@Dielan9999 u make a good point but I slightly modified the picture

Hastily drawn is overlapping green and red where neutral would be!

 

[Dielan9999]

@Dielan9999 u make a good point but I slightly modified the picture

Hastily drawn is overlapping green and red where neutral would be!

Nice to see someone with great paint skills like me!

Anyways, I think things should be more like this:

That's what I was getting at.

 

[Zihara]

@Dielan9999

Yeah, in my brief summary of the "Neutral" side, it was stated as if it was absolute Neutral, with no leeway to diverge to either side. Yes I know it's a continuum as I had stated earlier; So your most recent picture:

Anyways, I think things should be more like this:

That's what I was getting at.

is great example of the continuum I was talking about. Your Paint skills are something to be praised.
With neutral being what it is, it's one of the harder one's to define. I defined it as absolute, as if there were no divergence to either side of the continuum. I know that no one can be 100% Neutral, and that we all tend to one end or the other.

@Aerokii

I mean, the way you have it set up can be summed up as "Evil: loves pvp and theft, Neutral: doesn't do shit, Good: Generally nice." and that's just too simplified in my opinion.

Hrrmm, well the point of simplifying it was to remove all the Personality stereotypes and generalization. When you remove all of that from Weynards argument, those are the basics you're left with. Again, it's a continuum! meaning that it can diverge off the set points I had made (see above Dielan Pic =) )

If we really want to personalize I suggest we switch out lawful/neutral/chaotic to taken-advantage-of/do-what-they-want/insufferable-douchebags.

Hrmm. Insufferable Douchebags? That sounds like you're just generalizing all us Evil players into one sucky title based off the personality of a few. But it did make me chuckle.

 

[TicklesTheMighty]

The alignments are so vague at the moment, they can't really be considered to mean anything on their own. And it's also possible for a town's alignment to shift, possibly in an extreme manner. That being said I think we could afford to have a more D&Desque type of alignment chart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

 

[Dazureus]

The labels seem limiting. A town could be very hot-and-cold, friendly to everyone until a stray raider takes a stack of iron or whatnot, and then launching sneaky or ruthless attacks against the raider's town. They could be labeled either good or evil, or to those who think that the actions cancel each other out, neutral. Didn't Kainzo say that alignment isn't that important anymore? I say, if you're intent on being perceived as one way or another, you should portray yourself (and/or your town) that way.

(So, in context of this thread, weynard is Lawful Neutral, Aerokii Lawful Good, Dielan "active role/preserve the balance" True Neutral, and the TCs Neutral/Chaotic stupid Evil. I'd call myself Chaotic Neutral for wanting to abandon the System.)

 

[Aerokii]

@Aerokii

Hrrmm, well the point of simplifying it was to remove all the Personality stereotypes and generalization. When you remove all of that from Weynards argument, those are the basics you're left with. Again, it's a continuum! meaning that it can diverge off the set points I had made (see above Dielan Pic =) )

Hrmm. Insufferable Douchebags? That sounds like you're just generalizing all us Evil players into one sucky title based off the personality of a few. But it did make me chuckle.

Haha, fair points, all of the above! Sorry, I'm an engineering student, I see a system and want to complicate the hell out of it/define it to the best of my ability. I'll agree with its ability to diverge, and would be happy to discuss said divergences and how we can classify those!

And I tried being equally unfair to everyone, as the "lawful" are those who are easily taken advantage of/tricked (I've solved situations non-violently before only to be backstabbed for my trust), do what they want is more or less just evil without being a total dick (Kainzo himself has said that neutral might as well be evil as far as towns go), and "insufferable douchebag" is a combination of things- namely my love for a certain webcomic, my loathing for certain "evil" players, and the incessant trolling some are capable of, though it was referencing "Chaotic"

Hell, if I could further specify, i wouldn't even say "insufferable douchebag" refers necessarily to evil, since I'd say "do what they want" fits better. Insufferable douchebag is its own unique alignment within herocraft, haha. I'm friends with a few evil players on the server despite my attempts to be known as a somewhat fixed-point of good alignment. I guess if we want to simplify, the system could be labelled as "well meaning idiots/assholes/total assholes"

edit: That middle "assholes" is meant in an endearing way, haha.

 

[Kophka]

One thing I've noticed is that the "Good" people are perfectly content to kill anyone, for absolutely no reason at all. Infact, with the exception of the Tree Creepers, they probably jump people more than the "Evil" people do. If someone calls them out on it, they reference a list of "reasons we killed you" which boils down to "I don't know you, so you are fair game" Sounds pretty evil to me.

Me, I'm Evil. That doesn't mean I wander around randoming people anytime I want, I'm actually a genuinely friendly guy. But I have absolutely no qualms about laying waste to anything around me when the mood strikes me, and the only thing that may deter me is that the target is stronger than me... for now. I may be more of chaotic neutral than anything, but my motives are gain for myself, so I dunno.