Special Protection for public projects

[eisbaerBorealis]

This may not be "hardcore" enough for Herocraft, but there are a couple players/locations who I believe stand out on the server and deserve some special treatment. First on the list would be Granny Gwawr's Gingerbread House. She grows mushrooms for people to make soup out of - at no profit for herself. She recently had all of her mushrooms stolen from her (all 1200, I hear) and there is neither a way to have them returned to her and more importantly, no way to protect her against future actions. She's also got a couple spawners in the area for training, and it's just a really nice place to go and have fun.

Another example might be Airbus' shop, but the Chestshops protect the goods, and he seems to be able to take care of himself. I don't mean his shop isn't a great public project, just that the "special protection" of which I speak should be very, very rare. At the moment, only for Granny and for future, similar purposes (like the Olympics).
stupid walls of text...

Okay, a quick definition of a "public project" (in my opinion, please add your thoughts)

• A voluntary no-PvP zone
• Provides free items for anyone in need

By definition of the server, free items (in an unlocked chest, or just sitting around) can be stolen and if the thief is sneaky enough, no one will ever know who did it.

This is what I propose happens to public projects, with the first item being most important, and that later ones being desired, but less important.
(POLL OPTIONS HERE)

1. Access to the logs (through an admin/mod) to find out the perpetrator. This way, we can take matters into our own hands and therefore deter such future actions.
2. Items returned to owner of public project (or even just half) by admin/mod - not even necessarily taken from the thief.
3. An unwritten rule and official warning from admin/mod. "We can't punish you, but it was a public project, and you should really return the items and not do it again."
4. Official rule. Bannable after fair warning and 2nd offense of the exact same public project (not really serious about this one...)

In closing, I know that we're a "hardcore" server, but anyone with a heart sees a public project and wants everyone to respect that project (like an open chest near spawn with stone tools/torches/etc). But we can't keep heartless people from the server (haha... add it to the whitelist application? "Do you have a heart?") But maybe we're just too hardcore for public projects. Personally, I thought we were a community first and a server second. But are we too hardcore to have one or two nice things?

 

[FFLaguna]

How about a simpler rule change? Don't grief growables that don't belong to you. I find it kind of silly that farms aren't protected if they're outside of towns. It's the only rule I think I have a problem with on the entire server, out of the entire ruleset.

Change the ruleset for growables. Mushrooms, wheat, trees. Perhaps trees inside obvious player-constructed tree farms and wheat inside farms MUST be replanted using seeds/saplings harvested from chopping down. I don't mind coming home to an ungrown garden that other people have used, so long as they've at least replaced what they've taken. Somebody else with experience with mushrooms can come up with a suggested ruleset for those.

These projects don't need extra protections. Instead, growables need extra protection. You can't grief constructed homes in the wilderness, so why should somebody be able to grief a farm that I put a lot of work into designing? I don't know how it could be anything other than straight-up griefing. It's not about being hardcore.

Thanks for any comments in advance.

 

[Kainzo]

Hire guards

 

[R3xz]

If only there's such thing as somebody that want to sit around all day waiting for a perpetrator. ;D

 

[Punisher79]

Yeah, Id agree with Kain on this one.

This server IS hardcore. "Public" goodwill projects of this kind should be located inside an established town and under the protection net it provides.

If you like to build projects too large to be contained inside city walls, perhaps the new non-PVP map Kainzo had planned would be more to your liking.

Should relocating these special places of interest still not be feasible, then hire mercs/ enlist volunteers to help protect against gutter runners.

This map has truely been a dog-eat-dog server... to allow someone special protections kinda undermines everything that every other town (and her citizens) has died and shed blood for. You need to earn your spot on this map.

 

[FFLaguna]

All I want is protection for man-made farm constructions, such as mandatory replanting of wheat and wood that comes out of man-made farms.

It's in-line with rules regarding replacing blocks that you grief. I don't think this takes away from any of the spirit of the hardcoreness provided on this server. It's an anti-grief rule that is sorely lacking.

 

[Gwawr]

Thanks to the OP for thinking about me and making the suggestion.

I agree with the general feel of the server with regards to PvP. However, hiring guards to sit around and watch shrooms grow has got to be right up there with the excitement of breaking obsidian with a stone pick. Servers are 24/7, but people are not and we all know that the hour you fall asleep at the keyboard is precisely the hour that the griefers show up.

And it is griefing. I'm not talking about somebody taking a few shrooms in order to make soup for pvp. I'm talking about somebody clearing every last shroom out of 20 floors of alternating shrooms with a total potential shroom count of 1200. It's likely the same people who are taking the bottom block out of trees and leaving them floating (which is just tremendously stupid and unnecessary). I can't imagine that the server really wants to support those people (though I could be wrong). Isn't that why we have the block replacement rule and why doesn't it include farmables?

Of course, if those people should be supported, then I'm back to my initial view of the situation. Why bother to make public projects when people are rewarded for tearing them down? It just doesn't make sense to even have them in that sort of environment.

Oh, and @Punisher79, I never complained about any of this. I simply stated that I wasn't going to rebuild something that people were rewarded for tearing down. Since it's almost impossible to sit and watch shrooms 24/7, rebuilding just encourages more griefing behavior. I have learned my lesson.

 

[mcempires]

I support the idea by eisbaer, I also feel kinda bad for granny . And i would come and plant some of my shrooms to your farm. But I dont have the guts to leave the town rings becouse ill get killed by the first player that sees me .

But what if you gwawr would trie to make a secure shroom farm that could only be harvested with a waterflow.
(I got the plans in my head but they are too complicated and time consuming for me to write down here, so you figure it out )

 

[Gwawr]

The overall problem isn't that the shrooms are gone. It's that there's no way to stop the guy doing it other than days of sitting and watching shrooms grow. And he took everything that Howdan planted yesterday. 1200 mushrooms isn't your basic guy grabbing some and running off - it's organized. I noticed because he took the ones in the single block nooks that normally people leave as they're a pain to harvest.

I agree that an easy shroom delivery system using waterflow would be a good improvement over the 20 floors with a ladder going down. It still wouldn't stop somebody from going in and taking all the shrooms that power the delivery system though.

 

[Punisher79]

Put it in a region. Case closed.

 

[FFLaguna]

Put it in a region. Case closed.

What if somebody was digging holes in the side of your building to get inside, and not repairing them? Would you like me to tell you "Put it in a region. That's all you can do." ? No, this is why we have petitions and rules against griefing physical structures that somebody took the time to construct. Why not farms?

Do you feel the server is less hardcore with the "don't grief farms" rule? Well, then how do you feel about the current "don't grief player buildings" rule? Does that harm the hardcoreness of the server, too?

 

[Doreagarde]

What if somebody was digging holes in the side of your building to get inside, and not repairing them? Would you like me to tell you "Put it in a region. That's all you can do." ? No, this is why we have petitions and rules against griefing physical structures that somebody took the time to construct. Why not farms?

Do you feel the server is less hardcore with the "don't grief farms" rule? Well, then how do you feel about the current "don't grief player buildings" rule? Does that harm the hardcoreness of the server, too?

Perhaps you would do well to begin a campaign asking for farms to be treated with the same griefing rules as other buildings.

 

[Gwawr]

I think that's why this post is in suggestions? Or am I missing something...

 

[Doreagarde]

Well, not all public projects need be farms, nor are all farms public projects. Campaigning for protection of one of these would have a different approach than the other.

In case of public projects, one would, much as you're doing now, ask that a person be able to "apply" to build a public project, recognized and sanctioned by the administration and protected by special laws. (As an aside, I think that this would be an excellent reformation in server rules.) Campaigning for farm protection would be asking that any area organized by a player to create an uninterrupted supply of renewable "plant" blocks be granted the same protection as other structures. This is only loosely related to the topic at hand ("public projects" in general), and if anyone wants to pursue a farm protection campaign, (perhaps yourself, @FFLaguna ?) they would do well to begin a separate thread in this Suggestions forum, so that neither issue distracts from the other.

EDIT: I'd like to point out that we had a similar "public" project on the last map. Not a farm, but rather the Empire Arena. It was originally a smaller thing that Kainzo had whipped up in his spare time, but I asked the administration if I could get a team together and get funding to make it bigger and able to accommodate larger tournaments with stadium seating. The entire arena took 50,000c and 2 months to build (very casual building schedule), but the administration helped out, regioned things off for us, and the whole thing went quite well. The admins didn't have trouble with it because it was public, it provided a service, and I wasn't being compensated for it; I just wanted to build something. (My build team, however, was rewarded handsomely.) Anyway, if you have concerns about not being able to protect something that is built for the sake of the server, the administration has, historically, been a very reasonable audience to such ideas.

 

[FFLaguna]

You're right, I don't want the two very different issues to get lumped into one. I've split off the farm griefing discussion.

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

Anyway, if you have concerns about not being able to protect something that is built for the sake of the server, the administration has, historically, been a very reasonable audience to such ideas.

Kain's already voted against the idea, though. Granny Gwawr let's people buy soup for 1c, refill it with the free shrooms, and then sell it back for 1c. She receives no compensation for her very public project. I don't see much difference between that and your arena (besides cost), but Kain apparently does.

Even if we could region off the farm, the point of the farm is that anyone can come and pick a couple mushrooms for their soup... Regions won't solve the problem (that's why it's not in the poll options), the only way to fix this would be by discouraging the theft from happening. Granny's got a nice little following that would make the thief's life hell if they only knew the thief's name. But 6/8 of you voted for "not even the name; this server can't have nice things."

 

[Doreagarde]

Kain's already voted against the idea, though. Granny Gwawr let's people buy soup for 1c, refill it with the free shrooms, and then sell it back for 1c. She receives no compensation for her very public project. I don't see much difference between that and your arena (besides cost), but Kain apparently does.

Even if we could region off the farm, the point of the farm is that anyone can come and pick a couple mushrooms for their soup... Regions won't solve the problem (that's why it's not in the poll options), the only way to fix this would be by discouraging the theft from happening. Granny's got a nice little following that would make the thief's life hell if they only knew the thief's name. But 6/8 of you voted for "not even the name; this server can't have nice things."

There could be public projects in which regions are an option, like Empire Arena on the last map, but I understand why it wouldn't work in this specific case. Kainzo didn't say no, by the way, he said "Hire guards". He's a reasonable guy, he just has his own priorities. The players are important to him, and if you show that this issue is important to you, a player, I'm sure he'll give the issue a closer look.

And don't worry about the poll; there's a selection bias there, and the rules and settled by a democratic process anyway. We have the suggestion forum, not a parliament

 

[codec1]

Whoever did this to Granny Gwawr needs to be camped for several days, period. Its ridiculous that D-bags like these people can get away with crap like this with absolutely no consequences or even risk for their actions. Heck, even a player run/server backed investigation agency would be enough to add some sort of risk to despicable crap like this.

[Example of my thoughts on this]
Should they be able to take mushies... of course they should. Should they be able to take outrageous amounts of mushrooms from a player simply attempting to help others without any consequences, no they shouldnt.

Why they shouldnt is because they arnt just affecting one person their affecting a web of people who are willing to hunt them down mercilessly, given the opportunity. Stealing is one thing... being a D-bag is another so i do think public projects should be in if its a server asset that promotes server activity and gains no profit. But i think investigations should be able to be called on the people who do this kinda stuff to a "public project" by the project owner. If the person is found out and caught they as well as those they are affiliated with pay the price for said persons actions. I dont like the idea of using regions for something like this, but i don't like regions at all to begin with , but some sort of potential consequences should be available for wrecking public projects. Pretty much they should be places that you could do something stupid to but it wouldn't be in your best interest to do so.

i dunno if an agency would be feasible (just got the idea) but i know there has to be some way to add potential consequences to wrecking places of public interest.

 

[Punisher79]

How is this operation a public project anyways? There is personal financial gain (albeit 1c ea) as well as an unlimited supply of soups for warriors lucky enough to be associated with it. Why on earth would this be decreed as a public project when people openly take advantage of it?

I agree that the person, or persons ripping off that many mushrooms didn't need to remove them all. Even leaving one, so they would regrow would have been enough to counter any griefing complaints. Its the same for wheat, currently, is it not? Must replant? Unless I am mistaken.

There are people out there, that IMO, will steal everything not nailed to the floor. Take Carmeops for example. That player took stacks of DIRT because he could. Big deal. I can get more. Its a plentiful resource. Did I learn my lesson and lock up my dirt? Yes I did. Sometimes the hardest lessons learned are the best lessons learned.

 

[Doreagarde]

How is this operation a public project anyways? There is personal financial gain (albeit 1c ea) as well as an unlimited supply of soups for warriors lucky enough to be associated with it. Why on earth would this be decreed as a public project when people openly take advantage of it?

There was no profit. People would put down a 1c deposit on the bowls, which was returned when the bowls were returned. The soup was for everyone.