[Skill] Jump tweaks

[Jorict]

Can it be a ghast fireball that explodes in the air, revealing all sneaking people within a 25 block radius?

 

[Dazureus]

Can it be a ghast fireball that explodes in the air, revealing all sneaking people within a 25 block radius?

I'm not indulging this off-topicitude any further, confound it. Go dig up my Dragoon Needs Love thread or something.

 

[TheEthanEffect]

To be perfectly honest, you should be absolutely delighted with Jump being exactly the way it is. Dragoons have an image of sorts, one of eliteness, and people are drawn to that. It's like snipers in every fucking multiplayer game with sniper capabilities. In Bad Company 2 Hardcore mode, there were Rush rounds where 80% (not an exaggeration) of the attacking force were snipers, allowing the defenders to also snipe at their leisure and bring down the attacker ticket count, infuriating those of us who actually pushed for objectives (and mowed down said defensive snipers when we charge through smoke). However, even though there are tons of "elite" snipers in any FPS community, usually only 10% of them are actually any good and contribute to their team. Despite that, even the few good snipers are penalized because of sanctions like disallowing sniper rifles due to the sheer volume of shitty players who fancy themselves as talented. It's even worse in Oman in Battlefield 3, with players on the US team jacking aircraft to get on top of the skyscrapers by the construction site, then proceeding to go 3/20 for the round because they can't aim and get eaten alive by Russian chopper pilots (that they can do nothing about because they're all snipers and they need their remote spawns).

The same principle applies to Dragoons in Herocraft. Jump is our equivalent of a sniper rifle: It's what makes our class. It, as it is, is key to how the class is. A minor change to the skill is a major change to the class. Now, let me show you why the comparison exists. Like sniping, Jump requires a great deal of skill and precision, especially in combat. There are a lot of intricacies you can only understand if you play a Dragoon. With limited mana and the amount of terrain cleared by a single jump, if you fuck up ONE jump in a fight, you're in serious trouble, and missing two is certain death against capable PvPers, sort of like how missing headshots works for FPS snipers. Miss a jump/headshot, and you catch a fireball/rocket to the face.

Why should you be thrilled by this? It's simple: The amount of precision required to use the core ability of our class means that, like with snipers, only the best Dragoons are successful in combat, with others getting shredded. A lack of mastery in Jump by itself leads to a Dragoon making more Jumps than are necessary, eating away that precious mana he needs when he gets up close to use Disarm and Impale, as well as have a safety net to escape (which against stronger melee classes, he WILL need to do). When it comes time to fight, efficient use of Jump relies on two factors: Mastery of Jump, and the ability to maintain the focus needed to use it in the middle of a fight.

Like all fights, remaining calm is the key to succeed. If you panic, especially as a precision based class, you're dead. One of the most effective ways to beat a Dragoon is to get them flustered in combat. Amateur fighters, not just Dragoons, will instantly begin trying to assess an engagement the moment they begin taking damage. If the Dragoon is not confident in his abilities, or not well versed in the skill (both of the class and the player) and defenses of his target, he may begin to consider withdrawing from the battle, even if it's one he could have won by sticking it out. The more damage an amateur Dragoon takes, the more likely he is to withdraw, and since Jump is so effective, the higher likelihood for a successful retreat makes it more probable the Dragoon will withdraw, playing it safe.

Ironically enough, it's at this point where a battle that may have been going well in the Dragoon's favor will turn against him if his opponent is perceptive enough to see it happening and take advantage of it. Amateur Dragoons will retreat more often out of a fight for the sake of self preservation than to gain better positioning and recharge to immediately reengage. If the Dragoon is about to run for his life, he's 99.9% of the time planning to use Jump, which as was established earlier, requires high precision and focus, the latter of which is already compromised by panic. This is where the outcome of the battle is determined. A Dragoon who can execute two successfully aimed jumps (and has the mana to do so after a close range battle where he likely used both Disarm and Impale) has a solid chance of escaping. A Dragoon without the mana, mastery, or focus needed to make a jump he might have otherwise been able to make out of combat, will fuck up his jump (if he even has enough mana) will now face the full wrath of all of the downsides of Jump. The Dragoon might choose to escape over a nearby wall, and begins his jump. His attempt to escape may well end before it even begins, if his opponent uses a knockback, root, or sets him on fire, robbing him of the moment he needs to gauge the terrain to be cleared. IF YOU ARE FIGHTING A DRAGOON IN CLOSE COMBAT, THE EASIEST WAY TO DEFEAT HIM IS TO KEEP FIGHTING LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM WANT TO WITHDRAW, AND THEN DENY HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO BY KEEPING UP THE PRESSURE. Assuming he gets that brief moment he needs, he may well not assess the gap carefully, and go to jump the wall, only to smack straight into the top part of it and fall. This might incur fall damage, but more importantly, it eats up a significant amount of the Dragoon's remaining mana (of which he might have only had enough for the one jump as it is), as well as pops the three second cooldown before he can jump again, giving his target time to catch up, and possibly hit him with abilities to hamper his next chance. Alternatively, the Dragoon might jump too far, missing the position he needed to be in to make his next jump after that, where the mana cost and cooldown come into play once again. Jump is not a guaranteed escape, and has cost more than one Dragoon their life because they didn't make proper use of it.

In conclusion, Jump is far, far more delicate than you seem to think it is. The very benefits it provides can be extremely punishing if the Dragoon doesn't know how to use the ability, and serve as a pretty effective balancing factor. Like my comparison I drew earlier, just as a sniper rifle and its damage but long recharge are only useful to a sniper who can consistently make headshots, a Dragoon's Jump is only effective in the hands of a Dragoon who won't smack into walls or just barely miss clearing chasms, or not making it up the side of a mountain. In the hands of amateur snipers/Dragoons, sniper rifles/Jump are every bit at dangerous to the user as they are to the target, if not moreso.

 

[brancher]

meow

 

[Acherous]

meow

Hai thur brancher!

 

[codyneace]

To be perfectly honest, you should be absolutely delighted with Jump being exactly the way it is. Dragoons have an image of sorts, one of eliteness, and people are drawn to that. It's like snipers in every fucking multiplayer game with sniper capabilities. In Bad Company 2 Hardcore mode, there were Rush rounds where 80% (not an exaggeration) of the attacking force were snipers, allowing the defenders to also snipe at their leisure and bring down the attacker ticket count, infuriating those of us who actually pushed for objectives (and mowed down said defensive snipers when we charge through smoke). However, even though there are tons of "elite" snipers in any FPS community, usually only 10% of them are actually any good and contribute to their team. Despite that, even the few good snipers are penalized because of sanctions like disallowing sniper rifles due to the sheer volume of shitty players who fancy themselves as talented. It's even worse in Oman in Battlefield 3, with players on the US team jacking aircraft to get on top of the skyscrapers by the construction site, then proceeding to go 3/20 for the round because they can't aim and get eaten alive by Russian chopper pilots (that they can do nothing about because they're all snipers and they need their remote spawns).

The same principle applies to Dragoons in Herocraft. Jump is our equivalent of a sniper rifle: It's what makes our class. It, as it is, is key to how the class is. A minor change to the skill is a major change to the class. Now, let me show you why the comparison exists. Like sniping, Jump requires a great deal of skill and precision, especially in combat. There are a lot of intricacies you can only understand if you play a Dragoon. With limited mana and the amount of terrain cleared by a single jump, if you fuck up ONE jump in a fight, you're in serious trouble, and missing two is certain death against capable PvPers, sort of like how missing headshots works for FPS snipers. Miss a jump/headshot, and you catch a fireball/rocket to the face.

Why should you be thrilled by this? It's simple: The amount of precision required to use the core ability of our class means that, like with snipers, only the best Dragoons are successful in combat, with others getting shredded. A lack of mastery in Jump by itself leads to a Dragoon making more Jumps than are necessary, eating away that precious mana he needs when he gets up close to use Disarm and Impale, as well as have a safety net to escape (which against stronger melee classes, he WILL need to do). When it comes time to fight, efficient use of Jump relies on two factors: Mastery of Jump, and the ability to maintain the focus needed to use it in the middle of a fight.

Like all fights, remaining calm is the key to succeed. If you panic, especially as a precision based class, you're dead. One of the most effective ways to beat a Dragoon is to get them flustered in combat. Amateur fighters, not just Dragoons, will instantly begin trying to assess an engagement the moment they begin taking damage. If the Dragoon is not confident in his abilities, or not well versed in the skill (both of the class and the player) and defenses of his target, he may begin to consider withdrawing from the battle, even if it's one he could have won by sticking it out. The more damage an amateur Dragoon takes, the more likely he is to withdraw, and since Jump is so effective, the higher likelihood for a successful retreat makes it more probable the Dragoon will withdraw, playing it safe.

Ironically enough, it's at this point where a battle that may have been going well in the Dragoon's favor will turn against him if his opponent is perceptive enough to see it happening and take advantage of it. Amateur Dragoons will retreat more often out of a fight for the sake of self preservation than to gain better positioning and recharge to immediately reengage. If the Dragoon is about to run for his life, he's 99.9% of the time planning to use Jump, which as was established earlier, requires high precision and focus, the latter of which is already compromised by panic. This is where the outcome of the battle is determined. A Dragoon who can execute two successfully aimed jumps (and has the mana to do so after a close range battle where he likely used both Disarm and Impale) has a solid chance of escaping. A Dragoon without the mana, mastery, or focus needed to make a jump he might have otherwise been able to make out of combat, will fuck up his jump (if he even has enough mana) will now face the full wrath of all of the downsides of Jump. The Dragoon might choose to escape over a nearby wall, and begins his jump. His attempt to escape may well end before it even begins, if his opponent uses a knockback, root, or sets him on fire, robbing him of the moment he needs to gauge the terrain to be cleared. IF YOU ARE FIGHTING A DRAGOON IN CLOSE COMBAT, THE EASIEST WAY TO DEFEAT HIM IS TO KEEP FIGHTING LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM WANT TO WITHDRAW, AND THEN DENY HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO BY KEEPING UP THE PRESSURE. Assuming he gets that brief moment he needs, he may well not assess the gap carefully, and go to jump the wall, only to smack straight into the top part of it and fall. This might incur fall damage, but more importantly, it eats up a significant amount of the Dragoon's remaining mana (of which he might have only had enough for the one jump as it is), as well as pops the three second cooldown before he can jump again, giving his target time to catch up, and possibly hit him with abilities to hamper his next chance. Alternatively, the Dragoon might jump too far, missing the position he needed to be in to make his next jump after that, where the mana cost and cooldown come into play once again. Jump is not a guaranteed escape, and has cost more than one Dragoon their life because they didn't make proper use of it.

In conclusion, Jump is far, far more delicate than you seem to think it is. The very benefits it provides can be extremely punishing if the Dragoon doesn't know how to use the ability, and serve as a pretty effective balancing factor. Like my comparison I drew earlier, just as a sniper rifle and its damage but long recharge are only useful to a sniper who can consistently make headshots, a Dragoon's Jump is only effective in the hands of a Dragoon who won't smack into walls or just barely miss clearing chasms, or not making it up the side of a mountain. In the hands of amateur snipers/Dragoons, sniper rifles/Jump are every bit at dangerous to the user as they are to the target, if not moreso.

lol.

 

[applelove]

I'm a bit surprised at the the number of garbage responses here. "lol" and other spam and flamebait. I expected a lot more from the herocraft community.
That being said, I love you Ethan.

I should add that I'm a dragoon for the exact reasons that are being complained about here. I have no plans to pvp at all in 3.0, have no mastery of the class, will probably kill myself with my own skills 9/10 times, but Jump is fun.

 

[kevinlive]

Soo.. *blink*

Btw Etan, this might be kinda off-topic but you're damn good when it comes to writing good stuff

 

[Acherous]

To be perfectly honest, you should be absolutely delighted with Jump being exactly the way it is. Dragoons have an image of sorts, one of eliteness, and people are drawn to that. It's like snipers in every fucking multiplayer game with sniper capabilities. In Bad Company 2 Hardcore mode, there were Rush rounds where 80% (not an exaggeration) of the attacking force were snipers, allowing the defenders to also snipe at their leisure and bring down the attacker ticket count, infuriating those of us who actually pushed for objectives (and mowed down said defensive snipers when we charge through smoke). However, even though there are tons of "elite" snipers in any FPS community, usually only 10% of them are actually any good and contribute to their team. Despite that, even the few good snipers are penalized because of sanctions like disallowing sniper rifles due to the sheer volume of shitty players who fancy themselves as talented. It's even worse in Oman in Battlefield 3, with players on the US team jacking aircraft to get on top of the skyscrapers by the construction site, then proceeding to go 3/20 for the round because they can't aim and get eaten alive by Russian chopper pilots (that they can do nothing about because they're all snipers and they need their remote spawns).

The same principle applies to Dragoons in Herocraft. Jump is our equivalent of a sniper rifle: It's what makes our class. It, as it is, is key to how the class is. A minor change to the skill is a major change to the class. Now, let me show you why the comparison exists. Like sniping, Jump requires a great deal of skill and precision, especially in combat. There are a lot of intricacies you can only understand if you play a Dragoon. With limited mana and the amount of terrain cleared by a single jump, if you fuck up ONE jump in a fight, you're in serious trouble, and missing two is certain death against capable PvPers, sort of like how missing headshots works for FPS snipers. Miss a jump/headshot, and you catch a fireball/rocket to the face.

Why should you be thrilled by this? It's simple: The amount of precision required to use the core ability of our class means that, like with snipers, only the best Dragoons are successful in combat, with others getting shredded. A lack of mastery in Jump by itself leads to a Dragoon making more Jumps than are necessary, eating away that precious mana he needs when he gets up close to use Disarm and Impale, as well as have a safety net to escape (which against stronger melee classes, he WILL need to do). When it comes time to fight, efficient use of Jump relies on two factors: Mastery of Jump, and the ability to maintain the focus needed to use it in the middle of a fight.

Like all fights, remaining calm is the key to succeed. If you panic, especially as a precision based class, you're dead. One of the most effective ways to beat a Dragoon is to get them flustered in combat. Amateur fighters, not just Dragoons, will instantly begin trying to assess an engagement the moment they begin taking damage. If the Dragoon is not confident in his abilities, or not well versed in the skill (both of the class and the player) and defenses of his target, he may begin to consider withdrawing from the battle, even if it's one he could have won by sticking it out. The more damage an amateur Dragoon takes, the more likely he is to withdraw, and since Jump is so effective, the higher likelihood for a successful retreat makes it more probable the Dragoon will withdraw, playing it safe.

Ironically enough, it's at this point where a battle that may have been going well in the Dragoon's favor will turn against him if his opponent is perceptive enough to see it happening and take advantage of it. Amateur Dragoons will retreat more often out of a fight for the sake of self preservation than to gain better positioning and recharge to immediately reengage. If the Dragoon is about to run for his life, he's 99.9% of the time planning to use Jump, which as was established earlier, requires high precision and focus, the latter of which is already compromised by panic. This is where the outcome of the battle is determined. A Dragoon who can execute two successfully aimed jumps (and has the mana to do so after a close range battle where he likely used both Disarm and Impale) has a solid chance of escaping. A Dragoon without the mana, mastery, or focus needed to make a jump he might have otherwise been able to make out of combat, will fuck up his jump (if he even has enough mana) will now face the full wrath of all of the downsides of Jump. The Dragoon might choose to escape over a nearby wall, and begins his jump. His attempt to escape may well end before it even begins, if his opponent uses a knockback, root, or sets him on fire, robbing him of the moment he needs to gauge the terrain to be cleared. IF YOU ARE FIGHTING A DRAGOON IN CLOSE COMBAT, THE EASIEST WAY TO DEFEAT HIM IS TO KEEP FIGHTING LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM WANT TO WITHDRAW, AND THEN DENY HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO BY KEEPING UP THE PRESSURE. Assuming he gets that brief moment he needs, he may well not assess the gap carefully, and go to jump the wall, only to smack straight into the top part of it and fall. This might incur fall damage, but more importantly, it eats up a significant amount of the Dragoon's remaining mana (of which he might have only had enough for the one jump as it is), as well as pops the three second cooldown before he can jump again, giving his target time to catch up, and possibly hit him with abilities to hamper his next chance. Alternatively, the Dragoon might jump too far, missing the position he needed to be in to make his next jump after that, where the mana cost and cooldown come into play once again. Jump is not a guaranteed escape, and has cost more than one Dragoon their life because they didn't make proper use of it.

In conclusion, Jump is far, far more delicate than you seem to think it is. The very benefits it provides can be extremely punishing if the Dragoon doesn't know how to use the ability, and serve as a pretty effective balancing factor. Like my comparison I drew earlier, just as a sniper rifle and its damage but long recharge are only useful to a sniper who can consistently make headshots, a Dragoon's Jump is only effective in the hands of a Dragoon who won't smack into walls or just barely miss clearing chasms, or not making it up the side of a mountain. In the hands of amateur snipers/Dragoons, sniper rifles/Jump are every bit at dangerous to the user as they are to the target, if not moreso.

lol.

 

[Fjordsen]

I read the 2 first pages of this topic. Then i realised it was 3 more -.-

 

[codyneace]

have fun catching up on page 5!

 

[Acherous]

I love this topic and I've read almost nothing on it! I just read the bits and pieces of me getting slandered before i started posting

 

[Fjordsen]

No, this is not fun at all. I'm close to just stop reading and start sleeping (considering it's 1.30am in norway that may be a good idea)

 

[applelove]

This isn't Offtopic, this is suggestions, for serious threads and discussion. If you guys want to act like baffoons, go for it, but this is not the place to do so.

 

[Apherdite]

Please stay on topic. OT posts will be deleted.

 

[strongholdx]

Is this conversationg still happening?

 

[TheEthanEffect]

Well, If people intend to keep their discussions serious perhaps they shouldn't just blatantly slander the names of players like megan and ethan have. Ethans post would have been fine without throwing in my name and saying how terrible of a dragoon I am and I think megan just threw my name in for shits and giggles. If they are going to display such needless childish behavior why should I not post here like I have been?

I'm not slandering your name. You yourself admitted it on more than one occasion in conversation, going so far as to ask me to teach you how to become a better Dragoon. I wish I had taken screenshots of those conversations, but since I did not, I will again post this screenshot of what preceded one of said conversations because it's both funny and relevant to this discussion.

To put in context to explain the full health, the battle took place right outside of Solis, so I put some distance between myself and that point before taking the screenshot. As a note of trivia, I think that's actually ShadoWall's spear, as it was in better shape than mine was.


Why is this relevant? While the story I posted after it happened (http://i.imgur.com/CDjyl.jpg) was drawn out for dramatic effect, the battle happened pretty much as described. Thanks to GraRona, I got a track on ShadoWall (who was my intended target, kriskills was just a target of opportunity), and snuck up to his position. This was before the dynamic map was around, which for the record, I think is more than a little lame. I did launch my attack from higher ground with an opening jump, and there was indeed a very narrow crevice that I had scouted out before engaging. Dragoons are a precision class, so I dropped down into the crack knowing full well that if I screwed up here, I was toast. ShadowAll and kriskills followed me in, just as I hoped the would, and with the walls too high to jump out of, I jumped up to land behind Shadowall and tear him to shreds before he knew what was happening. After that, Kriskills' lesser HP, combined with my ability to take away his ability to do damage with disarm, made that fight much easier to win, as I had used my abilities when both moving and fighting conservatively, and still had the mana to hold him off through Disarm long enough for my lesser damage to overtake him.

My point here is as I have made through the thread. The abilities of a class are only part of the fight. The skill of the player has much more to do with it. I was up against two level 50s. If I had just rushed in and blown all my mana, I would have been wiped out pretty easily. Dragoons have the unique ability, via Jump, to dictate the terms on which the battle is fought. A good Dragoon that uses this to their advantage can be an incredibly tough opponent, just as any class that utilizes their strength to its maximum potential is. The thing to remember when fighting Dragoons (or any class for that matter) is to never take their skill for granted, never underestimate them based on level, and do everything you can to disrupt their focus, as once you do, you gain the upper hand quite quickly.

 

[jmoney222]

Please stay on topic. OT posts will be deleted.

 

[TheEthanEffect]

I now regret handing out those tracks to you, after seeing the attitude you go about on getting those two kills. If you're going to kill two people against the odds, good job you're probably good at pvp. I don't have a problem with you being good at pvp but if you're going to be an ass about it and put down other people, I'm definitely not fine with that.

I can see where you might think that, but I'm not flaunting it and throwing around rampant disrespect. I do that to ShadoWall enough elsewhere for other more deserved reasons and choices that are made outside of combat, and this is a solid class based discussion that should not be derailed. He accuses me of slander, when in fact he himself has said it multiple times, and that is the sole reason I listed him by name in my original post. In fact, I have on far more than one occasion given props to ShadoWall for his performance in combat, including times where he has beaten me. I'm an asshole at times, but I'm a sportsman above that. I'm disappointed to see that he believes his name was brought up in a direct attempt to provoke him, but given how I act towards him regarding his behavior out of combat, I can see why he might think that. My apologies to ShadoWall for any misunderstanding there. I can't comment on Megan's post, as I don't know her intention when writing it, but even if it is an attempt at disrespect, I wouldn't worry too much about it, as nobody likes her anyway.

With regards to the screenshot, it is indeed funny (as I leveled up to 38 by killing the king and SIC of the ARC kingdom the day it was founded) but it has a great deal importance to this conversation, and that is why I posted it. The reason I posted that screenshot is because of the detail in the chat history. It shows both effective employment of a Dragoon's abilities (as well as a Ninja's), my mana levels during each tick of the fight, and the amount of cooldown time that still existed because I had disarmed ShadoWall right before killing him and the transition I made to engaging kriskills, as well as the few seconds of relative safety I had from his MUCH higher damage dealing abilities through the use of Disarm, which gave me the time I needed to win the fight.

While a video to show the employment of Dragoon skills in combat would be preferred, a screenshot of console capture is the best thing that I can provide.

 

[Acherous]

I can see where you might think that, but I'm not flaunting it and throwing around rampant disrespect. I do that to ShadoWall enough elsewhere for other more deserved reasons and choices that are made outside of combat, and this is a solid class based discussion that should not be derailed. He accuses me of slander, when in fact he himself has said it multiple times, and that is the sole reason I listed him by name in my original post. In fact, I have on far more than one occasion given props to ShadoWall for his performance in combat, including times where he has beaten me. I'm an asshole at times, but I'm a sportsman above that. I'm disappointed to see that he believes his name was brought up in a direct attempt to provoke him, but given how I act towards him regarding his behavior out of combat, I can see why he might think that. My apologies to ShadoWall for any misunderstanding there. I can't comment on Megan's post, as I don't know her intention when writing it, but even if it is an attempt at disrespect, I wouldn't worry too much about it, as nobody likes her anyway.

With regards to the screenshot, it is indeed funny (as I leveled up to 38 by killing the king and SIC of the ARC kingdom the day it was founded) but it has a great deal importance to this conversation, and that is why I posted it. The reason I posted that screenshot is because of the detail in the chat history. It shows both effective employment of a Dragoon's abilities (as well as a Ninja's), my mana levels during each tick of the fight, and the amount of cooldown time that still existed because I had disarmed ShadoWall right before killing him and the transition I made to engaging kriskills, as well as the few seconds of relative safety I had from his MUCH higher damage dealing abilities through the use of Disarm, which gave me the time I needed to win the fight.

While a video to show the employment of Dragoon skills in combat would be preferred, a screenshot of console capture is the best thing that I can provide.

I would like to apologize too. Lately I have been very sensitive(rl stuff) and ofter over react and rage easily. I'm sorry for accusing you of slander. I have completely forgotten the times where you have actually complimented me. I guess situations like these tend to happen due to the fact that you cant tell someones tone of voice through text . But anyways dragoons are a completely balanced class. It's all about your skill.