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Suggestion Seikuken/IronFist blows.

STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Both of these skills have 23 second cooldowns, which is acceptable. They are, however, underperforming skills.

Lets begin with the Stamina cost:
IronFist costs 375 Stamina and 95 Mana.
Seikuken costs 400 Stamina and 125 Mana.

It should be noted that these skills were meant to compliment each other; slow a group of people with IronFist and then disarm/deal damage to them in the process if they left click you while your Seikuken is on for 3 seconds. That said, should something like this really cost 775 stamina and 20% of my mana? Too high, in my opinion.

Secondly, the skills themselves just don't cut it. IronFist is an AOE that deals damage, knocks players away from you, and puts a Slowness 1 debuff on them for 5 seconds. The slowness needs to be more powerful, since Slowness 1 is barely noticeable. Furthermore, IronFist should pull players inward and not outward. This would be a better direction if its going to compliment Seikuken.

...Seikuken, the skill few people understand. Seikuken is a skill that gives the Disciple a 3-second debuff of Slowness 5. For the sake of comparison, a disciple's movement speed is slower than if he was sneaking for the duration of Seikuken. The skill itself is interesting and unique; if a player left clicks the Disciple, the player is disarmed and is damaged for (50-60% of the Disciple's weapon damage, depending on his Intellect build). It should be noted that the damage does not go through armor. Furthermore, the Disciple is invulnerable from left click damage during the duration of Seikuken, but is not invulnerable from skills.

While Seikuken is a unique skill with interesting features, it simply doesn't cut it because of the Slowness 5 debuff. A bad player will hit me while I'm seikukened and not back away. They will continue to left click me with their fists, oblivious to the damage they are taking while I too left click and use skills on them. A good player will hit me once, back away, and use skills on me while I just effectively rooted myself for 3 seconds. An exceptional player will recognise that I have used Seikuken before even left clicking me, and will take full advantage of the fact that I am rooted for the next 3 seconds. These 'bad players' are few and far between as every day passes. Against players who are actually a PVP threat the skill itself has the potential to hurt me more than benefit me. At this point the skill should be called Suicide and not Seikuken. The easiest solution; get rid of the Slowness debuff, for shit's sake. Not that I'm a lore lover, but why the fuck is a martial art's master who is clearly quick to react getting a slowness 5 debuff?
 

szatanista

Soulsand
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I might be mistaken but isnt Seikuken a buff for whole party? AFAIK it gives your whole party invulnerability from left-clicks for 3 seconds while giving you slowness V...I think that makes sense
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
I will agree that things are pretty stale for disciple... It seems like all of its abilities are on high cooldowns. It really makes disciple feel sluggish. I completely disagree that disciple should have ironfist pull players in, because that's a tank's job (i.e. reckoning), but the cooldown and effectiveness of the ability is just bad. Seikuken is nice, but it feels slow. High cooldown, gives you big slow for too long, and in particular the thing with the disarm is that during the most of the duration of the enemy's disarm, you're slowed and unable to hit them. It's like you're not even able to take advantage of the fact that you disarmed them.

Also, I was much happier with the old flyingkick and ironfist. After all, anyone can get enough agility to negate that kind of fall damage, and even so fall damage was not particularly overpowered without tumble on everyone.
 

northeaster345

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
I will agree that things are pretty stale for disciple... It seems like all of its abilities are on high cooldowns. It really makes disciple feel sluggish. I completely disagree that disciple should have ironfist pull players in, because that's a tank's job (i.e. reckoning), but the cooldown and effectiveness of the ability is just bad. Seikuken is nice, but it feels slow. High cooldown, gives you big slow for too long, and in particular the thing with the disarm is that during the most of the duration of the enemy's disarm, you're slowed and unable to hit them. It's like you're not even able to take advantage of the fact that you disarmed them.
Also, I was much happier with the old flyingkick and ironfist. After all, anyone can get enough agility to negate that kind of fall damage, and even so fall damage was not particularly overpowered without tumble on everyone.

Tumble has no effect on almost any class except those with a higher base value for tumble. It was nerfed significantly, so that even with 30 pts of agility a dragoon can only fall 5 blocks with tumble as opposed to something like 15 last map.

Most classes would have to be 35 pts in agility before they would notice the effects of tumble at all, woo 3.5 block falls don't hurt any more
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
Tumble has no effect on almost any class except those with a higher base value for tumble. It was nerfed significantly, so that even with 30 pts of agility a dragoon can only fall 5 blocks with tumble as opposed to something like 15 last map.

Most classes would have to be 35 pts in agility before they would notice the effects of tumble at all, woo 3.5 block falls don't hurt any more

I'm sorry... what? All I had to do was put 10 points of agility into my Disciple to get it to have it negate 4 blocks of fall damage. I think you're sorely mistaken.
 

northeaster345

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
I'm sorry... what? All I had to do was put 10 points of agility into my Disciple to get it to have it negate 4 blocks of fall damage. I think you're sorely mistaken.

You don't normally take damage from falling 3 blocks.
I was going off of the numbers in the wiki which say disciple can fall 1 + .1* agi without taking damage.

4 blocks of fall damage is very little.
10 attribute points isn't much, but 20 and 30 are extremely expensive

If your numbers are correct and it's actually .3 per pt agi then yes tumble can become more significant, but most classes don't run 10+ agi before which tumble does nothing.
 

look_out

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
I will agree that things are pretty stale for disciple... It seems like all of its abilities are on high cooldowns. It really makes disciple feel sluggish. I completely disagree that disciple should have ironfist pull players in, because that's a tank's job (i.e. reckoning), but the cooldown and effectiveness of the ability is just bad. Seikuken is nice, but it feels slow. High cooldown, gives you big slow for too long, and in particular the thing with the disarm is that during the most of the duration of the enemy's disarm, you're slowed and unable to hit them. It's like you're not even able to take advantage of the fact that you disarmed them.
Also, I was much happier with the old flyingkick and ironfist. After all, anyone can get enough agility to negate that kind of fall damage, and even so fall damage was not particularly overpowered without tumble on everyone.
You can actually hit people while Seikuken( im master disciple you can trust me )
 

Egorh

Outcast
Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Seikuken-A situational skill. I must say it is a lot less punishing to the person then it should be. The gatling gun on the test server before Haven was a bit much but now I do feel even if they spam click me they are hardly being punished. It is still worth it because of the disarm.

Ironfist-Lacking, I think just buffing the slow/range of it would suffice.
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
You can actually hit people while Seikuken( im master disciple you can trust me )

I'm also a master disciple, but that's irrelevant. My point id that while you can still punch people, the slow is so great that you are rarely able to take advantage of the disarm from the ability.
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
You don't normally take damage from falling 3 blocks.
I was going off of the numbers in the wiki which say disciple can fall 1 + .1* agi without taking damage.

4 blocks of fall damage is very little.
10 attribute points isn't much, but 20 and 30 are extremely expensive

If your numbers are correct and it's actually .3 per pt agi then yes tumble can become more significant, but most classes don't run 10+ agi before which tumble does nothing.

Sorry, thought you were smoking crack. When you said "3.5 block falls" don't deal damage with a lot of agility, it looked like you had no idea what you were talking about.
 

STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Not that it's relevant, but EVERY class is able to fall at least 2 blocks without taking fall damage assuming their Agility rating is at least 0. EVERY class is able to negate 0.1 blocks more fall damage for every point into Agility. There are some classes that can fall 3 blocks with 0 agility, 4, and 5. Disciples fall in the 3 block category and will therefore be able to fall 4 blocks without taking damage if their agility was 10, like Keache.
 
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STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
You can actually hit people while Seikuken( im master disciple you can trust me )
Correct, but have fun getting close to anyone when you have a Slowness 5 debuff on you. Furthermore, the player who hits the Disciple while Seikukened gets knocked back. Unless he moves forward you'll never be able to lay a hand on him and you're a sitting duck for 3 seconds.
 

Nashah

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Location
California
Tumble has no effect on almost any class except those with a higher base value for tumble. It was nerfed significantly, so that even with 30 pts of agility a dragoon can only fall 5 blocks with tumble as opposed to something like 15 last map.

Most classes would have to be 35 pts in agility before they would notice the effects of tumble at all, woo 3.5 block falls don't hurt any more

As a dragoon with 30 agility I can fall 8 blocks without taking damage. When I was a ranger with 40 agility I could fall 9 blocks without taking damage. At that point I could jump down 30 blocks and take about 5 hearts of damage when the same fall would do quite a bit more to other classes.

Naturally you can fall 3 blocks without taking any fall damage (checked the minecraft wiki). When tumble adds a number like with dragoons and rangers it means it adds to the base 3 you can already fall, making it 5 automatically. Adding 30 points of agility then raises it another 3 to 8.
 

northeaster345

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
As a dragoon with 30 agility I can fall 8 blocks without taking damage. When I was a ranger with 40 agility I could fall 9 blocks without taking damage. At that point I could jump down 30 blocks and take about 5 hearts of damage when the same fall would do quite a bit more to other classes.

Naturally you can fall 3 blocks without taking any fall damage (checked the minecraft wiki). When tumble adds a number like with dragoons and rangers it means it adds to the base 3 you can already fall, making it 5 automatically. Adding 30 points of agility then raises it another 3 to 8.

Maybe we can get some clarification from @Delfofthebla on how tumble works since the wiki on this seems to be out of date?
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
It's times like these that I wish the Wiki Team Lead had access to the code so that they can accurately fill in the wiki. You'd think it would allow them to do their job properly.
 

Nashah

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Location
California
Maybe we can get some clarification from @Delfofthebla on how tumble works since the wiki on this seems to be out of date?

If you do /skills and look up tumble in your skills list it will tell you how far you can fall without taking damage. Unless it is incorrect it tells me I can fall 8. I think that is honestly quite a lot compared to the other classes.


Playing as a dragoon. On the normal server.
 

malikdanab

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Maybe we can get some clarification from @Delfofthebla on how tumble works since the wiki on this seems to be out of date?
Agility's affect on tumble should be 0.1 blocks per point of agility. Seems pretty straightforward to me...
The base at zero is 3 blocks. The formula should be:
Number of blocks without fall damage = (3 + (A * 0.1))
 

Dakinara

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
wiki team lead does have access to code, but code changes very frequently at times so, ya know, things get left behind. But if you see anything like this that needs updating feel free to tag anyone on wikiteam or especially @WitchOnaRampage

That said, as quoted by malik i think the formula is basically 0.1 blocks per agility, but certain classes must have different base values.
 
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