• Guest, we are doing a new map (refresh) for Herocraft. Gather your friends and get ready! Coming next Friday, 06/28/24 @ 7PM CT play.hc.to
    Read up on the guides and new systems! Here.
    View the LIVE Map here @ hc.to/map
    Stuck or have a problem? use "/pe create" to to open a ticket with staff (There are some known issues and other hotfixes we will be pushing asap)
  • Guest, Make sure to use our LAUNCHER! Read more here!

Samurai, Dreadknight, Dragoon, general melee Balance

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
Another Edit: This post could have been thought out better... So don't take a lot of this post to heart, except that DK's are op!!!! :3

Edit: Welp, I dun derped hard. I meant to post this in the suggestions forum... Can i get an admin to move it for me or something? I heard @Lastivity enjoyed moving posts...

After some contemplation and comparison, I've decided to point out how underpowered a Samurai and melee users really are in comparison to the other classes In quite a few situations (I want to focus on Samurai, but hopefully i can get to DK and Dragoon and some other perspectives as well. Please feel free to call me an idiot and point out what is overly opinionated/false. I'd love to hear opinions on this.)

So, a Samurai in PvP against a caster: Samurai chases the caster while said caster laughs and kites them. Since it has no Crowd Control, Samurai can't do a damn thing unless the caster runs into a post or sits still. Samurai can get a bleed or two off, but that would leave it without stamina, and make it more impossible to chase the caster.
Samurai vs. DK: DK will just flatout out dps a Samurai and make it cry. Samurai can't do any damage with bleeds because of the DK armor, and the DK will just rip through a Samurai's armor with decay and soulleech, while cursing and disarming to make sure Samurai still deals no damage. To top it all off, the DK will still be able to run since it uses little to no stamina, making it just about superior to all of the other warrior specs in that regard (I'm excluding Paladin in this post.)
Samurai vs Dragoon: I can't say who'd win in this situation (havn't been in this fight myself or seen one), but what I can say is that dragoons are better since they have a gap closer and a CC. While otherwise fun, Dragoons in PvP are utterly boring. There are no tactics involved in "spam left click and impale". Yes, dragoons have the major advantage of jump and mobility, but the only three abilities you ever use as a dragoon is jump, superjump, and impale (probably due to two useless/broken abilities, but still). Impale takes a lot of stamina, and if you bash or strike to increase your small damage output, directly after you impale then you can't run or use any of your other two abilities. It's quite frustrating when you are so hindered by using your abilities and being unable to run, while using none of our abilities makes us ineffective. It's very difficult and frustrating.

Anyway, since this is a suggestion post i might as well offer some suggestions! (cannot 100% guarentee these are any good, I have little-no experience in designing these things).

1: give melee attacks a chance to slightly daze fleeing enemies. This will give warriors/melee the ability to catch fleeing casters and etc., which makes sense, because when you're sprinting from a caster, they can still dps you while they run after you. None of their abilities make them stop sprinting or prevent them from sprinting (unless they cast something), so why should warriors be unable to catch anything when casters can? Because right now the other way around, if a caster turns tail and runs, a warrior can chase to its heart's content and not accomplish much unless the caster trips over a log. Changing this will also make you want to think about whether you commit to a fight or not, and add a little more variety.

2: Allow sprinting when stamina is at 0. This will enable melee to use their combos without fear of being unable to get into melee range against a ranger or caster or fleeing enemy. Again, mana users like dreadknights don't spend all their stamina easily when they use all their skills and as a result can still stay up close and personal while using most of their potential. I don't feel that punishing stamina users is a good thing, especially since it's so restricting.

3: Disable toggle run (while in combat). Toggle run does allow people to run while moving backwarsd, allowing casters to much more easily kite melee and use their abilities. Unless using abilities stops running for a brief while, there are no reprocussions for this and make it quite difficult for a meleer to do anything. If this was changed, kiting would be a bit harder and make it require more skill to pull off and require more dodging.

4: back to samurai: have the bleeds ignore armor. This should bring its dps up so that it can take on a heavily armored, ass kicking DK, and define it more as the melee dps.


Whew, i digressed quite a bit. Oh well, it's late is all I have to say.
That's it for now, gotta rest my brain for a bit. I think it's starting to get a little smokey in here.
Anyway, let me know what you all think!

Keache
 

Malomarcus

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
I definitely agree with this. Samurai gives off great DPS but has no crowd control. Plus fighting a DK is hard due to superior DPS and armor while our main DOT's do even less damage. I have beaten a level 50 fully armored DK but it wasn't an easy fight at all and if the DK was mastered I would have lost. Samurai is not very weak of a class but has trouble having a chance against certain classes.
 

Symbolite

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
I agree that Bleed and even Mortalwound should not be effected by armor. Some sort of crowd control would be nice but it might tip the balance to much, we get one at 60 which will be a helpful skill with catching our prey.
 

c12095

Holy Shit!
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
I think @SharpPencil should comment on this thread, best Sammy i've seen on the server and he seems to have no issue killing just about anyone.
 

Malomarcus

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
I've fought SharpPencil before. He is good but one person's opinion because they are the "best" shouldn't dictate a classes direction. His input is important though no doubt. Samurai is getting crowd control and bleeds not affecting armor will help against heavy armored foes.
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
I guess what I'm trying to say here is if a Dreadknight can do everything a Samurai can and better, then I think there's something wrong with balance...
 

The_Player_189

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
What about inversion?

PS: Samurais can easily take on a dreadknight if they used there skills right.
 

c12095

Holy Shit!
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
I've fought SharpPencil before. He is good but one person's opinion because they are the "best" shouldn't dictate a classes direction. His input is important though no doubt. Samurai is getting crowd control and bleeds not affecting armor will help against heavy armored foes.

I didn't say he would direct the decision of samurais? However having the best player of a class give their opinion allows you to understand the full extent of how the class can be played, he most likely knows something most of you don't because I've seen him take down dreadknights with ease.
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
I've killed mastered Samurai as a DK at level 30. Don't know if the player was a good or bad Sammy, but I did feel that something was off.
My point remains about how bad it is for melee to run out of stamina/being unable to run; can you guys agree with this or am I being illogical?
 

c12095

Holy Shit!
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
I've killed mastered Samurai as a DK at level 30. Don't know if the player was a good or bad Sammy, but I did feel that something was off.
My point remains about how bad it is for melee to run out of stamina/being unable to run; can you guys agree with this or am I being illogical?

Illogical imo
 

SharpPencil

A frightening Cactus!
Joined
Oct 5, 2011
Lets be real here, if you were a wizard with 80 hp and samurai has 107.5, I am pretty sure you would not want to get in melee range of a samurai or any warrior class for that matter. Now, you can kill a wizard in 8 hits with a diamond sword MINUS all of your skills. If the wizard has armor it may be about what, a few more hits? If you know how to play a class correctly then you can get around other players' skills.

So now let's put DOTs into the mix. Run up to a wizard, put mortalwound, bleed. That's 40 damage right there. They are going to waste their mana on a bolt and fireball then run away. Then once they come back when bolt is off cooldown get close to them, wait for the casting message, bash them in the face (which cancels bolt) and inversion! That's almost another 35-40 damage. After that just melee them to death.

Look at the wiki, check mana costs for other classes and study them. Know your opponent.
In the end it us just knowing what to do. Each class has a strength and weakness.
@Keache
 

Keache

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Location
New Hampshire
Yeah, a lot of this post was thought out while I was sleepy. I think i'm going to redact a lot of this and just say that DK are op :3. In the end I am really disagreeing with most of what I said, ironically. Anyway, thanks for the feedback, everyone. I appreciate it.
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
I'm lazy atm, so know this: I solo'd a Pally today, then a Samurai, and I had the chance to wreck a DK, but I decided not to because I was rushing over to Oblivion (Where I then killed a 53 samurai who was just as well off as I was.) I think were fine where we are. If a caster wants to run, let him. No one will win and if he wants to get too close, rock him hard.

Remember: Potions give an edge and knowing when to use certain pots and certain skills is key. If you are not doing this, the class will look flawed.

(I meant no offense by this if in anyway it brought any. I really am just not in the mood to read and type.)
 

Sleaker

Retired Staff
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Portland, Oregon
3: Disable toggle run (while in combat). Toggle run does allow people to run while moving backwarsd, allowing casters to much more easily kite melee and use their abilities. Unless using abilities stops running for a brief while, there are no reprocussions for this and make it quite difficult for a meleer to do anything. If this was changed, kiting would be a bit harder and make it require more skill to pull off and require more dodging.

can't disable toggling of running since it's built into the MC code. not much we can do about it. Might just disable sprinting completely while in combat. that might help out with the issues.
 
Top