Suggestion Regarding Recent PvP Scarcities

[Tjundis]

There will always be a select few that make someone's experience poor, but one thing I've observed is that there's almost always someone to offer help or shelter. I myself built some free traps to keep raiders out of newbie's bases on two different occasions, and the first thing I always saw when someone called out for help were several people saying "Apply to a town, they'll keep you safe", and I would reckon about 90% of the time the person listened.

It may be hard for PvPers like myself to understand that other people would enjoy just levelling and building, yet there is evidently a demand for it. If we can keep these separate, I think they can coexist peacefully.

 

[Avoir]

Yeah lets make dozens of players quit by taking away the most popular world on Herocraft, just to please PvPers for 1 week before they find something else to complain about

/Sarcasm


Believe it or not, not the entire fucking community enjoys the "left-clicking other players" part of the game. Instead of trying to ruin for players who don't enjoy the same aspects of HC as you, come with suggestions that would make Aegis interesting enough to keep "all the PvPers" from emigrating to Sanctuary.

PVE and PVP both have the same amount of player base.

 

[MichaelRL]

The problem will always exist so long as the PvE world exists. No matter what changes you make to PvE, unless it is straight up "unviable" as a leveling strategy, it is going to be used over PvP. Why? Because people just don't feel like dealing with interruptions to the ever so boring and ever so tiresoeme Herocraft leveling experience.


And what Kainzo, and probably many others, don't understand, is that PvE is what drives the PvP of Herocraft, and always has. And that PvP is what drives a lot of the community aspects of Herocraft as a whole. Without a strong presence of PvP, there is very little reason for others to band together and become friends with other players.


========
Take for example this situation:
Player "Steven" is new to the server. He is a level 1 lost soul.
After a few hours, or perhaps a day or two, he manages to spec into a class that looks interesting to him.
He gets to level 15 or so, and has started to understand the tricks of leveling more quickly on HC.
OH SHIT! 360noscopeNerdKing just ganked the crap out of him and killed him in 2 seconds!

Well that sucks. He just lost all of his items (whoops sorry forgot HC wasn't hardcore anymore) and now he has to run all the way back to where he was before. Oh well, it happens.

OH SHIT! 360noscopeNerdKing has absolutely no life what so ever. Ganked again!~~

Steven is now very upset. He's considering quitting. Because he is 12 years old however, he must notify the world how he feels first.
/ch o
"Fucking no life bitch why don't you get a life"

Steven has been muted from [O] chat.

Steven is now really really upset.

But wait! Good Samaritan X is swooping in.

----Here's where things can split. Either
A) Steven is whispered by some random PvPer that wants to kill 360noscopeNerdKing, and asks him where he is.
Steven replies, thanks the random PvPer, and feels much better about his situation. If he's lucky, the player that whispered him will stick around for a while and provide some extra protection.

B) SuperZergTownX (LO) Whispers Steven and invites him to their zerg nation, where all noobs are protected with a nice little blanket.
LO then rushes to the area and ganks 360noscopeNerdKing with 10 people.
----

Regardless of the outcome, Steven has now witnessed that 360noscopeNerdKing is not invulnerable, and he too wishes to some day be that strong. Maybe he joins a zerg town, maybe he makes his own town, or maybe he stays a lone wolf, but establishes connections to various PvPers through whispers.
===========

And that's just one notable example, I could come up with a hundred more. I've just seen this particular example so many times that I feel it is the one most worth mentioning. Hell, it's how I fucking started on this server. I got ganked, I was pissed, I applied to a town, and learned the ropes from them. I was given a sense of wanting to become better at PvP, and that is what drove me to continue playing. I met a lot of different players, and eventually got invested enough to want to be a coder for the server.


The people that set it all in motion for me were @RoflcerOfDaLawl, @LafeD, and @Xerot. I, along with @Haunted9899, was ganked and robbed blind in our noob cave by these three players in Bastion. We were only level 15ish Rogues with barely any items. We were upset that it was so easy to be killed even though we thought we had chosen a good hiding place. Alas, we did not know of Track (or entity radar *cough*) This is what motivated us to join Umbra, and what caused me to gain such an interest in the server. We wanted to feel safe while we PvE'd our way to the top.

If I never got ganked, I would have never joined a town, and would have tried to create my own instead. If I did not become friends with the people in Umbra, I would have never stayed on this server as long as I did. You can confer from this that the classes you are all playing right now simply would not exist if I was not ganked as a noob.

This server needs PvP, even if it isn't the main focus of the server, as Kainzo likes to state. The PvP is what drives players to act the way they do, and play the way they do. But the PvE must exist for the PvP to exist. If you let the PvP die off by allowing the PvE world to exist, you're letting the HC as we all know it to die with it.

Unfortunately, I know Kainzo, and I know he will never remove the PvE world. Nor will he remove "SoulBound" items. He will not make the PvE world unviable, and he will continue to state that the PvP is not the priority of the server. The server will move forward, and some changes will undoubtedly be made (Perhaps even the ones suggested in the OP of this thread) But it won't solve the problem, and the improvements will be minor.

Simply put...your fates are sealed.

I'm letter b!

 

[Delfofthebla]

There will always be a select few that make someone's experience poor, but one thing I've observed is that there's almost always someone to offer help or shelter. I myself built some free traps to keep raiders out of newbie's bases on two different occasions, and the first thing I always saw when someone called out for help were several people saying "Apply to a town, they'll keep you safe", and I would reckon about 90% of the time the person listened.

It may be hard for PvPers like myself to understand that other people would enjoy just levelling and building, yet there is evidently a demand for it. If we can keep these separate, I think they can coexist peacefully.

Yeah lets make dozens of players quit by taking away the most popular world on Herocraft, just to please PvPers for 1 week before they find something else to complain about

/Sarcasm


Believe it or not, not the entire fucking community enjoys the "left-clicking other players" part of the game. Instead of trying to ruin for players who don't enjoy the same aspects of HC as you, come with suggestions that would make Aegis interesting enough to keep "all the PvPers" from emigrating to Sanctuary.

Well, duh.

If all this server was about was PvP then we'd just fucking cut out the middleman and make it a faction server. But it's not. Herocraft brings a unique blend of PvE and PvP together. Now, I'll say that the PvE "content" itself is practically nonexistent, and overall has only gotten worse with the changes to mob HP and map locations, but the fact of the matter is that PvE "exists", and it is a hurdle that must be overcome by the playerbase.

That, combined with the Towns plugin, creates some interesting dynamics. Players that are "not interested" in PvP can totally find a home here, and they are necessary to the server. I loved the existence of all the "builder towns" back in Bastion. They created interesting places to see, and even ended up creating cool places to fight in (whether that was by their will or not...)

There is also this inherent sense of style that comes with building towns in HC, especially for builder players. It's not just about creating something that "looks good". It's about creating a fortress that will protect it's members, while also looking good. That's not easy to do, and failure usually results in a lot of lost loot and possibly some spawn camping. I'm friends with people that have been in or are in builder towns. There is a completely different gameplay style available for them on this server.

Or at least, there was. Since the migration to PvE, I see very little of that now. In my opinion, If people just wanted to build, they'd fucking pop in some random creative server and go to town on it. People could enjoy HC building because of the dangers involved with it. Sure, a lot of the time people "just want to fucking build", but if they were able to always have that option, the server would surely grow stale.

Aside from the community itself, just what the flying fuck can Herocraft give a builder that another server can't? Right now? I can't see a damn thing. In the past? I can see tons. Now, I'm not a builder, so it's very possible I'm off point here. But from my perspective, this is how it all looks...


I would personally be in favor of Kainzo removing subclasses all together, and making players pick between one or the other. This would drive the above home even harder than before. It could provide a place for the "non PvPers" within every PvP town. (I hear it actually used to be this way) but meh, doubt that will happen.

 

[Xhazed]

Just lower everything on pve exp gains and money because what do u need in pve its not like you have to fight playerrs with skills you can only kill mobs and build and not even need the heros plugin in there

 

[RShooter2000]

Yeah lets make dozens of players quit by taking away the most popular world on Herocraft, just to please PvPers for 1 week before they find something else to complain about

/Sarcasm


Believe it or not, not the entire fucking community enjoys the "left-clicking other players" part of the game. Instead of trying to ruin for players who don't enjoy the same aspects of HC as you, come with suggestions that would make Aegis interesting enough to keep "all the PvPers" from emigrating to Sanctuary.

EDIT:

There have been a lot of threads hinting and saying that PvP is dying, and I'm just giving my thoughts and what I think are the reasons and (possible solutions for the future) behind why its dying, why level on PvP when you can sit and AFK/level in PvE all day with no worries? Why mine on PvP when you can mine on PvE and not worry about people tracking you? Why make a town on PvP when you can make it on PvE and build and AFK in it all day without worrying about dying? Why make a Personal Region in PvP when you can make it on PvE and never be camped/killed. See this is why PvP is dead, most people don't want to just PvP they only want things like medals.

With very few incentives to be on PvP there is a reason why no one is on it except for the very few people who are left who try to get PvP but can't find any.

This is also the reason why there are very few PvP groups, there isn't a reason to band together and fight, before you banded together to help prevent your friends from getting ganked/killed, now you just level and kill mobs all day on PvE, then you go back to your house on PvE, The only reason to band together is to try and get medals from conquest, which is hardly ever contested.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

In my opinion, If people just wanted to build, they'd fucking pop in some random creative server and go to town on it. People could enjoy HC building because of the dangers involved with it. Sure, a lot of the time people "just want to fucking build", but if they were able to always have that option, the server would surely grow stale.

I'm a non PvPer, so what attracts me to Herocraft? On reflection, Delf, you're right - "because of the dangers". While I hate getting hunted down and losing my items, the fear of it happening definitely added excitement to boring old mining or hanging around town.

I reckon the strong PvP focus was a key feature that attracted and/or retained BOTH PvPers and non-PvPers.

I'm really intrigued that (last time I checked) there were 30 regioned towns on Aegis and only 6 or so on Sanctuary. It seems that PvP has still been considered the "real" map. But even though my allegiance is to a town on the PvP map, I find myself hanging out mostly on PvE... What is there to attract me to the PvP map? To drive me there?

Sanctuary is in effect a resource map, it's just not FFA. We don't need another resource map, but we could sure do with some more havoc and mayhem .

I would personally be in favor of Kainzo removing subclasses all together, and making players pick between one or the other. This would drive the above home even harder than before. It could provide a place for the "non PvPers" within every PvP town. (I hear it actually used to be this way) but meh, doubt that will happen.

Do you mean you can only have one class? So you might be an Engineer or a Ninja or a Farmer or a Paladin?

I'm starting to agree with this . I reckon it would bring more interest if HC were to make some choices harder, not easier. Of course, there's a lot to consider here with Balance, but that's ok.

Now I have a comment that I'm guessing won't get a lot of love, lol...: I reckon the boosts are shortening the life of the map. Boosts enable active players to master multiple classes... and then what? What happens next when class mastery is so rapidly achieved? (And as for all the boost begging.... well, ). Boosts bring short-term satisfaction, and of course they bring necessary funds in for running the server, but I reckon they're knocking the guts out of the life of the map.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Do you mean you can only have one class? So you might be an Engineer or a Ninja or a Farmer or a Paladin?

I'm starting to agree with this . I reckon it would bring more interest if HC were to make some choices harder, not easier. Of course, there's a lot to consider here with Balance, but that's ok.

Now I have a comment that I'm guessing won't get a lot of love, lol...: I reckon the boosts are shortening the life of the map. Boosts enable active players to master multiple classes... and then what? What happens next when class mastery is so rapidly achieved? (And as for all the boost begging.... well, ). Boosts bring short-term satisfaction, and of course they bring necessary funds in for running the server, but I reckon they're knocking the guts out of the life of the map.

Correct. Indeed there is a lot to consider with balancing, but I think it creates an interesting dynamic between the players, and gives the "non PvP focused" player more fulfillment. It would be worth it if Kainzo actually planned to push the idea of it happening.

And yeah, I agree you on boosts. However, that mostly stems from a lack of real enjoyable PvE content. People just want to push through it because it's so boring for them. I could even see boosts being removed all together if we actually had fun content to churn through.

 

[MariusAbyssal]

Though I doubt boost will be removed since it's a big source of income to the server I would like to see it happen.

Regarding PVE and PVP I think both need worthwhile objectives and challenges, if your gonna tell me people play minecraft for the pvp I think you would be in the minority. And if you want more server pop ( so cities/capitals/kingdoms actually make sence ) , then I believe the target audience is people who already play minecraft ( and the ones that play minecraft for the pvp probably allready do it on another server and are more reluctant to join), thus people that like the pve and building and crafting.

I think the way to bring people to the server is through quality builds and pve content and then you can bait them/ ease them into pvp with interesting pvp objectives, ofc people would need time for that to happen that's why I think boost are a deterrent to that. And ofc we would simply need more objectives (ala quests and dungeons, conquest and tournaments, bosses and mob variety ). I understand that this is pretty hard to do without a required client modpack. I would also go for some more interesting rewards for pvp maybe some random pvpcrate (ala loot crates) that rewards some unique pets / titles that you can only get from these pvpcrates.

 

[Jrr_]

The fact that you can master a class in 5 hours is crazy as hell.

 

[SurvivalManZ]

I joined Herocraft almost a year ago, and I saddens me to feel that not many people are enjoying it as much as I am. The scarcity of people makes it harder to go adventure for kills or for houses to raid. Here are my ideas:

PvE is unnecessary!: I feel that the PvE world is unnecessary. My solution is for newer players to get Protection, like I've seen in many a Faction server. They could go to PvP, but they could not be attacked for, oh lets say, a few days. It gives them enough time to spec, unless they're complete idiots. Then, the Protection would leave them, and they'd be free to enjoy the game's full intensity. Here comes the next phase of this idea:

No profit for nublets: Another great idea is for noobs who have spec'd to have absolutely no profit from death by players. Until they pass lvl 32 or so, any player who kills them get's absolutely nothing except the dropped items,(which most players don't care for anyway.) No chance of Medals, Exp, or KDR. It would make killing random noobs unappealing.

Knowing Herocraftians, this post is going to be deleted by negative ratings. But I don't care, I've said what I feel.

 

[Xargun]

Do you mean you can only have one class? So you might be an Engineer or a Ninja or a Farmer or a Paladin?

I'm starting to agree with this . I reckon it would bring more interest if HC were to make some choices harder, not easier. Of course, there's a lot to consider here with Balance, but that's ok.

This could work if all 'crafter' classes were buffed. Give them attribute points and maybe a couple combat related powers - smith would get something like 'Strength of the Anvil' which would increase his strength - thus melee damage for a short period. Crafters shouldn't be completely defenseless... but 1v1 between a pvp class and a crafter, the crafter should lose most times. A lot of balancing would be needed, but its very possible. Not sure how much 'new' coding would be required, but it shouldn't be much. Make parties max of 5 pvp AND 5 crafters (if possible) so if you want to really fight, you bring both combat spec and others... give all the boosting powers to crafters and maybe some minor healing (a farmer would be like a weak druid, smith like a weak berserker, enchanter a weak wizard, etc...).

Very interesting idea...

 

[Fjordsen]

This could work if all 'crafter' classes were buffed. Give them attribute points and maybe a couple combat related powers - smith would get something like 'Strength of the Anvil' which would increase his strength - thus melee damage for a short period. Crafters shouldn't be completely defenseless... but 1v1 between a pvp class and a crafter, the crafter should lose most times. A lot of balancing would be needed, but its very possible. Not sure how much 'new' coding would be required, but it shouldn't be much. Make parties max of 5 pvp AND 5 crafters (if possible) so if you want to really fight, you bring both combat spec and others... give all the boosting powers to crafters and maybe some minor healing (a farmer would be like a weak druid, smith like a weak berserker, enchanter a weak wizard, etc...).

Very interesting idea...

This already existed until Dragongarde, so it's definitely possible.

 

[SurvivalManZ]

I joined Herocraft almost a year ago, and I saddens me to feel that not many people are enjoying it as much as I am. The scarcity of people makes it harder to go adventure for kills or for houses to raid. Here are my ideas:

PvE is unnecessary!: I feel that the PvE world is unnecessary. My solution is for newer players to get Protection, like I've seen in many a Faction server. They could go to PvP, but they could not be attacked for, oh lets say, a few days. It gives them enough time to spec, unless they're complete idiots. Then, the Protection would leave them, and they'd be free to enjoy the game's full intensity. Here comes the next phase of this idea:

No profit for nublets: Another great idea is for noobs who have spec'd to have absolutely no profit from death by players. Until they pass lvl 32 or so, any player who kills them get's absolutely nothing except the dropped items,(which most players don't care for anyway.) No chance of Medals, Exp, or KDR. It would make killing random noobs unappealing.

Knowing Herocraftians, this post is going to be deleted by negative ratings. But I don't care, I've said what I feel.

Nooooo. @EtKEnn disliked my post! This is the end of life as we know it!

 

[Faunherer]

You guys need to understand that PVP and PVE have roughly the same server populations. One is not going to be favored over the other. I prefer playing in PVP for the PVP. I prefer playing in PVE for building and getting together with people. I am fine leveling in both. Making PVE less viable would probably push people from PVE to PVP, but what people would that be? It would be the people who do not want to PVP.

That will not create more PVP, that will create more noob ganking, but I guess to you guys that doesn't matter because most people just care about their KD.

Edit: Ideas to increase PVP:
elimination of residences in PVP to encourage people to join towns or sides (and because residences are quite broken, and don't quite fit in with the risk vs. reward attitude of PVP).

creation of township fortresses, where a township can capture the fort, it then spawns guards (iron golems, mobs, etc) that don't attack the town members but attacks all others. If a town controls a fort they get a certain bonus. These will be like 'extended' conquest points, they don't reset and they are much more difficult to capture.

Increase the party cap. PVP is infinitely more fun when it is a chaotic orgy of 10v10.

Shift PVP focus away from towns, they are supposed to be safe spots where building and bureaucracy blooms. Instead, focus it on the controllable points, like the township fortresses above.

bring back the old mechanic where you cannot damage a town member, or kd member, unless in a mutually accepted duel.

Ideas that will not increase PVP:
completely severing PVP from PVE. Most players don't join HC and go straight to PVP. The reason why is because we are a lot of dick lords and we spawn camp them to misery, causing them to quit. If there is going to be any growth to PVP, it is going to have to come from PVE. If you sever the two worlds, people from PVE will be less likely to join PVP, because all their material worth will be in PVE. We need to make incentive for people to join the PVP world from PVE. Heroes is already a great incentive (it gets boring using all your fancy skills on zombies, it's nice to test them on people).

 

[LightningCape]

We don't want another shrine map. You know, the PvE map no one used. The main reason for that was because it was hell to live in as you were 100% alone and you were crazy if you tried to lvl there. Kinda like Forgelight in bastion. Removing PvE isn't the solution Imo.

 

[Xhazed]

I mean why would people on pve give a single f to master their classes they wount need to use it unlinke in PVP so redusing exp gains souls and what not wount make a diff in PVE. For the hardcore pver....

 

[Delfofthebla]

PvE is unnecessary!: I feel that the PvE world is unnecessary. My solution is for newer players to get Protection, like I've seen in many a Faction server. They could go to PvP, but they could not be attacked for, oh lets say, a few days.

I suggested this numerous times in the past to Kainzo or other staff directly.

My suggestion was to use a dual system. They either get somewhere between 24 and 72 hours of "PvP protection" OR, if they reached say, max level lost soul, the protection would be revoked. (At the time of the suggestion it was max level pre-spec class, which was 30 for either Rogue, Healer, Caster, or Warrior.)

After the timed protection had "expired", it would not matter what level you were, your protection would be revoked.

This was a double sided suggestion that addressed multiple issues.
1) Players that were "abusing the system" by staying level 1 or constantly /hero resetting would no longer be able to bypass PvP.
2) Players that were actually new to the server would be protected until they at least had one foot in the door.

the idea fell on Deaf ears...

Now I don't think there is a "level requirement" for being able to be protected from PvP anymore, but that's because it was "fixed" by the addition of the PvE server. Can't say I'm a fan of the outcome.

 

[Delfofthebla]

That will not create more PVP, that will create more noob ganking, but I guess to you guys that doesn't matter because most people just care about their KD.

I prefer to look at it as a "necessary evil", but, contrary to your statement, noob ganking is very much a proprietor of PvP, and it has nothing to do with people stacking their KD. It is probably about that for the person that is doing the noob ganking, sure, but what about those that gank the ganker? What about those that jump to help noobs at every chance they get? And have you ever considered how the potential of "losing all of their stuff" affects how the noob acts later on the server?

There are people on this server that genuinely want to help and protect newer players. There are people on this server that just like challenging PvP, and wish to fight anyone that can give them a fair fight. There are people that do nothing but noob camp and there are people that do not participate in PvP at all.

My point throughout this entire thread is that you need those assholes and noob campers to give a sense of danger and uncertainty to the playerbase. You need those that are "not douchebags" to band together and form alliances. You want the community to connect with each other. It's this act of coming together as a "team" that makes Herocraft what it is.

If there is no danger, if their is no "chance of loss", if their are no possibilities for an "un-fun experience", you will not get any of this. You will just end up with a server where everyone does their own thing at their own pace. A server where everyone quickly grinds through the boring Herocraft leveling experience and then gets bored.

The simple existence of players that "do not want to PvP" is what fuels the fires of community collaboration. It's all centered around that risk of loss. You don't want to be ganked while levelling. You do not want to be ganked while mining. You don't want to be ganked while building. The needs of avoiding these risks is what brings towns (and the players within them) together. If everything is ez-pz and you get to max level with no troubles, just what is drawing you to the server?

 

[Tjundis]

@Delfofthebla I couldn't have said it better than that last paragraph.

@Faunherer Adding more objectives won't give herocraft the unique style it had back, it will make it akin to pvp gamemodes on other servers.
If there is no reason to build towns or mine or level on the PvP server, there's no conflict or uniting force that brings people together within it; this is why the worlds must be completely separate, or one.