Suggestion Regarding Recent PvP Scarcities

[Tjundis]

Hello everyone,

There have been several posts recently regarding the impact of the PvE world on the PvP world, and how PvP has declined. That being said, this post will be about how the PvE world could still exist and be a fulfilling safehaven, while encouraging people that look for more excitement through raiding, mining riches, or spontaneous fights, to venture into PvP.

It seems to me that several changes occured to the herocraft world before the PvP/PvE split, to make the server less chaotic and unwelcoming to creative people as well as new players. Changes like these made raiding harder to near impossible, and in pursuit of PvP I believe this made people like miners, levellers, or those currently building towns larger targets.

I don't believe anyone should be killed repeatedly while trying to reach a higher level to defend themselves, and I believe that it was part of the reason the PvE server was created. It originally came as a separate entity from the PvP server, where items were said to be non-transferable and experience gains were decreased in sacrifice of safety. However, your experience gains in the PvP world would most likely be equal due to time spent dead.

It was decided that PvE xp gains would be equal to that of PvP, and most people looking to level up or gain souls would simply move to the safety of the PvE world, and I do agree that this impacted PvP activity. However, there have been too many cases in which a safe levelling spot that doesn't feel unrewarding is necessary.

I believe there are some that love a little bit of chaos and drama, and maps like Dragongarde provided it generously. Raids occured often, on other towns as well as mine. The issues of newer players becoming frustrated was still present, yet the population of players who had lived through the levelling/adjustment phase remained high and stable.

PvP population had thrived and I believe it is capable of continuing despite a PvE server.

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Here's my main point:

Now that the PvE server has been introduced, I believe that several changes intended to make the one world more tolerable have persisted and watered-down what is now the PvP server.

There have been steps in the right direction, such as capture points, to bring incentive for the PvP world. I would suggest that, in addition, that some older changes be reverted to take PvP to where it was.

Here are my suggestions:

- Continue to enforce no domes or complete roofs on buildings in the PvP world.

- Allow mark & recall but NOT rune-stones in regions that you do not own.
(Especially necessary for towns built to be impenetrable and completely unraidable! I've spent hours trying to find holes in regions in the past. and it's really not worth any time at all if you come in at the wrong time.)

- Remove interaction denial in personal regions, they should not become free LWC zones for the sake of aesthetics.

- Adjust the drop rate of souls from mobs and ores to be higher in both the upcoming FFA world as well as the PvP world.
(Keep xp rates the same so newer players can prepare themselves before venturing into the PvP world.)

- (New) Truly split the map between PvP and PvE on next wipe, no XP, item, or money carry-overs.

I would be ecstatic to see even some of those changes happen, and for those that would hate to see these changes in the PvE world, there should be no problems should they be restricted to the PvP server only.
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I would love to have experiences similar to other maps once again, and It is very much possible now with the PvE map providing necessary securities. For those that read this far, I thank you.

 

[BlackOhso]

mhm

 

[MariusAbyssal]

I don't believe higher drop chance for souls on pvp is the solution to this.
I think conquest was a start in a good direction with pvp being promoted through pvp event-type tools (granted it still needs a lot more work).

As for residences I would remove them completely, at least from pvp, the more I think and the more threads I read about residences I come to realize that there's really no point to having them.

- We already have lwcs to protect loot, and griefing is illegal so people have a house.
- We have towns to provide protection and a safe haven.
- I don't believe it necessary for each player to have their own personal safe haven on the map wherever they wish it to be.
- I don't agree to though to just removing the use flag, how does that help in any way?​

I'm not a fan of the mark/recall in areas where you cannot build. I would personally even go as far as to remove the use flag from non-town members, I believe a town should be a safe haven for people and raids/pvp should be fought over conquest points / land outside of towns. Though I do agree that there should be more things to do other than conquest maybe weekly town wars where people could fight for some bonuses. This will add to the incentive of being in a town. Maybe this would be open to only pvp towns.

My ideea for towns (that would have to be done on a different map) is to have the map split into a sort of conquest areas and you could only make a town in an area once the clan that you're a part of controls it (thus securing the area). These conquest areas would not provide any more rewards other than the ability to make a town in the vicinity. There could be a similar system on pve where you'd have to fight waves of spawning mobs(that provide no exp) untill you cleanse the area ( and it resets after lets say one day ) and then you can build a town in the vicinity. I could elaborate more on this + coding if people show interest.

In conclusion in my opinion towns should be a safe haven for people ( one that is not easy to obtain ) and pvp should be promoted not through the raid of town but through event-type objectives like the conquest.

 

[Fjordsen]

Discriminating between PvE and PvP is not the way to go. I don't see how increasing soul drops would make Aegis any more fun for you PvPers in the first place, more lucrative perhaps but it wouldn't create more PvP.

I agree with all your other suggestions though, especially the Mark&Recall suggestion. One of the fun things in DG was having to track down enemy marks inside your city, and it allowed for better wars between towns since raiding could actually be rewarding. Being able to get into towns is just so important for player interaction in diplomacy, which is why both marking inside towns and removal of domes/boxes needs to be done. Being at war actually meant something when you had to fight for hours against enemies who kept recalling and GTPing into your town.

 

[Dsawemd]

Here's my theory on PvP "scarcity" oh and btw it's right, I have many PHDs.

There was no major (5 or 6 hour) boost bought for about a week and a half maybe two. People were happy to stay max level, and pvp.

Then Rumble (I believe) bought a major boost, and many people after the boost were left not maxed, both veteran and new player alike. The new players kept leveling, while the non-maxed veterans logged off, only checking sporadically if there was a boost. The maxed veterans took to Ooc Chat, to troll and moan about how none of their friends wanted to play and pvp was slowing down.

This, combined with many of the "charismatic troll leaders" being banned has lead to a lack of traditional pvp groups.
As new boosts fill the void, things will stabilize.

@Kainzo Now/Soon is the time to develop the "Pay 5$ or 10$ toward the Ultra-Boost" method on the store. These Communal Ultra-Boosts would not grant Boost Titles or the Major Boost Pet as they do when bought alone. This would allow players in both the new and veteran community to plan their boosts without relying on uncertain solo-buyers.
I understand that some people might hesitate to donate towards a boost when they are not sure if it will reach the goal before they log out, but that will incentivize them to stay on for longer anyways. It would not take much organization in chat to reach 50$ or even 100$, especially since everyone is in Teamspeak servers together playing LoL etc.

 

[Kainzo]

Here's my theory on PvP "scarcity" oh and btw it's right, I have many PHDs.

There was no major (5 or 6 hour) boost bought for about a week and a half maybe two. People were happy to stay max level, and pvp.

Then Rumble (I believe) bought a major boost, and many people after the boost were left not maxed, both veteran and new player alike. The new players kept leveling, while the non-maxed veterans logged off, only checking sporadically if there was a boost. The maxed veterans took to Ooc Chat, to troll and moan about how none of their friends wanted to play and pvp was slowing down.

This, combined with many of the "charismatic troll leaders" being banned has lead to a lack of traditional pvp groups.
As new boosts fill the void, things will stabilize.

@Kainzo Now/Soon is the time to develop the "Pay 5$ or 10$ toward the Ultra-Boost" method on the store. These Communal Ultra-Boosts would not grant Boost Titles or the Major Boost Pet as they do when bought alone. This would allow players in both the new and veteran community to plan their boosts without relying on uncertain solo-buyers.
I understand that some people might hesitate to donate towards a boost when they are not sure if it will reach the goal before they log out, but that will incentivize them to stay on for longer anyways. It would not take much organization in chat to reach 50$ or even 100$, especially since everyone is in Teamspeak servers together playing LoL etc.

The "communal" boost has been requested several times - the devs just arent interested in doing it or it just takes too much time for them to make it happen with buycraft

 

[Dakinara]

I wish pvp server would just turn into a crazy world domination map where we can conquer each others town with regenerating regions and such.

Will never happen, but with pve world option it would be nice if pvp world was a crazy clusterfuck of constant chaos >>.

 

[Dsawemd]

The "communal" boost has been requested several times - the devs just arent interested in doing it or it just takes too much time for them to make it happen with buycraft

Oh, I thought we had an implementation using Tip Jar that would work. Since it would be mildly difficult to plan to have an active Admin on to manually start each boost, what about once the Tip Jar reaches 250$ there is a 24 hour 50% boost? Numbers are examples.

Communal boost is just one way to solve the "Log in. Boost? No? Log out" issue among vets. Another is content updates, but communal boost that avoids buycraft devs by using our trustworthy active upper staff would be a faster attempt at a fix.

 

[0xNaomi]

The "communal" boost has been requested several times - the devs just arent interested in doing it or it just takes too much time for them to make it happen with buycraft

Who says it can't be initiated with buycraft and managed on our side...?

Oh, I thought we had an implementation using Tip Jar that would work. Since it would be mildly difficult to plan to have an active Admin on to manually start each boost, what about once the Tip Jar reaches 250$ there is a 24 hour 50% boost? Numbers are examples.

Communal boost is just one way to solve the "Log in. Boost? No? Log out" issue among vets. Another is content updates, but communal boost that avoids buycraft devs by using our trustworthy active upper staff would be a faster attempt at a fix.

You can very well do it automatically. Only thing I see is server crashing and potential loss of data on WHERE the numbers are.

 

[Tjundis]

@MariusAbyssal Removing the use flag allows some residences to be raided. Since writing the original post I have come across a residence with a region hole that might have been raided if not for the use flag. About the towns, PvE is the true safe haven, towns do provide protection in the forms of walls, and I can guarantee that if roofs are not allowed there will be undercities anyway. Towns have protected almost all of their goods in the past, and will continue to do so. Part of the fun and reason for raiding is to actually raid the town and it's few unlocked chests, and it gives the defenders a reason to protect it.

I do like the idea of capturable areas for towns, but for right now I think it would be a quicker fix to simply make some rule reversions.

@EtKEnn The reasoning behind the increased rates, although maybe not the best solution, is that people might be more likely to group up and head to the PvP world for mining excursions. FFA resource maps like warshard have always brought groups of people looking to hunt others or defend each other while they mined, and it always led to PvP.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that would like to see these things.

 

[MariusAbyssal]

@Tjundis And are you sure you found that residence like that for the exact reason that the use is disabled and if you could raid it then you wouldn't have found a residence like that. Also how is it enjoyable getting a few stacks of cobble / useless mats since towns will be careful with their valuable materials, same thing applies to residences.

 

[Tjundis]

@MariusAbyssal As someone who dedicated most of their time to raiding, you would be surprised how many people don't have enough room in their lwcs for the vast amounts of items they have acquired. Looting chests is probably one of the more fun parts of raiding for me and many others.

A few lwcs is more than enough item protection for anyone, and the ability to simply put a block over chests is overkill. If a town does carry off a large amount of valuable items from your town, I think most people would prefer to counter-raid for a chance to reclaim it rather than having the enemy town ferry it off to a personal region full of free LWCs.

 

[Delfofthebla]

The problem will always exist so long as the PvE world exists. No matter what changes you make to PvE, unless it is straight up "unviable" as a leveling strategy, it is going to be used over PvP. Why? Because people just don't feel like dealing with interruptions to the ever so boring and ever so tiresoeme Herocraft leveling experience.


And what Kainzo, and probably many others, don't understand, is that PvE is what drives the PvP of Herocraft, and always has. And in turn, that PvP is what drives a lot of the community aspects of Herocraft as a whole. Without a strong presence of PvP, there is very little reason for others to band together and become friends with other players.


========
Take for example this situation:
Player "Steven" is new to the server. He is a level 1 lost soul.
After a few hours, or perhaps a day or two, he manages to spec into a class that looks interesting to him.
He gets to level 15 or so, and has started to understand the tricks of leveling more quickly on HC.
OH SHIT! 360noscopeNerdKing just ganked the crap out of him and killed him in 2 seconds!

Well that sucks. He just lost all of his items (whoops sorry forgot HC wasn't hardcore anymore) and now he has to run all the way back to where he was before. Oh well, it happens.

OH SHIT! 360noscopeNerdKing has absolutely no life what so ever. Ganked again!~~

Steven is now very upset. He's considering quitting. However, because he is 12 years old, he must notify the world how he feels before doing so.

/ch o
"Fucking no life bitch why don't you get a life"

Steven has been muted from [O] chat.
Steven is now really really upset.

But wait! Good Samaritan X is swooping in.

----Here's where things can split. Either
A) Steven is whispered by some random PvPer that wants to kill 360noscopeNerdKing, and asks him where he is.
Steven then replies, thanks the random PvPer, and feels much better about his situation. If he's lucky, the player that whispered him will stick around for a while and provide some extra protection.

OR

B) SuperZergTownX (LO) Whispers Steven and invites him to their zerg nation, where all noobs are protected with a nice little blanket.
LO then rushes to the area and ganks 360noscopeNerdKing with 10 people.
----

Regardless of the outcome, Steven has now witnessed that 360noscopeNerdKing is not invulnerable, and he too wishes to some day be that strong. Maybe he joins a zerg town, maybe he makes his own town, or maybe he stays a lone wolf, but establishes connections to various PvPers through whispers.
===========

And that's just one notable example, I could come up with a hundred more. I've just seen this particular example so many times that I feel it is the one most worth mentioning. Hell, it's how I fucking started on this server. I got ganked, I was pissed, I applied to a town, and learned the ropes from them. I was given a sense of wanting to become better at PvP, and that is what drove me to continue playing. I met a lot of different players, and eventually got invested enough to want to be a coder for the server.


The people that set it all in motion for me were @RoflcerOfDaLawl, @LafeD, and @Xerot. I, along with @Haunted9899, was ganked and robbed blind in our noob cave by these three players in Bastion. We were only level 15ish Rogues with barely any items. We were upset that it was so easy to be killed even though we thought we had chosen a good hiding place. Alas, we did not know of Track (or entity radar *cough*) This is what motivated us to join Umbra, and what caused me to gain such an interest in the server. We wanted to feel safe while we PvE'd our way to the top.

If I never got ganked, I would have never joined a town, and would have tried to create my own instead. If I did not become friends with the people in Umbra, I would have never stayed on this server as long as I did. You can confer from this that the classes you are all playing right now simply would not exist if I was not ganked as a noob.

This server needs PvP, even if it isn't the main focus of the server, as Kainzo likes to state. The PvP is what drives players to act the way they do, and play the way they do. But the PvE must exist for the PvP to exist. If you let the PvP die off by allowing the PvE world to exist, you're letting the HC as we all know it to die with it.

Unfortunately, I know Kainzo, and I know he will never remove the PvE world. Nor will he remove "SoulBound" items. He will not make the PvE world unviable, and he will continue to state that the PvP is not the priority of the server. The server will move forward, and some changes will undoubtedly be made (Perhaps even the ones suggested in the OP of this thread) But it won't solve the problem, and the improvements will be minor.

Simply put...your fates are sealed.

 

[Tjundis]

@Delfofthebla You raise some very valid points, it seems to me that even though a number of people quit because of ganking annoyances, a larger portion stayed, and some merely complained about it, as it was a problem whilst building.

Even though I believe the server would function fine with only PvP (as it has in the past), scrapping the PvE world before the next wipe would seem understandably out of the question.

Instead I propose this:

We can adjust what we can now, and increase the appeal of the PvP server. If you have any other suggestions on how one could accomplish this simply and effectively, please share.

In the long term, I would suggest a test. Upon map wipe, make the PvE server a completely separate server, from which levels and money would not carry over.

From my understanding, Kainzo simply wants players from both styles to play on and enjoy Herocraft. If players want to RP, fight mobs, and create towns unbothered, they will play on the PvE server with like-minded people. If players want to raid, defend their towns (I love traps), and unite through dynamic conflicts, they will play on the PvP server.

I'm fairly certain that if this occurred, a good portion of the PvP population would be restored due to old players becoming interested again and the extra excitement enticing those from the PvE server, while builders and those looking for peace would stay or go between servers. If Kainzo deemed it unsuccessful, it could be reverted afterwards.

If players want to PvE without leaving the server, by all means give them a place to do so, but allow avid PvPers the same courtesy by providing them the old PvP world where you fight for your levels, resources and towns.

 

[Paul_Bakken]

The thing is... Any time that people have the option to move away to someplace where the annoying people aren't... they will tend to do that. This is sort of how it works in real life, too.

 

[pure_autism]

@Delfofthebla You raise some very valid points, it seems to me that even though a number of people quit because of ganking annoyances, a larger portion stayed, and some merely complained about it, as it was a problem whilst building.

Even though I believe the server would function fine with only PvP (as it has in the past), scrapping the PvE world before the next wipe would seem understandably out of the question.

Instead I propose this:

We can adjust what we can now, and increase the appeal of the PvP server. If you have any other suggestions on how one could accomplish this simply and effectively, please share.

In the long term, I would suggest a test. Upon map wipe, make the PvE server a completely separate server, from which levels and money would not carry over.

From my understanding, Kainzo simply wants players from both styles to play on and enjoy Herocraft. If players want to RP, fight mobs, and create towns unbothered, they will play on the PvE server with like-minded people. If players want to raid, defend their towns (I love traps), and unite through dynamic conflicts, they will play on the PvP server.

I'm fairly certain that if this occurred, a good portion of the PvP population would be restored due to old players becoming interested again and the extra excitement enticing those from the PvE server, while builders and those looking for peace would stay or go between servers. If Kainzo deemed it unsuccessful, it could be reverted afterwards.

If players want to PvE without leaving the server, by all means give them a place to do so, but allow avid PvPers the same courtesy by providing them the old PvP world where you fight for your levels, resources and towns.

I like this idea. Last map, Shrine could have worked out, had it not been generated in Amplified terrain. The problem was, there were probably 8 active people that played on the server because no one wanted to navigate the hellish terrain.

If money and items didn't transfer between worlds and the terrain wasn't slower to get around in than the Nether, the people who don't like fighting could live in PvE and the people who do would stay in PvP.

This is just my take on this, I'm sure some of you will agree and that many of you will disagree with me.

 

[MariusAbyssal]

@Delfofthebla
C) No one whispers Steven and he quits.

This is how I started too but I'm not sure that many players would stick @ after getting ganked over and over by higher lvl people.

 

[RShooter2000]

@Delfofthebla You raise some very valid points, it seems to me that even though a number of people quit because of ganking annoyances, a larger portion stayed, and some merely complained about it, as it was a problem whilst building.

Even though I believe the server would function fine with only PvP (as it has in the past), scrapping the PvE world before the next wipe would seem understandably out of the question.

Instead I propose this:

We can adjust what we can now, and increase the appeal of the PvP server. If you have any other suggestions on how one could accomplish this simply and effectively, please share.

In the long term, I would suggest a test. Upon map wipe, make the PvE server a completely separate server, from which levels and money would not carry over.

From my understanding, Kainzo simply wants players from both styles to play on and enjoy Herocraft. If players want to RP, fight mobs, and create towns unbothered, they will play on the PvE server with like-minded people. If players want to raid, defend their towns (I love traps), and unite through dynamic conflicts, they will play on the PvP server.

I'm fairly certain that if this occurred, a good portion of the PvP population would be restored due to old players becoming interested again and the extra excitement enticing those from the PvE server, while builders and those looking for peace would stay or go between servers. If Kainzo deemed it unsuccessful, it could be reverted afterwards.

If players want to PvE without leaving the server, by all means give them a place to do so, but allow avid PvPers the same courtesy by providing them the old PvP world where you fight for your levels, resources and towns.

I don't understand why you would just want to kill mobs all day on a seperate server, and lets be honest no one ever RPs. I agree with Delf the only way to fix PvP is to get rid of the PvE server even though that will never happen, I understand the whole theres a server for everyone, but who will actually stay on PvE and never go to PvP? The vast majority of players go to PvE to level then to fight on PvP, but while this is happening, while PvPers are leveling on PvE there is less PvP, its one big loop that destroys one server. It should really just be like it used to be with just one PvP server and no PvE.

 

[Delfofthebla]

@Delfofthebla
C) No one whispers Steven and he quits.

This is how I started too but I'm not sure that many players would stick @ after getting ganked over and over by higher lvl people.

I won't deny that that is a possibility. It's definitely happened tons of times before.

But that's the problem, isn't it? You don't want this player to quit. You want all players to be comfortable and happy forever. And you can do things (like create a PvE only server) to baby these people and ensure that they are satisfied.

However these are the type of people that are the least loyal to the server. They're only here to "check things out". Maybe they have some fun, maybe they drop $5 on the server, or maybe, regardless of anyone elses actions, they quit after 5 days.

The "cost" of carrying these low willed players is very high. Just look at the PvP scene right now. Herocraft has undoubtedly moved towards catering to PvE players in the recent year.
1) Equipment no longer drops on death.
2) A separate PvE server with no risk of PvP deaths was created
3) Regions are now safe from "looting" due to plugins on the server side.

These are HUGE changes.
1) There is almost no reward for a PvP kill anymore.
2) There are much fewer chances to even GET a PvP kill anymore.
3) There is no motivation to try and "raid a town", as you are not only barred from entry, but barred from capitalizing on the mistakes of your enemies.

All of this "noob protection" has singled out the PvP community. Sure, there's that objective plugin that was added, but that's not the same thing as live world PvP. The "sense of accomplishment" for that objective is much different than the ones that were removed by the server's other changes.

You can definitely argue that the PvP players push away noobs and cause people to quit the server. But at the same time, these PvPers are the players that actually want to stick around. It all comes down to what you care about more: "Unique Server Logins" or "Loyal Players".

@Delfofthebla You raise some very valid points, it seems to me that even though a number of people quit because of ganking annoyances, a larger portion stayed, and some merely complained about it, as it was a problem whilst building.

Even though I believe the server would function fine with only PvP (as it has in the past), scrapping the PvE world before the next wipe would seem understandably out of the question.

Instead I propose this:

We can adjust what we can now, and increase the appeal of the PvP server. If you have any other suggestions on how one could accomplish this simply and effectively, please share.

In the long term, I would suggest a test. Upon map wipe, make the PvE server a completely separate server, from which levels and money would not carry over.

From my understanding, Kainzo simply wants players from both styles to play on and enjoy Herocraft. If players want to RP, fight mobs, and create towns unbothered, they will play on the PvE server with like-minded people. If players want to raid, defend their towns (I love traps), and unite through dynamic conflicts, they will play on the PvP server.

I'm fairly certain that if this occurred, a good portion of the PvP population would be restored due to old players becoming interested again and the extra excitement enticing those from the PvE server, while builders and those looking for peace would stay or go between servers. If Kainzo deemed it unsuccessful, it could be reverted afterwards.

If players want to PvE without leaving the server, by all means give them a place to do so, but allow avid PvPers the same courtesy by providing them the old PvP world where you fight for your levels, resources and towns.

I definitely agree that making PvE and PvP separate entities is the way to go. And, that's how it was supposed to have been implemented. When Kainzo first told me about the PvE world, he told me it would have severely reduced experience gain, and money / items would not transfer between servers. You know what that meant? It meant the PvE server was unviable. Unviability is one of those conditions I mentioned being necessary for it to not burden the server. As long as the majority of PvPers and builders find the PvE server to be a waste of time it will not affect the state of the server. This is a good thing.

Unfortunately, this is not the reality. I think Shrine on Haven actually worked this way, but I can't imagine traffic was very high. This is probably why the changes were made for this map: A desire to increase traffic.

Bad move...

 

[Fjordsen]

I don't understand why you would just want to kill mobs all day on a seperate server, and lets be honest no one ever RPs. I agree with Delf the only way to fix PvP is to get rid of the PvE server even though that will never happen, I understand the whole theres a server for everyone, but who will actually stay on PvE and never go to PvP? The vast majority of players go to PvE to level then to fight on PvP, but while this is happening, while PvPers are leveling on PvE there is less PvP, its one big loop that destroys one server. It should really just be like it used to be with just one PvP server and no PvE.

Yeah lets make dozens of players quit by taking away the most popular world on Herocraft, just to please PvPers for 1 week before they find something else to complain about

/Sarcasm


Believe it or not, not the entire fucking community enjoys the "left-clicking other players" part of the game. Instead of trying to ruin for players who don't enjoy the same aspects of HC as you, come with suggestions that would make Aegis interesting enough to keep "all the PvPers" from emigrating to Sanctuary.



Edit: @Trazil - Feels good to give negative ratings without even replying to the post innit?