Suggestion Rebalance of Allocation Points

[Davoguha]

Hello everyone.

Let me start by first noting that I am curious is this has been considered before, and what decision was made and why. (Being rather new to this server, I am unsure)

Anyways, my idea is to re-structure the diminishing returns on the Allocation point system, to allow for more stat points overall to be distributed. Right now, the diminishing returns is scaled such that every 10th point costs 4 more allocation points (10=4,20=8,30=12,40=16, etc) I would propose to reduce the scaling possibly as far as half of that, 10/2. or perhaps 10/3 (As I am aware a large change in points could potentially require a lot of rescaling)

I suggest this because I hold a firm belief that a greater distribution of stat points will result in a wider variety of customization for classes.

If this idea were to be implemented, there are a handful of areas where additional scaling may need to be changed. Personally, I like to keep things simple, as any unbalances wont truly be noticed until things are implemented. As such, I would make the following suggestions.

ASSUMING We go from a 10/4 scale to a 10/2 scale, I would encourage the following adjustments:
Additional Damage/effect/timing granted from Attributes pertaining to skills, reduce by approx. 33%
Reduce the gain from endurance to 0.5 (this also "cleans" up the armor system, by getting rid of the "extra" .25s and .75s)
Reduce speed increase from agility to .25 per point
Increase Health Gain from Const. to 10 points per point and magic resistance to .5 per point (Personally I find const. to be virtually useless as it is currently set anyway.)
Increase mana gain from intellect to 10 (same boat as const, aside from skill damage, int is almost pointless)
Wisdom can stay the same (increase in points available makes investing a reasonable amount into regen feasible)
Scale back the damage gain from Strength for melee and Agility for bows by approx 33%

Overall, these changes would create stronger characters across the board, however I believe it does so in a manner that would maintain the balance of the game.

A few possibilities I feel these changes would create
Anti-Caster tanks
More possibilities for kiting classes as well as more potential for anti-kite builds
Encourages boosting points across the board in all classes, as some of the less useful atts get a slight boost and more distribution is possible.
Encourages use of healing and support classes, as they're builds as of now typically require choosing between pure healer/support or pure offense, balanced builds currently seem to do very poorly.



Running short on time to make this post, I will edit in more notes at a later point and time, and I will also make a pro/con list based on what comments this idea receives.


Thank you,
Davoguha

 

[Bobby848]

That would be a great idea and re-scaling would take a while. I don't see this being implemented any time soon but i do love the idea.

 

[Delta788]

Sounds like a great idea.

 

[malikdanab]

My take on it:
Last time I checked, how the diminishing reworks is:
To increase a stat 1 point:
X = Stat amount
(X/2) rounding down.
So how it would work increasing 0 to 5:

• 0->1 = 1 Point
• 1->2 = 2 Points
• 2->3 = 2 Points
• 3->4 = 3 Points
• 4-->5 = 3 Points

Your system (would be...I think):

• 0->1 = 1 Point
• 1->2 = 1 Points
• 2->3 = 1 Points
• 3->4 = 1 Points
• 4-->5 = 2 Points

I like the concept of reducing the diminishing returns. I would allow for better customization. Though I don't agree with the STR nerf. Currently STR only adds 0.35 melee damage. Reducing it t 0.233333 doesn't seem necessary. Another problem is that the lessened diminishing returns would make the gap of power between low lvls and higher lvls even larger.

 

[Davoguha]

My take on it:
Last time I checked, how the diminishing reworks is:
To increase a stat 1 point:
X = Stat amount
(X/2) rounding down.

[EXAMPLE EXCLUDED]
I like the concept of reducing the diminishing returns. I would allow for better customization. Though I don't agree with the STR nerf. Currently STR only adds 0.35 melee damage. Reducing it t 0.233333 doesn't seem necessary. Another problem is that the lessened diminishing returns would make the gap of power between low lvls and higher lvls even larger.

http://herocraftonline.com/wiki/Attributes

If you check the chart on that page, the scale jumps around a little bit, I don't think its bound to the equation you mentioned. (Though it's quite close)

I noticed the same thing you mention about STR. I recommended the reduction to balance with the addition of more points (Dont want a pure STR build to do TOO much damage) Although what equals TOO much is pure speculation. Perhaps something in between, maybe change it to .3 even. Or heck, with the other suggestions, leaving it alone would probably be fine.

As far as the widening of the gap between low and higher levels. There is not doubt that that would be a definite result of this change. That may well be one of the deciding factors of whether or not a change like this may be implemented. Personally, I'm in favor of widening that gap. (The wider that gap is, the more potential for growth as you level)

Thanks for your opinion. ^.^

 

[malikdanab]

http://herocraftonline.com/wiki/Attributes

If you check the chart on that page, the scale jumps around a little bit, I don't think its bound to the equation you mentioned. (Though it's quite close)

I noticed the same thing you mention about STR. I recommended the reduction to balance with the addition of more points (Dont want a pure STR build to do TOO much damage) Although what equals TOO much is pure speculation. Perhaps something in between, maybe change it to .3 even. Or heck, with the other suggestions, leaving it alone would probably be fine.

As far as the widening of the gap between low and higher levels. There is not doubt that that would be a definite result of this change. That may well be one of the deciding factors of whether or not a change like this may be implemented. Personally, I'm in favor of widening that gap. (The wider that gap is, the more potential for growth as you level)

Thanks for your opinion. ^.^

When it comes to damage scaling I think it's best to leave it as it is. Adjusting the numbers would require changing the scaling for every effected skill. Besides that, I'm in full support in streamlining the numbers.

 

[Davoguha]

When it comes to damage scaling I think it's best to leave it as it is. Adjusting the numbers would require changing the scaling for every effected skill. Besides that, I'm in full support in streamlining the numbers.

Looking back, I'd have to agree, as long as Endy and Const receive the increases I recommended, it seems it would balance out rather appropriately.

 

[Moralsk]

If this happened I'd call for some rebalancing. If this happened and Ranger didn't get changed, their full agi build would be so imbalanced. Few other things come to mind but I'm not going to bring them up.

As for the idea itself though, seems neat to me. This would give room for some classes that don't have any free attributes points to spend into things like agility and constitution, depending on what their immediate needs are.

 

[Davoguha]

If this happened I'd call for some rebalancing. If this happened and Ranger didn't get changed, their full agi build would be so imbalanced. Few other things come to mind but I'm not going to bring them up.

As for the idea itself though, seems neat to me. This would give room for some classes that don't have any free attributes points to spend into things like agility and constitution, depending on what their immediate needs are.

That's pretty much what I am aiming for. I made some minor suggestions for the needed rebalancing at the bottom of the post, amongst which, a reduction in bow damage from agility, as well as attributes affects on skills all around to be slightly reduced. If you have any more specific ideas regarding this suggestion, I'd be glad to include them in the original post.

 

[Moralsk]

That's pretty much what I am aiming for. I made some minor suggestions for the needed rebalancing at the bottom of the post, amongst which, a reduction in bow damage from agility, as well as attributes affects on skills all around to be slightly reduced. If you have any more specific ideas regarding this suggestion, I'd be glad to include them in the original post.

Really would like you to emphasize the anti-kiting potential lol. I've played as 3 classes. Mainly Berserker, Shaman currently, and pyromancer. As a berserker I find it extremely difficult to fight many people because I just get kited. My combos don't work when the person I'm fighting just stays out of my reach and waits for undying will to end. I can't really afford to put much into agility because I already need str, con, end, and cha. As shaman I've found kiting is just way too fricken easy. I killed a dragoon and only lost like 1 1/2 hearts because I basically would just place a totem down then run around in circles. Kiting is a serious issue with balance currently imo.

 

[Davoguha]

Really would like you to emphasize the anti-kiting potential lol. I've played as 3 classes. Mainly Berserker, Shaman currently, and pyromancer. As a berserker I find it extremely difficult to fight many people because I just get kited. My combos don't work when the person I'm fighting just stays out of my reach and waits for undying will to end. I can't really afford to put much into agility because I already need str, con, end, and cha. As shaman I've found kiting is just way too fricken easy. I killed a dragoon and only lost like 1 1/2 hearts because I basically would just place a totem down then run around in circles. Kiting is a serious issue with balance currently imo.

I agree, I personally have never been fond of kiting, the dragoon in particular tends to be the greatest annoyance.

While this method is not completely effective, and there are still work arounds, by providing a larger pool of points, all classes will be able to sink points into a build of their choosing. If someone had the goal in particular to make their build un-kitable, they have the ability to put more points into agility. With this edit, it would be reasonable for even a wizard to put at least a handful of points into agility, while classes like ninja, ranger, and, yes, dragoon, could go completely overkill and become flimsy, yet fast, kites.

This also relates to why I proposed "nerf" to STR and AGI effects, while boosting CON and INT. I want to make it difficult to be both fast and strong. If your going all out for speed, you'll have to make a choice whether to boost defense or offense (or just be super freakin fast).

With the potential boost to Constitution magic defense, it'll become harder for magic classes to kite tank classes like the paladin (in fact, it would make it extremely difficult for anyone to 1v1 a well built tank, as tanks have more access to speed!)


In the end however, I believe kiting is a problem that is moreso related to skills and abilities of particular classes. And I'm not out to squash ranged combat, there is a difference between a class that can maintain distance and a class that has little choice but to constantly run. Personally to address kiting further, I believe we need more trap/stun/confuse spells, preferably some with some range.

 

[PreyArch]

Sounds pretty g for the most part

 

[Kydone]

I really don't agree with your suggestion, to debuff END and AGL, because some classes really need it. I personally play the Ninja and I think i would stop playing him, if there is no speedboost anymore. Classes, which need the mobility are forced to change their attributes. And I ask myself, why you want to make every class stronger, then mobility classes? Thats not really balancing in my oppinion.

 

[Moralsk]

I really don't agree with your suggestion, to debuff END and AGL, because some classes really need it. I personally play the Ninja and I think i would stop playing him, if there is no speedboost anymore. Classes, which need the mobility are forced to change their attributes. And I ask myself, why you want to make every class stronger, then mobility classes? Thats not really balancing in my oppinion.

It's not about making them stronger than mobility classes. It's about making mobility classes not so much stronger. Currently the mobile classes (rouges and dragoon basically) are superior in every way with the exception of armour. (Dragoons still have like 3rd highest armour in the game). In the case that a mobile class is losing, they can just kite their opponent if they're a warrior.

 

[Glacial_Reign]

Instead of putting more stuns in the game so a party could stun lock someone (we all know that isn't fun) maybe add some speed buff spells like windwalk with samurai but don't go overboard with it. That might help a little.

People don't understand why bard is needed in Herocraft. Very underrated class as what they can do.

My 2 cents

 

[Davoguha]

I really don't agree with your suggestion, to debuff END and AGL, because some classes really need it. I personally play the Ninja and I think i would stop playing him, if there is no speedboost anymore. Classes, which need the mobility are forced to change their attributes. And I ask myself, why you want to make every class stronger, then mobility classes? Thats not really balancing in my oppinion.

You bring up a good point. And I did some math on this last night. I'm gonna edit the suggestion a bit. The initial purpose for the de-buffs was to maintain a certain degree of existing balance. With the possibility of using more points, I imagined it would be necessary to to reduce damage increases to prevent OP "pure" builds.

My math pointed out almost the exact opposite. Under the 10::2 scale I suggested, the "max" a stat could be boosted to would go from approx 50, to approx 70. Which is not as bad of a jump as I imagined immediately.

As for "making every class stronger than mobility classes", yes. Mobility classes are meant to be fast, not strong. I'm OK with "Kiting" when the build is "squishy" but right now we have classes like Dragoon which is practically a DPS/Tank on crack, with a magic "run away" button, that no class can keep up with. That, is unbalance, in my opinion.

The END is nerfed a small amount to compensate for the extra points available, AGL, I am on the fence with, I feel like if the system was changed to provide more stat points, People who go "pure" AGL would be ridiculously fast. The idea behind the debuff is to make approximately the same speeds available now, available for the same allocation point cost.

I would also note, this change would also benefit mobility classes, by giving them the ability to spread their stats to become a more dangerous opponent, rather than counting on high-speed cut and run tactics.

People don't understand why bard is needed in Herocraft. Very underrated class as what they can do.

I'd have to agree 100% with that. Bard changes everything in team PvP

It's not about making them stronger than mobility classes. It's about making mobility classes not so much stronger. Currently the mobile classes (rouges and dragoon basically) are superior in every way with the exception of armour. (Dragoons still have like 3rd highest armour in the game). In the case that a mobile class is losing, they can just kite their opponent if they're a warrior.

Couldn't have said it much better myself, only that last sentence, they can kite way more than just warriors. As a necro, if a Goon runs away, I get 1-2 spells in, max, before he is out of range for combat. Goon's can kite anything, they can kite kites, its ludicrous.

 

[Moralsk]

You bring up a good point. And I did some math on this last night. I'm gonna edit the suggestion a bit. The initial purpose for the de-buffs was to maintain a certain degree of existing balance. With the possibility of using more points, I imagined it would be necessary to to reduce damage increases to prevent OP "pure" builds.

My math pointed out almost the exact opposite. Under the 10::2 scale I suggested, the "max" a stat could be boosted to would go from approx 50, to approx 70. Which is not as bad of a jump as I imagined immediately.

As for "making every class stronger than mobility classes", yes. Mobility classes are meant to be fast, not strong. I'm OK with "Kiting" when the build is "squishy" but right now we have classes like Dragoon which is practically a DPS/Tank on crack, with a magic "run away" button, that no class can keep up with. That, is unbalance, in my opinion.

The END is nerfed a small amount to compensate for the extra points available, AGL, I am on the fence with, I feel like if the system was changed to provide more stat points, People who go "pure" AGL would be ridiculously fast. The idea behind the debuff is to make approximately the same speeds available now, available for the same allocation point cost.

I would also note, this change would also benefit mobility classes, by giving them the ability to spread their stats to become a more dangerous opponent, rather than counting on high-speed cut and run tactics.


I'd have to agree 100% with that. Bard changes everything in team PvP



Couldn't have said it much better myself, only that last sentence, they can kite way more than just warriors. As a necro, if a Goon runs away, I get 1-2 spells in, max, before he is out of range for combat. Goon's can kite anything, they can kite kites, its ludicrous.

Lol yeah well Goon is the worst about that, they can basically kite everything.

 

[Kydone]

I think you all dont know, what kiting means. Only range classes can "kite" so a dragoon can just escape. So why you want to debuff a Ninja like me, who put attributes in 3 different attributes? I ask myself, why you want to debuff every mobility class, if you only wrote about the dragoon. Debuff the dragoon then, because its really stupid to debuff every mobility classes. You should think about some dragoon changes... thats all what I have to say

 

[Moralsk]

I think you all dont know, what kiting means. Only range classes can "kite" so a dragoon can just escape. So why you want to debuff a Ninja like me, who put attributes in 3 different attributes? I ask myself, why you want to debuff every mobility class, if you only wrote about the dragoon. Debuff the dragoon then, because its really stupid to debuff every mobility classes. You should think about some dragoon changes... thats all what I have to say

Kiting isn't just with ranged skills and bows. When I fight ninjas if they get low on health they just stay out of my reach, circle around, and continue hitting. Meanwhile all I can do is try to close in while they backflip and weave in and out. All of this time the ninja is simply using a sword or dagger(shears)

As to "who put attributes in 3 different attributes". Look out we got a bad ass here. As berserker I ->have to<- put into four different attributes. Strength, constitution, endurance, and charisma. Meanwhile I've seen many full strength build ninjas, full charisma bards, full agility rangers. Only rogue class that isn't like this is Runeblade.

 

[Davoguha]

I think you all dont know, what kiting means. Only range classes can "kite" so a dragoon can just escape. So why you want to debuff a Ninja like me, who put attributes in 3 different attributes? I ask myself, why you want to debuff every mobility class, if you only wrote about the dragoon. Debuff the dragoon then, because its really stupid to debuff every mobility classes. You should think about some dragoon changes... thats all what I have to say

I feel like you didn't read my post. If you read around a bit more carefully, you will see that these edits would benefit "spread builds" moreso than it will benefit "pure builds".

You would also read that I am in agreeance that damage does not necessarily need reduced with these edits.

Also to be found, I gave reasoning for the reductions for endurance and speed (The aim is to require a proportionally similar amount of allocation points to attain a particular level of speed/armor)

This thread is not meant to be specifically geared towards Dragoon at all, Dragoon is just the easiest to make an example of because it is a broken class.

It is also, not my intention to de-buff "mobility classes" overall, the goal of this thread is to allow for a greater degree of customization among all classes, preferably without damaging the balance of the game. Thus the list of *suggestions* which is open to debate.



Anyways,things are getting a bit off-topic around here. There are many areas of the game which require balancing adjustments, and this particular suggestion would require that a certain degree of rebalancing be done. Do you like the overall idea? Do you have a counter-suggestion to maintain an appropriate balance?

I do appreciate your comments. Thank you.


P.S. @Moralsk , he does have a small point there, kiting is ranged, melee users cut-n-run or slash-n-dash